My IEM Revelation Has Begun :)

[Reezekeys]

Huh. I don't need an ambient mix blend. We don't run drums or bass into our monitor mixes - they bleed into my cheap in ears satisfactorily.

My $50 MEE IEMs with Comply memoryfoam eartips do a good job of blocking ambient sound one of the main reasons I resisted spending the big bucks on custom-molded earplugs/IEMs. If youre comfortable with how you hear things, then job done. I like having a little more control myself.

[cphollis]

All the monitoring systems I've looked at only have network to personnel mix systems.

They all leave out the pre FOH interface that goes between the FOH feeds and FOH snake.

the only thing I've seen that seems to make sense is this

PreSonas

At any rate it seems this could be done so much easier with every feed from each person

going to their own net IO that connects either wired or wireless to a router so every one

else can have access wich leads to the next question: AVB, DANTE, and ultranet are the

few protocals that I've seen mentioned in my recent searches. would love to get some

clarification on all this, seems the more I search the more complicated/ridiculous it gets.

 

Wow, that looks like fiddly stuff. Not mention expensive.

 

Why wouldn't you get something like the X-Air or TouchMix, and tell band members to bring their own wifi portable device for their personal mix?

[rickzjamm]

Been using Westone Ambient Pro 20s & ROLLS PM351... aural heaven! Great sound & your in control of the IEM mix. The passive ambience feature allows you to have both ears hooked up.

[WesG]

Reezekeys - how about a video camera mic?

 

Or maybe an XY pair of Behringer C2s?

[Reezekeys]

Reezekeys - how about a video camera mic?

Depends on the camera of course, but I'm not sure it would be any better than what's in my Tascam any evidence of that, in general?

 

Or maybe an XY pair of Behringer C2s?

Looks interesting and affordable - but they require phantom power. And a stand. My Tascam outputs through a 1/8" stereo minijack that plugs directly into the minijack line input on my MOTU interface. And, I just lay the Tascam down on my laptop case behind me no stands, mounting bars, etc. Super easy and practically nothing to carry, just the small recorder and a 1/8" stereo miniplug-to-miniplug cable. I just wish the mics were a little better.

[WesG]

Not the mic built into the camera. Mics sold to plug into cameras. These tend to be good quality stereo condensers with a couple of AAs in them.

 

Doesn't the C2 take an internal AA? Maybe I'm thinking of a different condenser.

 

As for needing a stand.....you're going to need a stand if you want quality. The noise at the stage floor is way different than the noise at ear level. Moving your Tascam up higher might help. You can get a clamp on bar for your vocal stand for a second mic. I use that trick to mic both halves of my Leslie with a single stand.

 

Wes

[Reezekeys]

Not the mic built into the camera. Mics sold to plug into cameras. These tend to be good quality stereo condensers with a couple of AAs in them.

Gotcha. I did look into them, iirc I found one that looked good - an Audio Technica I think but it required plug-in power. There might have been a Sony that used a battery but I think there was something about it that made it less than ideal for my setup. Maybe I should take another look.

 

Doesn't the C2 take an internal AA? Maybe I'm thinking of a different condenser.

You probably are. The C2s definitely need phantom. Not to mention the input on my MOTU interface is a 1/8" stereo miniplug. That's why my little Tascam was a good fit.

 

As for needing a stand.....you're going to need a stand if you want quality. The noise at the stage floor is way different than the noise at ear level. Moving your Tascam up higher might help. You can get a clamp on bar for your vocal stand for a second mic. I use that trick to mic both halves of my Leslie with a single stand.

My Tascam is far off the floor resting on my computer case, which is on top of my bass amp head, which is on top of my bass cabinet; almost at ear level. Plus, no vocal stand for me. You don't want to hear me try to sing!

[cphollis]

OK, since I started this thread ...

 

Here's the real deal in my world?

 

Clonk

[Dave Keys]

What about this? Comes with an xy mic and another mic, plus you can add a shotgun mic. https://www.zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/h6-handy-recorder

[joegerardi]

I've been looking at CIEMs. I've narrowed it down to Alien Ears or Eartechs 2 Questions:

1- will dual-driver work well for keys, or do I need more?

2- which is a better driver type- Balanced armature or Dynamic?

 

Thanks,

 

..Joe

[J. Dan]

In my experience, the vocal mics pick up so much bleed that if anything I'm trying to get less ambience, not more. I think in many cases people just don't like the fact that they can hear what they actually sound like rather than have it covered up by noise. My solution would be to sound better, rather than pipe something in to cover it up.

