miroslav Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Well...I mostly envy his ability to get that never-ending clean sustain...which is something I like on some songs...not on everything. But here's the thing...why bash Carlos for becoming the product that he is...? I don't think he's gone out of his way to "market" himself over the last 30 years and the last few years have been more of a "Carlos re-discovery" for a lot of people...courtesy of "Smooth/Supernatural"...and of course, the big Latin sound that came to the surface at that same time. I think he just kinda floated to the top of all that by defaultbeing the elder in the Rock/Latin genre. Heck...there are a LOT of over-rated performers out there that leave me scratching my head. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Here's the good news in all of this, WE know the difference! We know who the underated,overrated and rated correctly players are. The over rating is not done by US it is done for the most part by non-players and general listening audiences, it is a perception the by general public. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardtail Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by ellwood: Here's the good news in all of this, WE know the difference! We know who the underated,overrated and rated correctly players are. The over rating is not done by US it is done for the most part by non-players and general listening audiences, it is a perception the by general public. Yep! Case in point: C.C. DeVille. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big G Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Real good guitar player but he doesnt rock my world, dont listen to him in any big way if totally honest he bores me a little Love life, some twists and turns are more painful than others, but love life..... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=592101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarPlayerFL Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Positive points for Santana: 1) Unique tone. 2) Usually good tunes. Negative point for Santana: 1) Limited musical vocabulary. A Jazz/Chord Melody Master-my former instructor www.robertconti.com (FKA GuitarPlayerSoCal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound Dog Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 The guy gets extra credit for giving the Mesa Boogie its name. Yum, Yum! Eat em up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by MILLO: He wasn't the first one combining those styles and won't be the last.Who was first before Santana? I never heard them, and I suspect most folks would say the same. There have always been latino influences in American popular music, from songs like "Besame Mucho"(cha cha BOOM!) to "Brazil", and people like Louis Prima, Xavier Cugat, and Desi Arnaz in the 50's, to the whole jazz scene with Dizzy Gillespie working Afro-Cuban rhythms into his stuff, and Stan Getz doing bossa nova with Astrud Gilberto in the early 60's. But no one I ever heard of put it together the way Carlos did, or sold it to as large an audience. If you heard of someone else who did, who were they? Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar55 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by miroslav: Well...I mostly envy his ability to get that never-ending clean sustain...which is something I like on some songs...not on everything........ Hmmm..I think you better listen more closely. Santana's sustain has alway been very saturated, high-gain (but maybe with different tonal characteristics than most high gain shredders). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gifthorse Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Oddly enough, I'd much rather listen to the guy he mentored, Neil Schon, than Carlos Totally agree with that statement! Also, I watched some hour biography on Carlos and he has really used his wealth to help people. He is an admirable person on many levels. This documentary I saw on him last year claimed that he played jazz too. That simply isn't true. The music they showed him playing wasn't even close to jazz. It had 1 tonal center the whole time. If thats the case than I am a jazz player too.... http://flagshipmile.dmusic.com/ http://www.myspace.com/gifthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejeeber Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by flagshipmile: This documentary I saw on him last year claimed that he played jazz too. Sheesh they should've hired a player/consultant for the film who'd call 'em on dumb gaffes like that. Although they'd be asking for real trouble if they hired Yze. Just a pinch between the geek and chum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarPlayerFL Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by flagshipmile: This documentary I saw on him last year claimed that he played jazz too. That simply isn't true. The music they showed him playing wasn't even close to jazz. It had 1 tonal center the whole time. If thats the case than I am a jazz player too.... He probably thought that, since Miles Davis (one of his heros) has played modal tunes, he could too and he's now Jazz. The thing is, Miles could really play over changes in his younger days with Parker....something that's way out of Carlos' league. A Jazz/Chord Melody Master-my former instructor www.robertconti.com (FKA GuitarPlayerSoCal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel E. Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I was thinking about this thread as I listened to "Amigos" on my iPod yesterday. While Carlos was the star, he was still a member of a band. And a really great band at that. Quite a number of Santana's songs didn't have solo guitar sections. I think a lot of people would agree that one of the highlights of Santana's Woodstock performance was Michael Shrieve's drum solo. Carlos Santana as a solo artist simply isn't as good as the band Santana. This is nothing new - look at Paul McCartney. Or Jimmy Page. Or Thom Yorke. "You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A String Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by Gabriel E.: I think a lot of people would agree that one of the highlights of Santana's Woodstock performance was Michael Shrieve's drum solo.Yeah, not to take this off topic, but holy crap! how old was that kid? 16? That was one hell of a hot drum solo. Blows me away every time I see it. Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by Bejeeber: Originally posted by flagshipmile: This documentary I saw on him last year claimed that he played jazz too. Sheesh they should've hired a player/consultant for the film who'd call 'em on dumb gaffes like that. Although they'd be asking for real trouble if they hired Yze. They were probably talking abut the stuff he did McLaughlin and Alice Coltrane. It was jazz, more or less. It was also the worst stuff he ever did, to my way of thinking. But, I guess is you lie down with jazz players you get up with fleas...or something... