Santana - overrated

[Tone Taster]

Okay, so this video was from the mid-80's so maybe Santana has learned alot since then about how to interact with other musicians

 

but in this jam, 3 violations occur

 

1. he is barely locking in w/the rhythm section

 

2. He steps all over Bob Berg's sax solo for like 4 measures

 

3. When Robben Ford iniates trading 4's, Santana ignores that and plays for however long he wants and ignores the form.

 

It appears that mr. Santana "doesn't play well with others"

 

 

Okay, now post an audio/video example which demonstartes otherwise which was stated

[souvenir]

I bet that Bob Berg was thinking "wtf is this guy doin?"

[Hardtail]

Well, the very first thing I noticed is Miles Davis's disconnection from the audience. There's thousands of people out there and he's in a corner playing to the percussion section.

 

Miles was a great musician; no doubt. From what I know of him though, he was such a dick! His solo was great though... as they always were.

 

1. Santana did look a little lost while comping during the trumpet and sax solos. Actually, he looked a little bored.

 

2. I think Berg's solo went a little too long. Maybe Santana stepped on him a little to get him to shut up. I don't know. I wasn't on stage during that performance.

 

3. From what I saw from the first few bars of the guitar solo, Santana knew he played a little too long and signalled Ford as in to say... sorry, got carried away.. it's your turn. Other than that, I liked the trade offs these guys did.

 

I strongly disagree with your assertion that he doesn't play well with others. He's played quite well with some real big shots in his time.

 

I think you've taken one or two "bad" things he did on stage in this case and made it a reason to assert that he's no good.

 

Sorry... I'm not buying it.

[mdrs]

I forgive him! Carlos is incredible. Every time he plays anywhere near where I live, I go. His "mistakes" are at a level I dream of playing at!

 

Here's another clip for you Santana fans;

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7OjaltmQiLY&mode=related&search=santana

 

Don

[Tone Taster]

Edit:

 

He answered your question. That does not give you the right to a personal attack, however subtle it may be.

 

Content removed.

[Hardtail]

Ok, once again, you know everything and no one here knows anything.

 

I'm not spending this beautiful Sunday arguing with you.

 

I should have known better than to contribute to a thread that "you start" but sometimes it takes me a few times to learn something.

 

Happy trails back.

[Tone Taster]

Edit:

 

Content removed.

[mdrs]

yZe,

 

Good post, in that you will create a lively discussion here.....

 

In all seriousness, it is difficult for me to see how anyone could attack Carlos Santana's musicianship (or ability to "get alone with others", or whatever).

 

The man has played with everyone over the years. He is quite literally a guitar icon, playing at a level few have approached.

 

He's played rock, latin, jazz....you name it, he can play it. Every time I've seen him (first time was just before he joined forces with John McLaughlin circa 1974 or so), up to about two years ago, he's always packed a top notch band, with a rhythum section equal to any. I've never sensed that he didn't play well with others.

 

To the contrary, in an era where live music all too often has a canned feel (i.e. bands playing exactly what they did on the record, without improvisation) Carlos is constantly changing, and live he and his band jam and improvise with the best of them.

 

On many occasions that I've been lucky enough to see Carlos live, I HAVE had the distinct feeling that he was plugged directly into a higher power!!! I know he plays Mesa and Dumble amps, but sometimes they seem to be located in the heavens. I am being totally serious here. He can sound locked in to a higher musical source I'd like to tap into myself!!

 

For a recent example of Carlos getting alone fairly well with others in a live setting, check out Clapton's Crossroads Concert DVD...Carlos and Eric got along pretty well, I'd say!!

 

Don

[Tone Taster]

Okay, in my initial post, I did take in to account that it was in the mid 80's and that maybe santana has improved in regards to jamming with others

 

However, Santana's playing in the miles vid is a perfect example of how not to jam, and it can be learned from

 

You have presented a documentary released later, which demonstrates that Santana has a clue how to trade solos with others

 

I would like to see that to see if he really interacts or is a stage hog like in the Miles vid

 

Now, as far as his playing goes - Listen to Moonflower from 1977

 

Listen to him now

 

He sounded better in 1977

 

It's like he has been playing the same licks for almost 30 years and hasn't really progressed much

 

It sounds good, but nothing new

 

Could we look at it like Ice Cream?

 

Like if you get Ben & Jerry's Chunky Monkey Ice CREAM?

 

It still tastes the same since when it came out?

