Music Player Network
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique #3028577 02/12/20 02:23 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
B
Bif_ Offline OP
Platinum Member
OP Offline
Platinum Member
B
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385


I'm mesmerized by this young talent! I don't understand how she's processing everything that she's doing, all while singing and playing.

I know she's doing some live looping and firing off recorded loops. Can anyone explain more about her process?


Kurzweil PC3X, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
KC Island
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028610 02/12/20 01:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 699
B
BbAltered Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
B
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 699
Thanks for sharing: I enjoyed her performance. I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm hearing her voice, a lead line she plays live on the large Roli, a sort of bass sound she plays live on the smaller Roli, a tuned percussion sound she plays live on the MPX, and a drum loop(s) you can hear clearly when she is not playing the Rolis or the MPX and just singing. There are some background pads playing when she does her lead solo. We can hear some sort of processing of the vocals (and maybe other sounds as well) that may be live, but that may have been done post-recording. And then there is the dog.

What is your question?


J.S. Bach Well Tempered Klavier
The collected works of Scott Joplin
Ray Charles Genius plus Soul
Charlie Parker Omnibook
Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life
Weather Report Mr. Gone
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028621 02/12/20 02:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Toano88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
I have been contemplating getting an MPC One for the same kind of setup. I wonder if this old dog can still learn a few new tricks? It's really heartening to see talented young people using all this technology to perform. She obviously can play, she is not just pressing 'play'.


On a side note I liked when the dog came and listened. My two dogs do the same thing. When I'm at my piano they come and lay down at either side of my piano bench!


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028622 02/12/20 03:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,332
Theo Verelst Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,332
She appears to have a well working method of imparting her frustrations to the listeners....

T

Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028623 02/12/20 03:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 679
samuelblupowitz Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 679
A performance like that requires a lot of setup and a lot of practice. Live looping is no easy feat -- one of my bandmates as a solo live show he'll bust out sometimes that's all a capella live looping, using his guitar effects rig to process his voice for drums, bass, etc. Add in all the different drum pads (your time and feel have to be on point to make that work), plus the Roli bass and lead synth (which requires some shedding to play fluidly and in tune, speaking from experience), and you've got very cool, very impressive modern pop performance setup that shows off chops and artistry/ingenuity as well as production and songcraft. I can get into that!

As far as her specific process for the looping and processing, you should reach out to her via her YouTube channel and see if she gets back to you!


Samuel B. Lupowitz
Composer. Arranger. Musician. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028624 02/12/20 03:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Toano88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Quote
Add in all the different drum pads (your time and feel have to be on point to make that work), plus the Roli bass and lead synth (which requires some shedding to play fluidly and in tune, speaking from experience), and you've got very cool, very impressive modern pop performance setup that shows off chops and artistry/ingenuity as well as production and songcraft. I can get into that!


I totally agree! What impressed my was how she seamlessly played all the parts. You could tell she put a lot of work into that. On a side note I just pre-ordered an MPC One. It's totally as an experiment to see just exactly what can be done with it. It may not work for me, but at my age what's life if you just do the same thing over and over?


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028625 02/12/20 03:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,660
J. Dead Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club
Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,660
Here's another artist with a similar method that I've been following for a while named Kawehi. She has a lot of covers on YouTube using looping and playing various instruments as well as using her own voice. Her is one of her originals, as you can see, building the loops as she goes, walking down the street with only what she can carry in a backpack and strap to her body:



Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028626 02/12/20 03:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Toano88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
She is Borg you will be assimilated, resistance is futile. I liked the weird looks she got from some people!


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028657 02/12/20 07:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,001
R
Randelph Offline
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,001
Neon Vines was super impressive, keeping so many plates spinning. However, if I was watching her live, or even on you tube, I'd appreciate more singing and playing, and less managing SO many pieces of technology! She looked under the gun, not relaxed and enjoying herself. But yeah, she's great.

That's why many singers have a partner who's dealing with the tech and some of the playing.