[Reezekeys]

What about this? Comes with an xy mic and another mic, plus you can add a shotgun mic. https://www.zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/h6-handy-recorder

I'll assume this was directed at me since I was asking about a small stereo mic setup to use as ambience mics. I appreciate your suggestion and it's funny you should mention this piece, since I have one! It doesn't belong to me though, so I'm a little skittish to bring it out on the road. But the main issue is that all my gear has to fit in my computer backpack which I carry on the plane my MacBook Pro, interface and SSDs are not gonna go in baggage. There is just no room in there for me to bring this big Zoom in its case. And I would be nervous about laying it on my SKB computer case on a gig it would need a stand of some sort and that's one more thing to deal with on the gig. My Tascam DR05 is no problem in either department. The H6 is a happening little recorder, just not quite right for this particular application.

 

[Dave Keys]

Reezekeys - no worries. Its just that this is what Im using my IEM mixer and it works a treat for me. Plus it powers off the Kronos USB socket.

 

Joegerradi - Id go for as many drivers as you can afford. I tried lots of brands and models yesterday, and ending up choosing quads (JH11Pros) because you need the full frequency range for keys.

 

That said, it was borderline between the Ultimate Ears UE7s, which are triple drivers, and the JH audio 11s. There was more headroom in the bass so I went with the quads.

[J. Dan]

I'll caution those auditioning IEM's on something I found regarding bass response. I found that sometimes the ones that sound the best just listening to one source do not necessarily have the best result when monitoring in a live situation. I find this to be ESPECIALLY true if you sing. Let me explain.....

 

If you're doing the kind of shows I did, then FOH has stacks of subs and the bass onstage can be significant. Even with really good isolation, bass frequencies will tend to leak more than highs. So I found often you have to overcome the level of the bass to get clarity. If you are increasing the bass in your IEM's at the same time as the highs, you end up having to run them much louder to get to that clarity than if they were a bit brighter.

 

This is even more pronounced when singing. Stick your fingers in your ears and sing. What do you hear? A muffled mess. So piping your voice through IEM's you need to hear highs to balance out the bass being transferred through your head. If the IEM's are increasing the bass at the same time, again you'll have to run them much louder before you get that clarity instead of mud.

 

Maybe I'm more utilitarian, but I would rather hear what's going to make me play better and sound better, than what sounds the way I want to hear myself. For me that means clarity - dry vocals, no reverb or ambience, crystal clear.

 

I ended up with IEM's that had more prominent mids because they gave me the clearest sound Live. I kept the dual driver ones with the nice bass response for watching movies on a plane or listening to music.

[Reezekeys]

I'm with you on this, which makes me wonder if these expensive multiple-driver IEMs are worth it for me. First, my ears are not in great shape to begin with (I know I have some hearing loss and can't hear high freqs much), so even outside the stage environment - like simply listening to recorded music for enjoyment I'm not sure how much the extra fidelity of the two or three-driver IEMs are going to be apparent to me. But what really makes me wonder about the utility of these expensive guys is that, on stage, things are f&^king loud, with a lot of low end leaking in. Also, the front line of the band uses wedges - and they're loud, and I'm getting blasted nicely from them. Not exactly the environment to appreciate "hi-fi" musical reproduction. As I see it, I really need isolation first; then I just need to hear myself and whatever else is in my mix adequately. So my uneducated opinion is that there's just too much stage getting through for me to realize the benefits of a more "hi-fi" IEM, especially given my compromised ears to begin with. But I could be wrong! I wonder if anyone has dealt with my type of situation (loud stage) and switched from cheaper single-driver IEMs to multis, and noticed a difference in that environment?

[J. Dan]

The cheap single driver IEM's aren't good either just because they aren't very articulate and color the sound in a bad way. I stared out long ago when the standard Shure IEM's that came with the system were E2's. They had an artificial sizzle to them and just didn't sound very clean to me. After trying multiple IEM's including higher end dual driver, I eventually settled on what is now the Shure SE-215 or maybe 315, I forget, It's the single driver step up from the base model. They work better for me than some that I tried at 2-3 times the price. I would characterize them as having a nice smooth midrange without that accentuated bass and sizzle that others have. To me, it's like the difference between what a lot of people like to hear in pop music - the smiley face EQ curve - vs just being a flat mix.

[Reezekeys]

I see your point about the single-driver IEMs not being that great. In retrospect, my question is un-answerable by anybody but me. "Not good" as you say, may be both "good enough" for me and "as good as I'll be able to appreciate due to my poor hearing" there's no way to know until and unless I spend the money to find out. I don't have the budget to try a bunch of different IEMs (I'm assuming these are not returnable like a keyboard or mixer).

