New Roland Fantom

[ABECK]

Is the Spider Pro more flexible to adapt for both stand up and sit down heights than the 18810/20? I think I will only use this stand set at home and in sit down mode, but it's good to know what boxes it checks for stage performance use. If the Spider Pro is more flexible for more ways to use it that may influence a decision as well.

 

FWIW just from demoing a Fantom 7 I think it would push the top tier of the Spider Pro (which I do own) to its limits but would obviously be a breeze on the bottom tier... I fit my MODX7 on the top tier and it's solid but the Fantom 7 is a bigger and heavier beast of course.

 

It is easy enough to change heights for sitting or standing. I've grown sour on mine though (trying to get rid of it). I much prefer a "table" style stand with a wider base. The pedal real estate under the Spider is limited. With heavier boards, I've found the bounciness of the top tier to be significant. To top it off, it is heavy as all f*ck. I much prefer my KS7150. So the Spider pretty much sits unused.

[Tom Williams]

To top it off, it is heavy as all f*ck.

How does all f*ck compare with my OnStage Z stand with tier? Also, is that in metric or "English" (American) f*cks? I have a conversion program somewhere around here...

[ABECK]

LMAO - we need to agree on a universal standard of all f*cks.

Of course, anyone who carted around a Hammond and Leslie are like "hold my beer."

[Stokely]

I gigged with a 2-tier onstage Z for quite a while, now with a spider pro.

 

They are both heavy, but the spider is far easier to carry in it's bag. I found the Z to be quite awkward if left assembled, and I really didn't want to have to assemble each time.

 

Both are good for standing vs sitting, the spider is the easier of the two. I have marks on the stem for standing height of where the arms go, I just go down two inches or so when I use my stool. I kind of wonder if the spider work work as well with a lower chair or stool as it comes forward as it goes down.

 

Both have a lot of room underneath for pedals/mixers etc (no feet in the way).

 

The Z would hold more weight I think. Both seem plenty stable for me, the Z had one weakness in that regard--it can tip over backward without much effort if the top tier is the heavier of the two (or if you've taken off the bottom keyboard).

 

For what it could matter, I've gotten about five compliments through the years on my rig--and all of them have been about the Spider lol! Who cares about the keyboards proudly sitting on it.....

[MikeT156]

I listened to Sweetwater's Daniel Fisher's Demo of the New Fantom. I don't care for the sound of it. I don't like the price either. But then, I gave up on Roland a long time ago. On a Positive note, I have several of their drum machines that sound good and still work.

 

 

Mike T.

[ApprenticeGary]

IMHO, Roland gears aren"t the 'good at first impression' type thing. Hope the new fantom will be a future legend like the fantom x at least.

[Moonglow]

Would anyone happen to know the extent to which the V-Pianos are represented in the Fantom? I get that it probably doesn't have all of the bells/whistles of a fully-fledged V-Piano, but for example, does it have the same V-Pianos as those in the RD-2000? The reason I ask is that, from the videos I've heard, the V-Pianos in the Fantom don't sound quite as full/robust as those in the RD-2000 (which I have played). They sound a little thinner and perhaps boxier. I hear very little difference between the V-Pianos in the RD-2000 and those in the actual V-Piano (which I have also played), but hear a bit of of a drop-off between the Fantom and RD-2000/V-Piano. Of course, always hard to tell from videos...

[allan_evett]

Would anyone happen to know the extent to which the V-Pianos are represented in the Fantom? I get that it probably doesn't have all of the bells/whistles of a fully-fledged V-Piano, but for example, does it have the same V-Pianos as those in the RD-2000? The reason I ask is that, from the videos I've heard, the V-Pianos in the Fantom don't sound quite as full/robust as those in the RD-2000 (which I have played). They sound a little thinner and perhaps boxier. I hear very little difference between the V-Pianos in the RD-2000 and those in the actual V-Piano (which I have also played), but hear a bit of of a drop-off between the Fantom and RD-2000/V-Piano. Of course, always hard to tell from videos...

 

 

From reading and playing through the list of V-Pianos in the Fantom, they are the same technology. Since I have a Fantom 7, I can't fairly compare the playing experiece to that of Fantom 8 (which I've never played). However, if I had to cover a large variety of piano sounds from a synth-weighted action, the Fantom 7 would be my 'desert island' choice; the fingers-to-ears connection is that good.