Korg PA 1000 / NS 88 Classic / iRig Keys I/O 49
Win10 laptop i7 8GB 500GB
Yamaha melodica, alto recorder / Congas
Roland Street Cube EX / QSC K10, K8.2 / SS V.3 / Klipsch KMC 3
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028666 02/12/20 07:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Toano88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Yes, one of reasons I just ordered the MPC One is I have drummer that regularly does about 3-4 rap songs a night. I found that a couple of times that we had another drummer sit in during those songs our drummer is very good at working the audience with a wireless mic. So in addition to using it as an experiment to see what I can do with it. I want to setup those songs and be able to fire up the beats and fire off individual clips while playing my keys. That way he can get the audience pumped up . We play a lot of different genre, yet we are instrumentally a trio. The more I can add while also keeping the audience entertained, I'm up for it. It looks from research this thing has a big learning curve. I don't want to do full on tracks but loops and samples. I also have several modules I would like to sample and use without having to haul it and set it up. For instance my D-05 and Radius.
For a few songs I think this could really be a great addition, I don't mind being the tech guy.

Last edited by Toano88; 02/12/20 07:47 PM.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028671 02/12/20 08:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,281
marino Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,281

I like when someone is doing most of the looping work with his voice.
This guy looks talented to me:



Then there's this classic from Imogen Heap:


Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028725 02/13/20 02:35 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,503
S
stoken6 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
S
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,503
The artist in the OP's video is lip-synching, surely? And if the singing ain't real, what else isn't real?

Cheers, Mike.


AX48.PM351.FC7.VFP2
One or two keyboards.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: stoken6] #3028803 02/13/20 02:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,491
Synthoid Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,491
Originally Posted by stoken6
The artist in the OP's video is lip-synching, surely? And if the singing ain't real, what else isn't real?.


Well, I didn't want to say anything but was curious about that myself.

She kinda reminds me of Famke Janssen from the GoldenEye Bond film.

[Linked Image from borgdotcom.files.wordpress.com]



When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028810 02/13/20 02:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Toano88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Actually it does appear the vocal is heavily processed you can hear the auto tune. I would guess she is singing to a doubled vocal track. I believe its quite obvious she has a bunch of pre-recorded tracks in the mix.
Its definitely NOT just looping. How much is live and how much is pre-produced? It's hard to tell. If you want to do just looping the Roland Loop Station in the Kawehi video would be a much better. The MPC has looping but its more of an after thought to tick off a box. Not the best tool for that. This video explains all the things the MPC One is capable of.

I'm interested in the sampling,sequencing, clips and automation and how I can use them in a trio without going into full on produced tracks. When I ordered it my sweetwater rep called me with a bunch of questions since I had never ordered anything like it previously and went into exactly how I wanted to use it. And I told him it was a complete experiment and something my drummer and I have discussed at length. So when I get it early March it should be interesting. Again it might not work for me and end up on craigslist.

Last edited by Toano88; 02/13/20 02:56 PM.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: stoken6] #3028816 02/13/20 03:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 679
samuelblupowitz Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 679
Originally Posted by stoken6
The artist in the OP's video is lip-synching, surely? And if the singing ain't real, what else isn't real?
I don't think the possibility that she overdubbed the final vocal later diminishes the talent displayed in her process at all -- there's plenty of processing on the vocal anyway, whether or not that's happening in real time. I did the same thing when I tracked with my band last weekend, and we replaced the live vocal with a comp of several later takes. I was only playing one keyboard and singing at the time!

She's pretty clearly playing those Seaboard parts, and hitting those pads in time. If she made some fixes later, I don't think that's so out of step with the more traditional filmed in-studio performance that we often see from bands.


Samuel B. Lupowitz
Composer. Arranger. Musician. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Toano88] #3028831 02/13/20 04:47 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,980
Wastrel Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,980
Originally Posted by Toano88
Actually it does appear the vocal is heavily processed you can hear the auto tune.

It seems to me that there is an emerging generation of music listeners/consumers that have seldom if ever been exposed to vocals that are not auto tuned. It would probably sound funny to them.
I wonder if there are talented kids in under developed areas who have trained themselves to mimic the autotuned sound without the hardware that they don't have access to. My guess is there are.


Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
-Mark Twain
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028833 02/13/20 04:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 7,027
O
Outkaster Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
O
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 7,027
Yes go to Jamaica. The ingrown quality and musicality is like anything I have ever seen. A lot better than people around here.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


noblevibes.com

Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028843 02/13/20 05:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,164
MathOfInsects Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,164
That's cool. I am not sure that we are seeing anything being played or sung live, if I'm honest, but I'd go watch someone do even a stripped down version of that any time.

I have a love-from-afar relationship with the Seaboard. I really like the fluid expressivity of it, but can't ever seem to make it sing for me without generating finger pain and fatigue. Also, does it control other boards? I enjoy my laptop-free stage set-up and can't see ever fully converting.


"
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028847 02/13/20 05:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
Toano88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,757
The Rolo Seabord transmits midi over bluetooth and has USB. Any board you wanted to control would either accept USB or Bluetooth midi without a host (Kronos?). Or you would need a device that would need a device such as the Kenton MIDI Host MkII


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: MathOfInsects] #3028857 02/13/20 05:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 679
samuelblupowitz Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 679
Originally Posted by MathOfInsects
I have a love-from-afar relationship with the Seaboard. I really like the fluid expressivity of it, but can't ever seem to make it sing for me without generating finger pain and fatigue. Also, does it control other boards? I enjoy my laptop-free stage set-up and can't see ever fully converting.
It's an acquired taste. I love mine, but I've also had those same battles with it. The need for MPE compatibility makes it a little finicky to get behaving the way you want it to depending on the sound source, but I know there are some boards and modules that are MPE compatible that folks have used it to control. It's very rarely a plug-and-play experience in my opinion, but when you find that right combination of sound and part, it is HUGELY fun to play.


Samuel B. Lupowitz
Composer. Arranger. Musician. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Toano88] #3028947 02/14/20 01:34 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
B
Bif_ Offline OP
Platinum Member
OP Offline
Platinum Member
B
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
Originally Posted by Toano88
Actually it does appear the vocal is heavily processed you can hear the auto tune.


There's a nice interview with her here. CLONK In it she says "I start by pulling up an instance of iZotope’s VocalSynth 2, which applies a bit of pitch correction, subtle harmony undertones/doubling to fatten up the vocal, and an almost undetectable amount of distortion and compuvox [glitchy, “computerized” sounds] to help the vocal cut through the mix. VocalSynth 2 might be my favorite plug-in of all time."


Originally Posted by Toano88
I believe its quite obvious she has a bunch of pre-recorded tracks in the mix. Its definitely NOT just looping. How much is live and how much is pre-produced?


Right, it's not just looping. I believe she's firing off recorded loops as well as creating live loops on the fly. I'm not sure what might be pre-recorded but it's obvious (after watching quite a few of her Youtube videos) that her performances/video's are similar in how she conducts her workflow. I don't know why she would work that hard to create the illusion of doing all that stuff live. I think her material, writing, arranging, performance, vocal chops all stand on their own regardless of whether they are tracked or not.

If it is live, it's all the more amazing. I believe the live loops and vocals are all done live as it all appears amazingly tight with the audio.


Kurzweil PC3X, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: J. Dead] #3028948 02/14/20 01:36 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
B
Bif_ Offline OP
Platinum Member
OP Offline
Platinum Member
B
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
Originally Posted by J. Dead
Here's another artist with a similar method that I've been following for a while named Kawehi. ..........


While this is also impressive, it demonstrates what I don't like about live looping. It takes so long to build up the song as the layers are created.


Kurzweil PC3X, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028973 02/14/20 04:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,478
R
Reezekeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
R
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,478
Originally Posted by Bif_
I don't know why she would work that hard to create the illusion of doing all that stuff live.

I don't get the impression she's working to "create an illusion." Are you thinking some of the moves we see her make are fake, in that we're supposed to think she's triggering a loop/pattern/sound but it's prerecorded?

Originally Posted by Bif_
I think her material, writing, arranging, performance, vocal chops all stand on their own regardless of whether they are tracked or not.