[cphollis]

Reezekeys:

 

They are not returnable unless demonstrated to be defective. So reading reviews are your friend, in addition to the wisdom dispensed freely here.

 

I began with the above mentioned Shure SE215s (single driver, ~$90) and found the whole IEM experience quite enjoyable, enough to proceed further.

 

I drove them with a wired $49 Behringer headphone amp. Also quite enjoyable.

 

After a few gigs, I found that the full-seal nature wasn't necessary as the rest of the band was now using IEMs and had turned down their amps. Also a bit uncomfortable, like being sealed in Tupperware.

 

A lot of people said in the reviews they preferred hearing ambient sound. Yeah, I now understood why. Also, I wanted a bit more bass and clarity.

 

Went for the triple-driver Westone AM 30, and am very, very happy with my experience. Essentially a flat response (to my ears, anyway), extremely comfortable and I can hear well enough to have a conversation with them in my ears, feel the drums, etc. One of the few "five star" products you'll find at Sweetwater.

 

Your mileage may vary.

[Dave Keys]

I see your point about the single-driver IEMs not being that great. In retrospect, my question is un-answerable by anybody but me. "Not good" as you say, may be both "good enough" for me and "as good as I'll be able to appreciate due to my poor hearing" there's no way to know until and unless I spend the money to find out. I don't have the budget to try a bunch of different IEMs (I'm assuming these are not returnable like a keyboard or mixer).

 

Yeah IEMs are a totally personal choice - nobody knows what it sounds like to you but you! You can however try lots out for free if you go to an IEM specialist. They use generic buds that give an adequate seal for testing. I mustve tried 6 or so different pairs before narrowing it down to 2 sets, and then continually A-Bing them until I decided on the JHs.

[J. Dan]

So reading above, it must be the SE315's that I ended up being happy with.

 

Most of the musicians I know who end up spending more money and getting the custom molds and all that either go with the Westones or Ultimate Ears. But I'd say for the price of the SE-315's there isn't much risk in trying them out first.

 

One thing I'll say for sure is make sure whatever you get has replaceable cords. I think most do these days, but that's the part that will fail and you don't want to have to replace the whole thing.

[Reezekeys]

Yeah IEMs are a totally personal choice - nobody knows what it sounds like to you but you! You can however try lots out for free if you go to an IEM specialist. They use generic buds that give an adequate seal for testing. I mustve tried 6 or so different pairs before narrowing it down to 2 sets, and then continually A-Bing them until I decided on the JHs.

I'm curious - "IEM specialist" is what exactly? An audiologist? ENT? Or some other entity? And are you saying you can try them out on a gig or just in their office? Thanks

[Reezekeys]

So reading above, it must be the SE315's that I ended up being happy with.

 

Most of the musicians I know who end up spending more money and getting the custom molds and all that either go with the Westones or Ultimate Ears. But I'd say for the price of the SE-315's there isn't much risk in trying them out first.

 

One thing I'll say for sure is make sure whatever you get has replaceable cords. I think most do these days, but that's the part that will fail and you don't want to have to replace the whole thing.

I believe the Westones are the ones that let in some of the ambience. So I would conceivably not need my little homebrew rig of the Tascam recorder with its not-so-great mics. That's what's appealing to me. The Shures you reference are designed as "sound isolating."

 

My $50 MEE M6 Pro in-ears came with two sets of detachable cables. They have memory wire and include a bunch of tips (both foam & silicone), and a carrying case. 4/5 starts with over 1700 reviews on Amazon. I considered it a no-brainer for a first pair of IEMs, and truthfully I don't think they sound bad - but of course I haven't used any other IEMs so maybe I'll be blown away with a different pair. All I need do to find out is open my wallet...

[Dave Keys]

Yeah IEMs are a totally personal choice - nobody knows what it sounds like to you but you! You can however try lots out for free if you go to an IEM specialist. They use generic buds that give an adequate seal for testing. I mustve tried 6 or so different pairs before narrowing it down to 2 sets, and then continually A-Bing them until I decided on the JHs.

I'm curious - "IEM specialist" is what exactly? An audiologist? ENT? Or some other entity? And are you saying you can try them out on a gig or just in their office? Thanks

 

The one I go to near London specialises only in Custom In Ears - not hearing aids! The reason I went to them is they are one of a very tiny number of specialists in the UK where you can try lots of different brands of IEM, not just ACS (a well known brand of silicon IEM).

 

Their impressions are tailored to stage work - they must go past the first bend in the ear canal, and should be taken with an open jaw, regardless of whether you are a singer or not. They are fully trained and medically insured.

