Yamaha Genos

[Markyboard]

Please explain the price tag as well.

 

 

 

Ask Gene - he knows.

[GovernorSilver]

Yes, apparently some folks have more dollars than sense.

 

 

The Electone StageA has apparently been in production since 2004.

 

Must be a lot of rich customers in Asia buying thus stuff for 14 years and counting. I wonder why the Latin America market is included on Yamaha's site - must be all the rich hacienda owners.

 

In any case, those Tyros and Electone sales are apparently financing the R&D on "lesser" products like the Montage.

[HAMEGZ]

For a lot of traditional style home players, the arranger replaced the home organ. The home organ market is nearly nonexistent. As well these are popular with OMBs. The price of the Genos is right inline with the Tyros it replaces. The 61-key Tyros is $5300 vs. $5500 for the 76-key Genos.

 

Busch.

 

Has anyone ever profiled these home players? I am thinking they may be retired with tons of disposable income , thus dropping cash on this board.

 

If we look at the home organs sold in the mall back in the day the price they sold for with inflation would be comparable to the Genos today?

[SeaGtGruff]

Different markets have different customers-- that is to say, what the buying public in one area of the world considers to be "cool" and "must have" might be considered "ick" and "barfarific" by the buying public in other areas, and vice versa.

[Sven Golly]

Why the hell would anyone want a self-playing Les Paul?

 

I think I'm in the 90% misunderstanding category, perhaps 100%.

 

Yeah, with this, I'm out. Anyone else want to clear the fog for Grey?

[GRollins]

Yes, apparently some folks have more dollars than sense.

 

 

That group would most certainly include me and since I don't have all that much money, it's clear that I have no sense at all. Sort of non-sense, so to speak.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

For a lot of traditional style home players, the arranger replaced the home organ. The home organ market is nearly nonexistent. As well these are popular with OMBs. The price of the Genos is right inline with the Tyros it replaces. The 61-key Tyros is $5300 vs. $5500 for the 76-key Genos.

 

Busch.

 

Has anyone ever profiled these home players? I am thinking they may be retired with tons of disposable income , thus dropping cash on this board.

 

If we look at the home organs sold in the mall back in the day the price they sold for with inflation would be comparable to the Genos today?

 

Funny you should mention that, but after I got my A-100 (technically a home organ, as I understand it), and given that it included the original receipt, we ran the price through one of those online adjust-for-inflation calculators.

 

If I recall correctly, the inflation-adjusted price for a 1962 Hammond A-100 in today's dollars would be something on the order of $20,000.

 

YIKES!

 

Man, if that don't make your tenders shrivel you're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din.

 

Grey

[GovernorSilver]

I guess it's time to revisit these vids - solo Electone performances by some little girl in a part of the world where people still buy home organs like the Electone:

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

[Synthoid]

Yeah, I could see something like that costing major $$$, but not a single manual, all-plastic model with, from what I've read, a so-so keybed.

 

:idk

 

 

 

 

 

[pjd]

Yamaha Genos USA pricing

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-genesis/

 

That quote came from a hit from a google search on "price", it was stand alone..

 

Aaaaaaaaaay, no problem. I was just amused as I was about to post the link. :-)

 

Yep, I agree $5500 street is pretty steep. For that much, I can buy a Montage6 and the replacement for the MOXF when it's announced, and still have money left over.

 

S970 is a terrific instrument; I use an S950 for practice and home stuff. My main gig instrument is an MOX6.

 

All the best to ya -- pj

 

 

 

[Song80s]

The price of the Tyros-- and presumably of the Genos-- seems to be related to how much bang it has in the way of voices, such as how many voices it has of each type (such as Super Articulation, Cool, Sweet, etc.), as well as things like the number of voice parts (such as the inclusion of a Right 3 part), the ability to select Registrations and Registration Banks via remote MIDI (not available on any of the PSR-S models), etc. If you look at the prices of the PSR-S models, what is it about the PSR-S970 that makes it more expensive than the PSR-S770? If they have similar basic specs, the differences between them seem to boil down to how many voices and styles they have.

 

EDIT: I forgot to say, the specs for the Genos mention that it uses AEM technology-- whatever that is-- in addition to AWM technology. Also, it has an aftertouch keyboard, a touch screen, and lots more new panel controls, among other things, so that all must count a good bit toward its price. But, yeah, it's way out of my ball park, so I can totally commiserate over the price!

 

you could be right- some type of formula based on voices.

 

My theory is more boring accounting stuff. Cost of parts, assembly, labor, expected profit margin for mfgr.

 

But thats about half the story. If there is some new tech in Genos that might be considered a development cost or R & D. That might get amortized over 3 years and if the tech is cool and useful, it will find its way to other models. But I don't have a good idea or sense of what is really new tech developed for the Genos.

 

I warned you this would get boring

[Song80s]

Why the hell would anyone want a self-playing Les Paul?

 

I think I'm in the 90% misunderstanding category, perhaps 100%.

 

Yeah, with this, I'm out. Anyone else want to clear the fog for Grey?