 

Comparing the Fantom 8 V-Pianos to those of the RD-2000 gets trickier. They both have the PHA-50 action with escapement, but the effects and sound routing system are newer in the Fantom. So even with possible DSP duplication, the Fantom may sound a little different. Also the output DA converters in the Fantom are ridiculous; the quality of sound coming out of that keyboard is on par with the Montage, if not stronger. Based on several comments I've heard from various Roland and Yamaha clinicians, the user interface on piano-focused stage keyboards - vs. 88-key workstations/synths - is set up to be a little different, even when using the same models/sample sets. Sounds like this inquiry warrants a road trip to Fort Wayne to A/B the RD-2000 and Fantom 8 .

[zephonic]

Question for F6/7 users:

 

I"ve seen some posts about the aftertouch implementation being subpar. Since that is one of the main reasons to get it for me, I"d like to hear your experience? Feel, effectiveness, assignability?

 

Also how is the latest OS update?

 

Can anybody chime in on this? In particular about the aftertouch implementation? Thanks.

[allan_evett]

Question for F6/7 users:

 

I"ve seen some posts about the aftertouch implementation being subpar. Since that is one of the main reasons to get it for me, I"d like to hear your experience? Feel, effectiveness, assignability?

 

Also how is the latest OS update?

 

Can anybody chime in on this? In particular about the aftertouch implementation? Thanks.

 

I like my Fantom 7 a lot, and it does many things quite well. But the aftertouch implementation is definitely subpar. The adjustability is minimal to non-existent for SN patches; you get whatever is 'baked in'. Meanwhile, triggering AT on the instrument requires an abnormal amount of force; and I'm fairly heavy-handed. Then when it triggers it's too strong: 0 to 128 in a split second. Unless Roland steps in and does a major hardware repair/replacement (which based on reports so far is not happening), do not buy a Fantom counting on the aftertouch.

[zephonic]

Unless Roland steps in and does a major hardware repair/replacement (which based on reports so far is not happening), do not buy a Fantom counting on the aftertouch.

 

Thanks, Allan. Definitely not what I wanted to hear, but good to know. Maybe Montage 7 will be a better fit, then, even if I prefer the stick over the wheels.

[allan_evett]

Unless Roland steps in and does a major hardware repair/replacement (which based on reports so far is not happening), do not buy a Fantom counting on the aftertouch.

 

Thanks, Allan. Definitely not what I wanted to hear, but good to know. Maybe Montage 7 will be a better fit, then, even if I prefer the stick over the wheels.

 

It's a shame, as the Fantom is a great instrument, otherwise. However, I would strongly consider the first follow-up keyboard (AKA, FA replacement) if the AT problem is resolved and there are at least 8 Tones per Scene. And I really don't need all of the recording capabilities that are on the Fantom.

[zephonic]

Yeah, I had hoped I'd finally have something that could truly replace my old Fantom X7. The aftertouch on that board is so effortless, and I miss that warm Roland sound, something I'm not getting from MODX or Krome.

 

I doubt the FA replacement will have aftertouch? It seems the big three now all reserve that feature for their top of the line synths.

[allan_evett]

I doubt the FA replacement will have aftertouch? It seems the big three now all reserve that feature for their top of the line synths.

 

And for Roland that's an irony, at this point...

 

Would be cool if they offered a replacement, like Korg did with the bad RH3 actions (of which my original Kronos was one). I know that Roland's been aware of the issue for some time now. Just don't know if they consider it serious enough to take that level of action.

[AnotherScott]

The aftertouch on the AX-Edge seems to work fine.

[allan_evett]

The aftertouch on the AX-Edge seems to work fine.

 

 

Yes, it does. I've had a chance to check out the AX-Edge a couple times. Have a friend up on Chicago's north side who gigs with one, and loves it. He also uses a Juno DS as part of his rig, which I see as the best of both worlds for Roland coverage.

 

From further reading, I've discovered that the same issue plagues the Jupiter X as well. And in many cases - when checked out by techs - the Fantoms and Jupiters still fall within factory acceptable AT ranges. From the descriptions given, my Fantom 7 would fall into that category: The aftertouch is there, it's just hard-as-freak to trigger - and then it 'over-bursts'. It's similar to squeezing out old silicone for shower sealing; not at all characteristic of a sensitive musical instument. It leaves me wondering, 'Who at Roland designed and implemented this AT scheme, a cousin of Andre the Giant? And I have strong hands with a heavy touch...