[mdrs]

by the way yZe....that video is a band put together for a fund raising concert, and I'd imagine that they likely did not have much rehersal time.

 

You don't expect to see a false start in a live improv setting? Get real, man. That is part of improvisation, and will happen. Mistakes are human, and actually show that the music being played is REAL.

 

It strikes me as just plain silly to condem the interactive skills (not to mention the rhythum guitar skills) of one of the absolute best players that ever touched a guitar.

 

Of course, that's just my humble opinion.

 

Don

[Tone Taster]

A-string

 

I responded to Hard tails posts on a point by point basis and did not attack him

 

Please provide your grounds for this A-String

 

Oh- that's right - you have the GOD button and can delete this post and keep it canned and don't have to provide your grounds for editing my post

 

Hard Tail numbered his responses and I quote blocked/responded to each one in the order he did it

 

For you to show your cause - you would have to show how each one of my responses constituted a "veiled" personal attack

[Phillydor]

Me too - I'm thinking wtf as well.

Be nice if someone could re-post this video and give it the credit it deserves, what a wonderful thing to find at 11.30pm on this cold wintry night.

[mdrs]

yZe

 

Please don't take my comments as a personal attack. They were not meant to be personal. Your criticisms of Carlos just don't make sense to me at all. That is not meant to be personal in any way.

 

Don

[A String]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

A-string

 

I responded to Hard tails posts on a point by point basis and did not attack him

 

Please provide your grounds for this A-String

 

Oh- that's right - you have the GOD button and can delete this post and keep it canned and don't have to provide your grounds for editing my post

 

Hard Tail numbered his responses and I quote blocked/responded to each one in the order he did it

 

For you to show your cause - you would have to show how each one of my responses constituted a "veiled" personal attack

You said you disliked Santana and asked people to prove you wrong. When Hardtail responded, you insulted him. He has as much right to defend Santana as you do to put them down. There was no need for the personal attack.

[Tone Taster]

In my response to Hard Tail's reply #1

I said

"Because he is not really that good of a rhythm guitarist"

 

A string - where's the veiled personal attack on Hard Tail?

 

In my response to # 2, I will boldface what could be construed as an attack, and now I do see it as unnecessary

But it is just one sentence which could have been deleted:

 

I said

"That would be a reasonable statement with logical grounds if Santana didn't step all over his solo AT THE VERY ONSET OF BERG"s solo.

 

So if he was trying to get him to shut up, it would've been at the end - doncha think? Or were you getting emotional? NOTE: this was unecessary

 

Oh, and being on stage with the band at the time as a sort of a premise for implying that that is the only way to totally accurately ascertain whether or not he stepped all over berg's solo at the onset is unfounded and groundless, because one can plainly see and hear Santana totally step all over him.

 

Nice try, though "

 

A String - besides the above sentence what else in the entire paragraph constituted a personal attack?

 

 

In my response to #3, I said

"Okay, that's cool, but he did it more than just once. Unless he was chronically employing the Britney Spears theory

"oops I did it again" "

 

A string - where's the veiled personal attack on Hard Tail?

 

When Hard tail said he strongly disagrees, I said

"Yeah, he does great when it's just him soloing.

So perhaps I was too general in my assertion

 

As it stands, unless evidence is presented to the contrary;

Santana had no idea how to trade solos with top eschelon musicians or is sensitive to the order of soloists onstage "

 

A - String, where's the veiled personal attack?

 

"In my last response, I said

More than 2 bad things, but nice hyperbole - anyway you can totally ignore what I said and go ahead and step all over people's toes, keep bad rhythm, and not be sensitive to other soloists at the next jam session you attend if you so voluntarily choose to do so

 

Happy trails . . . "

 

O.K, I can see how this can be construed as such - But I have never heard Hard Tail play and I had set up my premise early on

 

In the second post which you deleted, I stated my grounds for the above was based on the fact that the vid demonstrates HOW NOT TO DO things, and that he could learn from it, but since he disagrees - He is ignoring a lesson

 

I learned from that, just like anyone else could.

 

I wasn't implying anything towards Hard Tails musicianship because I HAVE NEVER HEARD HIM PLAY. I believe that we all could benefit from watching that vid as an example HOW NOT to play - but if we ignore these things - we can fall victim to bad practices in live situations.

 

That was the point I was making in the last sentence of my reply to Hard tail

[A String]

You took offence to Hardtails response and took jabs at him for it:

-were you getting emotional?