Absolutely. AFAIK there's no "rule book of loopers" that says you must never use prerecorded tracks. I completely agree with you. She's obviously quite talented; however (and I know what I say next will make that statement sound like classic "damning with faint praise") I will now go into "old fart" mode and say that as obvious as her talent is, this particular vamp-based loop-styled music does not appeal to me. My old fart ears want to hear harmonic development in a composition; chords that start somewhere, go somewhere else, then return, or go on to something different. I've listened to enough of these kinds of tunes to understand that composers in this style use other techniques to bring variety to a composition – starting & stopping additional parts, inserting breaks or silences, etc. For me, it's not enough to compensate for the lack of harmonic variety. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Is there anyone using this tech and going beyond the 2-chord vamping drones that make me lose interest after a while? I have not searched for such artists so I would welcome anyone pulling my coat to them. I know of one off the top of my head, but his name seems to be a dirty word in these parts (based on the last thread I saw about him here):


Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3028998 02/14/20 02:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,660
J. Dead Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club
Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,660
Originally Posted by Bif_
Originally Posted by J. Dead
Here's another artist with a similar method that I've been following for a while named Kawehi. ..........


While this is also impressive, it demonstrates what I don't like about live looping. It takes so long to build up the song as the layers are created.


I agree if I was just going to be listening only. But it is still very interesting to watch it being done and see how all of the sound originated, as well as visually entertaining from a performance standpoint knowing that each of those parts recorded on the fly had to be performed flawlessly with perfect timing in order to work for the whole song, especially with so many parts and layers going on. I'd rather see them built on the fly than just trigger prerecorded that could have taken many takes and/or been subject to editing. It adds to the authenticity.

Last edited by J. Dead; 02/14/20 02:08 PM.

Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Reezekeys] #3029011 02/14/20 03:18 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
B
Bif_ Offline OP
Platinum Member
OP Offline
Platinum Member
B
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,385
Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Originally Posted by Bif_
I don't know why she would work that hard to create the illusion of doing all that stuff live.

Are you thinking some of the moves we see her make are fake, in that we're supposed to think she's triggering a loop/pattern/sound but it's prerecorded?


I don't think that, but others on this thread have suggested that some or all of the video is 'lip synced' and/or pre-produced.


Kurzweil PC3X, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3029013 02/14/20 03:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,660
J. Dead Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club
Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 13,660
No dog in this fight but I'm guessing she's doing a lot more than she's being given credit for. Reminds me of when I used to play in a band where we had a sequence to cover various percussion and stuff and this community insisted that it wasn't a band or live music because live music isn't "hitting play", which I agree with to some extent, but doesn't detract from the talent and how busy we all were on stage playing live parts. But no, as soon as there is ONE SINGLE THING that somebody isn't playing, you no longer deserve any recognition whatsoever for your talent and performance, even if the accuser could never in a million years do it themselves. Then we get into the deeper argument of craft vs trade vs creativity vs yada yada..... we've had this discussion over and over. She does her thing well and I would bet large sums of money that none of the detractors on here could even come close to doing it themselves. Wanna prove me wrong? Post your own video, it's not that hard.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3029014 02/14/20 03:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,435
Al Quinn Offline
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,435
Sounds like a sincere and heartfelt performance by a talented young woman to me. Not the kind of music I usually listen to, but I like it!

Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3029025 02/14/20 04:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 21,028
Joe Muscara Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
20k Club
Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
20k Club
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 21,028
I just watched the video in the OP. Like Al said, not the kind of music I usually listen to, but I like it! I also liked the appearance of the dog at 2:41. grin


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: Bif_] #3029087 02/14/20 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,164
MathOfInsects Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,164
Originally Posted by Bif_
I don't think that, but others on this thread have suggested that some or all of the video is 'lip synced' and/or pre-produced.


As one of those others, I want to clarify that I wouldn’t have the slightest problem if the entire thing was a re-enactment. I believe this is an accurate representation of her art, and wouldn’t care at all if, in the end, nothing at all on the video was “live” as we usually use the word.

Except the dog; I’ll be pissed if that’s fake.


"
Re: Amazing Talent-melding tech and technique [Re: MathOfInsects] #3029090 02/14/20 10:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,615
Markyboard Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,615
Originally Posted by MathOfInsects

Except the dog; I’ll be pissed if that’s fake.


Dont worry, no one would ever do that. Only thing worse would be a fake ape.



Moderated by  Dave Bryce, Stephen Fortner 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3