 

I'm planning to shut off aftertouch at the System level on my Fantom for now. I lived without AT for eight years on a Jupiter-50, so the Fantom will just be like a super-expanded version of that. It's a shame though: There are a handful of sounds for which I looked forward to using AT, and I certainly paid dearly for this instrument..

[EscapeRocks]

FYI regarding Fantom Aftertouch:

 

In my personal experience, their Fantom line has always required more pressure than what seems normal to trigger. My old Fantom X6 was like that, and so was a G6 I owned briefly.

 

Best aftertouch boards I have?

 

Behringer Keylab 61 MK2 Black edition

Alesis Vortex 2 Wireless (slightly edges out the Keylab)

 

Both board's after touch are incredibly smooth and I have no issues getting a nice 0-127 without jumps.

Next would be my Komplete Kontrol S61MK2

 

When I spent some time with the new Fantom 6, I loved the board. It's versatility and so forth. Everything I wished my old X6 had. However, the after touch felt just the same... hard to trigger

[AnotherScott]

Roland uses a Fatar action on the VR-730... I wonder if maybe the AX-Edge aftertouch is better than most Rolands because it uses, not a Roland action, but maybe another Fatar action? It kind of feels like it could be a TP/9S.

[Stokely]

Best aftertouch I've ever experienced, by far, was on my old Virus B. Not sure if it was the hardware or the programming, likely both. It was both very controllable and easy to avoid using by accident somehow. I think that action was a TP9 of some kind.

 

Anyway, a friend of mine mentioned that the Fantoms were going to, or did already, include a new organ "engine"? I would have thought that if this were the case it would be big news. I liked the organ on my v-combo, very nice for a rock band organ. That said, I thought the implementation on the FA series was pretty weak....I was set to buy one from my buddy and the organ was the reason I didn't.

[AnotherScott]

a friend of mine mentioned that the Fantoms were going to, or did already, include a new organ "engine"? I would have thought that if this were the case it would be big news. I liked the organ on my v-combo, very nice for a rock band organ. That said, I thought the implementation on the FA series was pretty weak....I was set to buy one from my buddy and the organ was the reason I didn't.

Video: [video:youtube]

For FA, putting a Vent (or Lester K) on the assignable out and directing the organ alone to that output should make a big difference. I suspect the same may be true of the Fantom, we'll see. (Though I think the FA is still missing C/V settings... we'll see about the Fantom...)

[Stokely]

Interesting.

 

I must say though that the fast leslie sounded dreadful on some of the patches...better on others (?). The VR700's leslie was fine for band use IMO.

 

B-3X kills it, I just am still trying to embrace triggering an ipad live.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Just got this email:

 

'FANTOM keeps getting better. Theâ¯freeâ¯V2.5â¯Update adds two major upgrades to the powerhouseâ¯instrumentâthe Virtualâ¯ToneWheelâ¯Organ and official Ableton Live integration.â¯â¯

 

Now, you can tap intoâ¯anâ¯authentic emulation of the sound-generating process of a real tone wheel organ, including several toneâ¯wheelâ¯types with adjustable percussion, key click, leakage, and more.â¯A lush rotary effect allows you to adjustâ¯variableâ¯speed,â¯brake control, and tube distortion characteristics. Andâ¯FANTOM"s touchscreen, sliders, knobs, and keyboard action are automatically configuredâ¯forâ¯aâ¯naturalâ¯organ-playing experience.'

 

[video:youtube]

 

Also new is full Ableton Live integration on MacOS and Windows.

 

' Plus,â¯yourâ¯FANTOM nowâ¯has official integration withâ¯Ableton Liveâ¯on Mac and Windows.â¯Via FANTOM"s high-resolution touchscreen,â¯you canâ¯view and launch clips in Live"s Session view, access Live"s mixer parameters, and trigger transport functions. Andâ¯withâ¯FANTOM"s knobs, sliders,â¯and pads, you"ll be able toâ¯operate Macro Controls,â¯mix levels, Drum Racks, and more. Theâ¯seamless workflowâ¯between FANTOM and Liveâ¯willâ¯keepâ¯you focused on your music when the creative juices are flowing.'