 

I tried my IEM's out in the lab. The main benefit to trying them out on a gig would be if you somehow already had the moulds and could test the -26db isolation. Obviously as this part can only come later, you've got to be satisfied with the overall sound of the buds themselves before you get the impressions made.

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Ahh, I get it now. Here in the USA I imagine there are some audiologists or ENTs that have a specialty treating musicians and would be able to give me the kind of service you got but I haven't heard of a medical practice here specifically for IEMs. I'm curious (and potentially jealous!): was any part of your fitting & purchase covered by the NHS?

 

I have a two-week stint at Ronnie's in July. Hey maybe I can get an endorsement deal with your guys? <--(humor/sarcasm there just in case anyone might be wondering!)

[Throbert]

Why wouldn't you get something like the X-Air or TouchMix, and tell band members

to bring their own wifi portable device for their personal mix?

Because that would be an extra piece of gear that would require someones attention

to manage. I think My mix is the answer to what I think would fit individual or group

needs. No centralized gear, every body connects their own my mix to an Enet to have

access to everyone else, simple and easy

[Dave Keys]

Ahh, I get it now. Here in the USA I imagine there are some audiologists or ENTs that have a specialty treating musicians and would be able to give me the kind of service you got but I haven't heard of a medical practice here specifically for IEMs. I'm curious (and potentially jealous!): was any part of your fitting & purchase covered by the NHS?

 

I have a two-week stint at Ronnie's in July. Hey maybe I can get an endorsement deal with your guys? <--(humor/sarcasm there just in case anyone might be wondering!)

 

Hi Reeze

 

No the NHS doesn't subsidise my IEM's :-) A 2 week stint at Ronnies - nice! Who's the act?!

[Reezekeys]

No the NHS doesn't subsidise my IEM's :-)

I didn't think they would buy your IEMs, but maybe cover part of the examination/prescription process. An audiologist's exam might be covered by my insurance over here.

 

A 2 week stint at Ronnies - nice! Who's the act?!

Average White Band. Actually it's two Monday-Thursday stints, two weeks in a row. In between we do the Edinburgh Jazz Fest. I hope they add more UK dates. You're in Birmingham? We played the Mostly Jazz Festival there in 2016, that was a really enjoyable gig! Great food and people.

 

[elif]

I've used quads from 1964 Ears, assorted ear plugs from gun shop blockers to Etymotics. The best sounding and most comfortable hearing protection and monitor device I've used is a David Clarke 10S-DC stereo headset.

I thought it would illicit cat calls on stage, but I've never received one negative comment.

http://www.davidclarkcompany.com/files/headsetmodel/imgstyle-detail/10S-DC.png

I'd really like someone to make IEMs with binaural mic's in them. I have tried the Roland CS-10EM but I don't think they have enough attenuation. Perhaps with some other tips.

[Dave Keys]

elseif - the IEMs I started looking at had mics in the earpieces - like these:

https://www.acscustom.com/uk/products/in-ear-monitors/live-ciem

 

It's a great idea to have the ambient mics built into the earpieces - but you're right about the need for attenuation. I have a colleague who sent his back because the sound of a loud band on stage overloaded the mics too much. So perhaps these are better for theatre?

 

Reeze Keys - I live very close to where you played here in Birmingham and have been to the Mostly Jazz Festival in Moseley myself. Glad you enjoyed it! Moseley is my night out when I'm not gigging. Average White Band - you guys play some nice grooves!!

[J Graul]

I've been using mostly IEMs for about 10 years now and the past 2 years have absolutely been the best. We're lucky to have a dedicated sound man who is a retired engineer. He's not a musician but knows frequencies and how to get a great FOH sound. He bought the Allen & Heath Qu-pac system with extra ports. It's awesome. We control our own monitors with a phone app. He also built snakes for me, the drummer, and lead guitarist. Nice setup. I think our drummer uses 8 channels including a click.

 

We did have issues on the first three or four gigs with the wifi system due to conflicts with other close wifi routers, but he got it worked out. Not sure what he did but if anyone wants to know I will ask him.

 

We also run in stereo and our IEMs are also in stereo. Love it!

 

Both of our guitar players still use mic'd amps. We will never get them to using amp simulators, mostly because they can't figure them out to get good tones. I guess they also need to "feel" the amps. Bass player is all direct.

 

The one gripe I have with all IEMs is that people dancing close to the stage get very little vocals and keys because there's no presence of them on the stage (no wedge montitors). I keep telling them we need to at least have some side-fills to get a little vocal presence.