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejeeber Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by Picker: ......if you lie down with jazz players you get up with fleas..... HEY!!!! Just a pinch between the geek and chum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A String Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by Bejeeber: Originally posted by Picker: ......if you lie down with jazz players you get up with fleas..... HEY!!!! He means the good fleas. The smart, talented ones that jump through hoops at fleas circuses. Trust me, you wake up those those fleas and you're in good company. Craig Stringnetwork on Facebook String Network Forum My Music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Ahhhh it's not the jazz guys we worry about..it's those POOR FLEAS!! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Don't they have a collar for that? Don Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejeeber Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 What, the fleas wear "jazz collars" in order to keep jazz pests from lying down with them??!! Just a pinch between the geek and chum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gifthorse Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I have told this story before but apparently my cousin met Carlos and John Macglaughlin on tour and they took her with them for like 2 weeks!! She said they were both gentleman and treated her great. I am sure there was ALOT of partying going down. I don't hate Carlos. I just think he gets too much credit and is like the peoples guitarist or something. He is a decent rock player, but when people start saying he plays jazz too and that he is one of the greats of all time. I think of the greats. Like from that era Jeff Beck.. To me Beck is still amazing. He is timelessly good. He has incredible feel. I remember Diamond Dust posted those concerts from 68 last year. I was blown away at Beck's playing and tone. He was so far ahead of his time it is ridiculous. His tone almost sounds modern in 1968!! Beck also cares, and he kept growing as a player. http://flagshipmile.dmusic.com/ http://www.myspace.com/gifthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by Bejeeber: Originally posted by Picker: ......if you lie down with jazz players you get up with fleas..... HEY!!!! Perhaps a better way to put that would be if you hang with jazz players enough, some people might mistake you for one. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers there... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 It's true. People are often judged by how they hang out with. I happen to work a couple of blocks from Grand Central Station in NYC, and there are lots of musicians who play there for tips. Some of them are talented professionals, and a lot of them are my friends. I come up and drop a dollar or two in the pot and chit chat for a second. The point being, if someone sees me talking with a classical violinist or a jazz sax player, will they mistake me for one? If they DO, I wouldn't consider it an INSULT! I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, except for those that need ruffled. What is the line, ruffles have ridges, or vice versa..? PS I might hang out with these guys, but I don't lie down with them, fleas or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by Eric Iverson: ... but I don't lie down with them, fleas or not! I don't blame you... ...the floor is kinda' hard in Grand Central Station... Do they play any Santana hits...? miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hound Dog Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Originally posted by A String: Originally posted by Bejeeber: Originally posted by Picker: ......if you lie down with jazz players you get up with fleas..... HEY!!!! He means the good fleas. The smart, talented ones that jump through hoops at fleas circuses. Trust me, you wake up those those fleas and you're in good company. Pee-Wee Runt and his All-Flea Dixieland Band from the Droopy cartoon! Yum, Yum! Eat em up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Holy Schnikie! Santana w/ Miles' band incl. Robben Ford. I'm happy all over. I ain't gettin' into the Santana good/Santana bad thing. I'm obviously a fan. Some years ago, a friend of mine, not a musician, in his cups, asked me, "Ya wanna hear the greates' f*ckin' guitar solo of all time?" I said of course. He staggered over to his stereo, made a selection, and sat back. Santana's "Europa" came out of the machine. I agreed with my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Taster Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Yup Europa (both the live and studio) is one of the best solos in history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Originally posted by Eric Iverson: The point being, if someone sees me talking with a classical violinist or a jazz sax player, will they mistake me for one?Okay, final revision; If you PLAY with jazzers, classical musicians, polka bands, klezmer combos, cowboy groups, Norwegian choirs, punk rockers, etc and so on ad infitum often enough, folks might think you are one of them, too. Unless you play with all the above all the time and everyone sees you doing it...I'm getting a headache... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Taster Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 Sorry to open a can of worms, but my original premise in the first post is supported by other objective observations in cyberland http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=1520156&postcount=11 That thread in that forum WAS NOT intitiated by me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruupi Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 You may have a point yZecounsel but I think your missing the big picture. First Santana is probably used to fronting a band and relies on others to follow his que. He is most likely stoned most of the time as well. His music is about expression rather than academics. He certainly has a recognizable sound, both in his guitar playing and style of music. Thats more than 99% of us can say. My soundclick site: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=397188 My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/gruupi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gifthorse Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Pretty cool solo http://flagshipmile.dmusic.com/ http://www.myspace.com/gifthorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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