-Nice try, though

-nice hyperbole - anyway you can totally ignore what I said and go ahead and step all over people's toes, keep bad rhythm, and not be sensitive to other soloists at the next jam session you attend if you so voluntarily choose to do so

 

Happy trails . . .

 

Whether you've heard him play or not, those responses are still insulting.

[miroslav]

Well...this thread is quickly turning into scolding session

I think people need to step back just a bit and stop taking themselvesand othersso seriously.

 

As far as Santana

Dont know how well he jams with othersbut his tonethat endless warm sustain, without a pinch of any grit

is priceless!

 

Whenever Im looking for big sustain in my leadsI ALWAYS think of Santanas toneand try to model mine that way.

 

I think he has had a signature sound that has survivied throughout all these years...much more so than a lot of other big-name players.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by A String:

You took offence to Hardtails response and took jabs at him for it:

-were you getting emotional?

-Nice try, though

-nice hyperbole - anyway you can totally ignore what I said and go ahead and step all over people's toes, keep bad rhythm, and not be sensitive to other soloists at the next jam session you attend if you so voluntarily choose to do so

 

Happy trails . . .

 

Whether you've heard him play or not, those responses are still insulting.

O.K., as far as your accusation as me taking offense, I believe that his response was more emotional than logical and I could've been more reasonable in explaining why.

 

He stated that Santana may have stepped on toes to get the sax player to shut up for playing too long, when in reality, it was at the onset of the solo

 

To, me that was both an illogical and false premise, thus constituting my grounds for that being an emotional response rather than a logical one

 

the "Nice try" was an implication of him making such an illogical statement in order to discredit where I was coming from.

 

The "hyperbole" was my assertion that he was exaggerating in that there were just "one or 2 things" when I stated more.

 

But his statement was directed at me in that he was implying that I was "making a mountain out of a molehill"

[Phillydor]

He's always raved about Miles' tone, and I think that more than anything is what was driving him that evening. He might have been trading riffs with Robben ford - but I'd say he was pretty well mesmerised by Miles the whole time.

[A String]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

But his statement was directed at me in that he was implying that I was "making a mountain out of a molehill"

I can't say for sure what Hardtails intent was, but I gathered that he was saying you were incorrect. I don't think he did it in a derogatory way, however, I think your response was derogatory. You can tell he took offence to your first statement by his response to your first statement.

 

I don't think you've purposely set out to be insulting, but it certainly came across that way.

[mdrs]

right on Miro .....Santana sustain is something I'm constantly striving for.

 

If you have a chance, check out a Fuchs Over Drive Supreme amp. Andy Fuchs' ODS and a sweet neck humbucker is as close as I've come, to date. I'd LOVE to "drive" a Dumble, but unfortunately have not had the chance yet.

 

http://www.fuchsaudiotechnology.com/

 

Don

[mdrs]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0066209579/qid=1153060038/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-6201980-7832704?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007EDX3K/qid=1153060084/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/104-6201980-7832704?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

 

 

Don

[Big Red 67]

Great tone, great licks. Sometimes he does get boring. It is a great night, not so great night thing when it comes to him.

[Phillydor]

I've always been a big Carlos fan, but the last album was very disappointing - more of the same. I listened once and tossed it to the bottom of the pile. The guy needs a change of direction - a jazz album would be nice.

[A String]

I've always felt that Carlos was an innovator that never grew. He used scales in cool ways that made you instantly recognize him. Admittedly, I haven't heard much from him since his Santana days, but it seems like he never grew as a musician. Like he never progressed beyond what he was.

[Ricardo.]

butt wat about teh woodstockz?!

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by A String:

I've always felt that Carlos was an innovator that never grew. He used scales in cool ways that made you instantly recognize him. Admittedly, I haven't heard much from him since his Santana days, but it seems like he never grew as a musician. Like he never progressed beyond what he was.

Like I was saying earlier, It is my OPINION that he peaked at Moonflower live in 1977. He has been playing more or less like that ever since

 

Kinda like Gilmour in the same way since the Wall 1979

 

But the Ice cream concept comes into mind

 

Haagen Daz Macadamia Brittle tastes great everytime and has tasted the same since it has come out

 

I guess it comes down to, do you like more different flavors, or do you get the same one everytime and are satisfied with it?

[Fumblyfingers]

Wow, this got heated up fast...I just looked at it for the first time.