 

[video:youtube]

[BRW]

Dangit, that Ableton integration is pretty enticing. The Logic / Mainstage thingy was already very cool.

[Analogaddict]

I wonder when Yamaha will add the YC organ to the Montage.

[Stokely]

I wonder when Yamaha will add the YC organ to the Montage.

 

 

I was just thinking about this yesterday, though for me it would be the MODX (hopefully no different than adding it to the Montage).

 

I'm using my ipad for organ and sending patch changes and routing; if the MODX had a better organ I could just use it and my Summit in a simpler fashion (getting either the organ or piano to play from the Summit would be the main goal). I LOVE B-3x though so that's a pretty high bar to clear sound-wise....offset by convenience. Of course no telling whether it's possible or would ever happen!

[Moonglow]

From the organ video, I was looking for a mic distance parameter under the 'Rotary' tab, but didn"t see it. Sort of had that effect when he turned the 'Spread' knob, but he did it rather quickly, so not sure.

[allan_evett]

From the organ video, I was looking for a mic distance parameter under the 'Rotary' tab, but didn"t see it. Sort of had that effect when he turned the 'Spread' knob, but he did it rather quickly, so not sure.

 

 

I don't see mic distance offered as a parameter, not in the dedicated rotary sim or when routed to either of the rotary FX. 'Spread' sounds closer to the global tone control parameter found on the RD instruments; the sound is either center-focused or spread across the stereo field. I experience a slight, mic distancing effect when tweaking that; it's what we have for now. I'm guessing that this already-capable VTW model would sound even stronger through a Vent', and likely stunning when truly moving air.

 

I read a comment yesterday on FB that this model was excellent, but didn't really resemble 'a Hammond'. Um, which Hammond might that be? There's a myriad of models, electro-mechanical 'personalities' and rotary speaker combinations (or non-combinations). And I've used (and in some cases, still use) a Stage 3, IK MM /Hammond B-3X, Logic's tonewheel model (a favorite for recording), and various Hammond XKs/SKs - plus a few different non-digital Hammond organ / Leslie combinations in the studio. I'm certainly not a tonewheel organ specialist (will definitely surrender that bench to Jim Alfredson anytime), but have been in the game long enough to know that there is no single, best digital tonewheel solution; it simply depends on the situation. Also have been witness to many digital tonewheel 'urinating' contests - especially at Gearfest, NAMM...

 

I think Roland has done a good job so far with the Fantom VTW model. It's definitely a step up from the Jupiter 80 's TW engine, and especially that of the RD-2000. While I've been getting closer to taking the Fantom out consistently for live gigs, this new twist is now lighting a fire under my programming. So I'll be digging into it a lot more in the coming weeks; also creating a small, wish list for VTW updates. To begin, a more extensive rotary engine would be awesome, various cabinets, mic positions, etc. - similar to what Logic Pro X's model offers.

 

Here's another video of the VTW engine:

 

[video:youtube]

[bennyray]

Good sounding TWO but like Allan said updates would make it very good probably the best organ of all the workstations imo now, Although I still like the CX3 in the Kronos also.

 

What gets me they put all this harsh overdrive on alot of tones or sounds which is of no use seems like all keyboard manufacturers love to do this.

 

But huge improvement on organ. BTW some people had issues after update as keyboard would not power off but most reinstalled the update and all was good

 

happened to me as well.

[jeffincltnc]

I installed the update for the tonewheel model in my Fantom tonight. I was impressed with a lot of things by it, especially the interface and implementation of controls. It did a nice job on some standard sounds you'd look for like Booker T's Green Onions and has a nice drive, and the smears sounded nice considering I have an 88 key weighted piano bed.

 

The leslie settings need some more tweaking, but right off the install, I preferred over both Kurzweil Forte KB3 and the Yamaha YC series leslie. Maybe my Nord is noticably better or maybe not. It's close. I like my Stage 3 but Nord organs to me are kind of like the Soviets in the 60's space race. They were out in front of the pack 15 years ago and lost their advantage and fell behind the specialists.

 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better sounding organ for a band context in a workstation against Yamaha, Korg and Kurzweil now. If you're not sold on the Leslie effects you can route a separate output to a Vent.

[rickzjamm]

The YC's organ is not horrible but I think Roland just showed Yamaha how to listen to their clientele & keep the customer base.