 

I hope you are not losing your mojo for newbies. That was a major charm for the forum

[pjd]

For a lot of traditional style home players, the arranger replaced the home organ. The home organ market is nearly nonexistent. As well these are popular with OMBs. The price of the Genos is right inline with the Tyros it replaces. The 61-key Tyros is $5300 vs. $5500 for the 76-key Genos.

 

Busch.

 

Has anyone ever profiled these home players? I am thinking they may be retired with tons of disposable income , thus dropping cash on this board.

 

If we look at the home organs sold in the mall back in the day the price they sold for with inflation would be comparable to the Genos today?

 

All true. On the PSR Tutorial Forum, there are folks who have pre-ordered.

 

The Tyros and PSR seems especially popular with entertainers in Europe. Schläger music is big in Germany with many variants elsewhere. Nothing like hanging out in a biergarten with a few hundred of your close personal friends. :-)

 

All the best -- pj

 

 

[SeaGtGruff]

If the prices I'm currently seeing for the Tyros5-76 are right, it looks like the Genos is priced about the same. That's not to say that the Tyros isn't overpriced-- those who own one usually seem very happy with it, although I'll never be able to afford one unless I win big in the lottery! As for arrangers in general, I suppose that all three of my "El Cheapo" (read: Hey, something I can actually afford!) Yamaha models are technically arrangers, in the sense that they can play built-in and external styles. But Yamaha markets them as "portable keyboards" rather than "arrangers" because they're light-weight, can run on batteries if need be, and have built-in speakers-- plus, they can play only two variations per style, whereas the "arrangers" can usually play four variations. Anyway, I almost never use my keyboards' auto-accompaniment features, but having them there in case I should ever feel inclined in that direction doesn't make me feel like less of a keyboardist. On the other hand, not being able to play worth a darn most certainly makes me feel like less of a keyboardist!

[konaboy]

i once heard that the difference between workstation synths and arrangers is that pro-synths have a volume slider and arrangers have a volume knob. seems to hold true even on the genos.

[GovernorSilver]

This Electone model has "Horizontal Touch":

 

https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/electone/els-02c/index.html

 

 

I don't see it mentioned in the Genos, but who knows... I wonder how much more advanced the AEM is in the Genos vs. the Montage:

 

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/why-no-s-art2-voices-in-montage

 

Reading that little thread, I recall the claim back in the day that Super Articulation appeared in Tyros first, before any form of it was implemented in a Yamaha workstation keyboard.

[ElmerJFudd]

I suppose those that invest in arrangers are typically gigging without a band and maybe Yamaha, Korg etc. want a cut of whatever this act is saving on not needing to hire additional musicians?

 

Also, at this price point is the other target buyer professional song writers and they want a cut of that gig assuming they would be using their sounds, sequence and patterns royalty free?

 

Lastly, I imagine these are targeted to wealthy hobbyists that want the best sounds, the best patterns and live play features? There's a scene for these things, it's just not typically the bulk of players that congregate here?

 

Side note, Yamaha Korg usually put their best stuff into these arrangers first and trickle down from there, whatever that tells you about how important the market is. Also, are Yamaha recouping investment in sound design, programming as well as style creation that extends way beyond hardware in these machines?

[pjd]

I once read somewhere that Yamaha usually releases their latest high-end sample playback/articulation technology in their high-end arranger and Electone lines (sold only to Asia/Latin America) first. That tech later trickles down to the workstation products (eg. MOTIF).

 

Much truth here, although the two product lines trade 8s, technically speaking. The Genos picked up the EPs released in Montage. The Montage picked up the orchestra strings from the Tyros 5. On and on.

 

A large part of keyboard cost is sampling and new sound development. The CFX grand was developed for the Montage and now appears in the Genos. The Genos has a new C7 grand sample. The cost for all of this sound development has to be picked up somewhere by somebody. I think Yamaha throws a fair bit of this cost into the price of the Genos.

 

Hey, hey -- pj

 

[Jim Alfredson]

The Hammond organ sounds are pretty good! Yamaha finally upping their game in that regard!

[Jim Alfredson]

In regards to why the high price tag, it's kind of a boutique instrument for a very specific niche. There are a lot of 'country club' gigs around here that pay anywhere from $300 to $500 a night for a solo performer. They don't want a band; too loud, too much space needed. They want solos or duos. With the Tyros or Genos, you could corner the market on that scene and make some decent bread. As long as you don't mind playing with... er by yourself all night.

[Bobadohshe]

There are a lot of 'country club' gigs around here that pay anywhere from $300 to $500 a night for a solo performer. They don't want a band; too loud, too much space needed. They want solos or duos. With the Tyros or Genos, you could corner the market on that scene and make some decent bread. As long as you don't mind playing with... er by yourself all night.

 

Yeah Jim exactly. This also works well if you play as duo with a singer (which I do sometimes). I don't have an arranger but I can see the appeal. You have a full sound that goes 100% through a P.A. and can be turned down as quiet as possible. You can make real music. It's a career path for some and a format that there still is demand for. That's why I don't look down on it -- anything that keeps a semblance of real performers entertaining is good for the overall health of our performing brethren.

[GRollins]

On the other hand, not being able to play worth a darn most certainly makes me feel like less of a keyboardist!