 

Ok watched the vid.....as is usualin jams there was a little confusion as to who was "going" when it came to the sax solo. Carlos started then realized he was stepping and seemed to pull out slowly and kinda play in the holes rather than stop abruptly. Then he stayed quiet.I'm okay with that.

 

As for the trading fours so he got fired and kicked in the wah and went longer....so what? I doubt Robben gave a hoot. Then it seemed that rather than just trade fours, which can also be boring, it seems he was trying to just get a call and answer type thing going that would culminate in both guys just wailing together. Robben did not seem to go for it, but still seemed cool with the whole thing.

 

For a jam I think it was great. That sax solo was awesome!Nice video.

 

I saw Miles with Robben at the Hollywood Bowl Playboy Jazz festival many years ago. For at least a 1/4 maybe even 1/2 the set Miles played with his back to the audience, standing in front of an amp stack. That was his thing, it bothered me not a bit as what I was hearing was phenomenal.

 

I saw Carlos' band a year or so ago at a private function at the Palladium in Hollywood there were only less than 100 guests, my wife and I stood right in front of him at the stage. The show was friggen great! The vocalist was hot and everyone just played their ass off.I was very impressed myself.

[musicalhair]

Here is what I'm getting out of listening with out watching and watching it like 4 times.

 

Santana is talking with Robben, interacting and looking around early on while Miles is soloing. As Miles finishes playing, Carlos walks up-- with his head down looking what his feet are doing-- to kick on the boost or what ever it is on his pedal board. He clearly thinks it is his turn to solo. He's been chatting away with Robben and even nodded to Miles when he walked past on his own way to a heart-to-heart with the drummer. He definately thought he was on.

 

When he kicks in, does he hear the sax? What does he think he's hearing when those first notes from the sax, which might just be a continuation of the comping stuff he was playing s Miles solo ends and that trasitional riff is played before the next solo. Once both Bob and Carlos begin soloing there is toe-stepping going on big time. Once Bob kicks into a particular sequence he plays-- which his phrasing up to that point sort of was building towards-- Carlos starts to back off, and trys to add fills which to me is just an attempt to blend his mistake into the background instead of leaving the audience with not much more than a complete drop out which would make no "sense" if the stepping on toes part of the sax solo was to be part of the performance-- and short of time machine it was now part of the performance.

 

There is the chance that Carlos can't hear Bob and only when Bob is standing still righ up front bouncing and doing his thing that Carlos figures out what he is doing. I think that is less likely (but still possible) and that he finally hears Bob's line turn into something that he needs to get out of the way of.

 

What I notice is that while we hear Carlos "whaling" away Bob doesn't look over. Bob builds his idea up from short phrases, like you would do when there is the sonic space left open so you could actually expect the audience to hear it. He doesn't try to out blast Santana or to establish parity with him or play lines that would fit,or even just sustain a note till he figures out what is going on. I bet he doesn't eve hear Santana. I bet Santana is not in the monitors over there. I'm also not so sure Santana hears Bob initially, but I suspect it is because his focus is elsewhere and what he is hearing from Bob fits in with the background initially.

 

What he does once the stepping is self evident, is nothing more than blending his playing into the background. It is a legitimate way to deal with a problem on stage, and nothing short of a time machine would fix the problem.

 

It is really possible that neither Bob nor Carlos heard each other well at the start of the solo and maybe not at all, things go wrong all the time on stage and I'd not be surprised if Carlos being just added to the band isn't in everyone monitor nor would I be surprised if plenty of guys didn't want very much in their monitors.

 

As for the going into "overtime" while trading fours. Robben clearly expected space to jump back in. The "fours" was not exactly well established, but based on the line Robben played before Santana jumped back in I think "fours" were established and that is on Santana. The guitar solo did start basically the same as the sax solo though IMHO. I think Carlos wanted to trade short phrases and to play simultaneously with Robben. Also Carlos might not have jumped in at the end of Robben's intial (and really the only "four" in their combined solos) based on time but maybe looking at Robben and getting a visual cue.

 

I think this one vid can't be an indictment of Carlos' ability to play with others for the following reasons: he has always had a big band thus plays with others, always gave huge space to the keyboardist and shared space with Neil Schon and John McLaughlin. I saw Carlos and his band only a few years after this show at my college and the rapport between all the musicians on stage was the best I have ever seen for any band.

[Gifthorse]

Yze, I won't even comment. You knwo what I think!!