 

C'est moi.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

Side note, Yamaha Korg usually put their best stuff into these arrangers first and trickle down from there...

 

Okay, now you've looped back around to part of what I was clumsily attempting to say above. They just released the Montage--well, okay, last year, I think, but still, and now they throw the Genos into the mix. Seems that would to some extent invalidate the voices in the Montage, as savvy players would now wait for the Montage 2.0, i.e. the "trickle down" version. In that sense, the Genos will...not cannibalize, but maybe suppress the Montage sales, if you follow what I'm saying, as people wait for the inevitable upgrade.

 

Grey

[Synthoid]

I've never heard anyone on the forum say they were waiting for "trickle-down" technology from an arranger to find its way into anything.

 

 

[Barryjam]

I have to admit that I'm tempted for two purposes:

 

1. Demo production, not as a finished product, but to show to the real band, asking each real player to make your part your own and make it better. Using this board would seem faster and more fun than painstakingly adding each track to a DAW, especially since I'm not a real guitarist, drummer, string player, or horn player. For this purpose, the Genos can be left at home or brought to rehearsal, but never to a gig.

 

2. Solos or Duos, cocktail hours. In my case, I would always want to play live along with it, and/or have a real sax, guitar, or singer with me. In this situation, the keyboard comes to the gig (but maybe with a cover over it

 

This is only tempting cuz I'm older, retired, don't need to make money from music, so I'm simultaneously GASsing after a Montage, P6, OB6, and now Genos, thinking buy all of them rather than stew over which is best, not that it will actually happen.

[ElmerJFudd]

Side note, Yamaha Korg usually put their best stuff into these arrangers first and trickle down from there...

 

Okay, now you've looped back around to part of what I was clumsily attempting to say above. They just released the Montage--well, okay, last year, I think, but still, and now they throw the Genos into the mix. Seems that would to some extent invalidate the voices in the Montage, as savvy players would now wait for the Montage 2.0, i.e. the "trickle down" version. In that sense, the Genos will...not cannibalize, but maybe suppress the Montage sales, if you follow what I'm saying, as people wait for the inevitable upgrade.

 

Grey

 

When Yamaha finally sat down to do hardware for Montage, they said that the new dsp, onboard flash memory, dac etc. would be the basis for a new top of the line workstation/performance synth and arranger. I believe there is a lot of the Montage both in hardware and sound sets in the Genos.

[Aidan]

Well, as some of you know, I bought a used Tyros 4 a few weeks back. I knew Genos was on the horizon, but knew I couldn't afford (or possibly justify) the sort of money these things go for new.

 

However, even the Tyros 4 is a great sounding machine which is possible to go really deep into. Every time I switch the thing on, I end up spending more than an hour on it it's the crack cocaine of keyboards. As an 'ideas machine', it's difficult to beat.

 

I don't really need a Genos. I can't really afford one. But I sure as hell want one.

 

As far as the cost is concerned, this is Yamaha's cash cow, with mostly older and retired players willing to pay top dollar prices in that respect, it's a similar model to Lowrey organs, albeit the residuals are a little better.

 

The dilemma Yamaha faces is that those buyers won't be around forever and their successors, thanks to the world financial crisis, may well not have that sort of money to spend on a keyboard. And those coming up behind them may not want any sort of hardware synth at all, having been raised on a world of laptops, cheap controllers and Ableton Live.

 

In the meantime, though, Yamaha's money waggon rolls on for another few miles. I counted at least around a dozen people on the PSR forum who said they had pre-ordered, sight unseen (and even pre-demo release, in some cases) a keyboard which will be priced here in the UK at well over £4,000.

 

 

 

[GRollins]

I've never heard anyone on the forum say they were waiting for "trickle-down" technology from an arranger to find its way into anything.

 

 

Just in the relatively short time that I've been here, I've seen at least three or four posts from people saying they were going to wait for the next thing. (And I don't read every thread, so there are likely more.) It's no stretch to think that that same line of reasoning would also apply to the Montage. I don't see any reason that it should uniquely be immune to people wanting the most recent, up-to-date version, even if it means waiting. If nothing else, it gives them more time to save up cash.

 

But, hell, what do I know? I can't wrap my head around the differences between an arranger vs. a workstation vs. a synth. vs. a garden variety keyboard.

 

Grey

[Bobadohshe]

They just released the Montage--well, okay, last year, I think, but still, and now they throw the Genos into the mix. Seems that would to some extent invalidate the voices in the Montage, as savvy players would now wait for the Montage 2.0, i.e. the "trickle down" version.

 

No way man. They are two different things and two entirely different segments of the gigging keyboardist population. Also, the Montage is only a year old. It's still considered very new. Nobody is holding off on a Montage waiting for the Montage ES or whatever.

[hurricane hugo]

I guess it's time to revisit these vids - solo Electone performances by some little girl in a part of the world where people still buy home organs like the Electone:

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

[font:Comic Sans MS]

Not to mention this crazy dude who says he's turned an E70 into 2 CS-type synths - this is up for sale again on Ebay, by the way[/font]

 

[video:youtube]