How to respond to "Peace Activists"

[rold]

[quote]I just saw the news on (Dutch) TV. I saw a family in Afghanistan, they were having 'lunch' or something. A bomb came down, nine children and their father lie dead on the ground. The mother is crying and so am I. [/quote] Damn, that's horrible :( ...I can't think of anything worse than losing your whole family like that... Happened to a friend-of-a-friend a few weeks ago: Dad was walking a few feet behind Mom, their 2 year old daughter and their newborn son in a stroller, some yahoo driving double the speed limit on his motorbike wiped out, the motorbike slid off the street, hit his family walking in front of him and killed the Mom and the two kids. Apparently the guy didn't speak a word for days, just moped around with this blank look on his face and then checked himself into a psychiatric hospital for suicide watch. I hear he's still in there... Damn that is some really crappy news... :( [ 10-28-2001: Message edited by: 'rold ]

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by PeeTee: [b]Having military bases in every nook and cranny of the world leads to reprisals from the nations that you "occupy." You made your bed. Now sleep in it. Former CIA employee of the month for 1972-1984: Osama bin Laden. For his courageous efforts in fighting the U.S.S.R. in Afghanistan.[/b][/quote] You must have missed my earlier post. Canada is a NATO member. As Bruce Willis said..."WELCOME TO THE PARTY, PAL"... All of which means, if you're not wearing a turban and burning a U.S. flag and screaming "Jihad!" YOU are also an eventual target. (Foghorn Leghorn voice) So wake, AH SAY, WAKE THE FUCK UP!

[Tedster]

Hey, Danny M, For the most part, I agree with what you're saying...except that last part. I have a lot of fine Canadian friends. There are people from all sorts of countries that realize that we need to stop terrorism, no matter what it takes, because they've realized that everyone is a potential target. To Pee Wee...I was watching a special on terrorist bombings the other night in Milan, Italy. Damn those Italians, serves 'em right for having those Italian military bases all over the world. Or maybe Mama Osama just doesn't like pizza. And, the bombing of an innocent family in Afghanistan is a true tragedy. No one would underplay that. A true tragedy. [ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Tedster ]

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Macartie: [b] I know this is hypothetical, but if Bin Laden were hiding out in Saudi Arabia or Egypt (where, supposedly, most members of his organization are from), the US government's response would probably be very different. Don't forget that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Egypt, and others have horrible governments with histories of nasty human rights violations too.[/b][/quote] "Horrible" as opposed to whom? Our new friends, the Russians? Our old friend, Panama? Or maybe you want to compare them to that North American country that supported slavery for two-hundred years while it was killing off its indigenous population. Human rights violations? Yes, but look at the types of prople that they have to deal with on a daily basis. Bloody-thirsty siucidal maniacs are new to us; not to them. The extremists are a cancer within these countries, because they won't settle for anything less than a government fully aligned with their own skewed ideals of what Islam stands for. The secular governments of countries like Egypt and Jordan have been under attack for decades. At least Egypt, Syria, et al. HAVE governments, government that are recognized by the U.N., not some monstrocity out-of-control cult that only Pakistan recognizes as a legitimate ruling body (and that's only because Pakistan backed the Taliban in its infancy, i.e. before it went totally out of control). We might have been able to negotiate with a nation; Afghanistan is a land ruled by criminals.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by lrossmusic@hotmail.com: [b] Actually I guess the whole human family could be traced to the same ancestry if you go back far enough.[/b][/quote] Remember the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, the cradle of civilization? We're ALL Middle Easterners - all Iraqi's, actually. ;) Now it's time for us to ACT like a family, to work out our differences, to treat each other with respect, and to stive toward a world where terrorism is pointless. The organizations behind 9/11 have to be dismantled and disbanded, but violence can only go so far. Israel has been putting up a tough fight for 54 years, and they're worse off than ever. There's a thin line between security and oppression, and oppressed people have a habit of making life miserable for their oppressors. The cycle must be eventually broken if our children are to live in a terror-free (or at least, terror-minimized) world.

[Tedster]

Dansouth said... >>>Or maybe you want to compare them to that North American country that supported slavery for two-hundred years while it was killing off its indigenous population. I'd like to think that certain country was learning something, slowly but surely, and that it had made some progress in the last 140, even the last 40 years. But ya know...I think it still boils down to the fact that some people are just plain ol' dickheads...whether they wear a turban, a white hood, a Nike stocking cap in the middle of summer, or just the dickhead that cuts in front of you in the checkout line. Folks is folks. Some of 'em are assholes. Some of 'em aren't. Hopefully there are more of the latter than the former, but you still have to deal with the former. [ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Tedster ]

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by sign: [b]I just saw the news on (Dutch) TV. I saw a family in Afghanistan, they were having 'lunch' or something. A bomb came down, nine children and their father lie dead on the ground. The mother is crying and so am I.[/b][/quote] Did the TV (Dutch) show the Taliban hiding troops and weapons in the vicinty of the residential area to deliberately put that family in harm's way?? Did the TV show the Taliban hiding troops and weapons in a senior citizen home, or a hospital, or a Red Cross facility?? Every sane and decent human being is horrified by war...no question about it... The vermin that started this whole thing, Bin Laden, Al queda, the whole rats nest over there...they had their chance to avoid all this....just turn over "Mountain Boy".... after 6,000+ of our citizens being slaughtered whilst they were trying to have a normal day, let's get real, folks....did you really just expect the U.S to sit back or I should say, "bend over" and grab our ankles, and wait for Binny Boy to stick it in us deeper, then break it off, without any retaliation?? I wasn't going to jump back into this, but I'm really tired of this crap....

[Tedster]

Precisely, Captain54. That's their strategy. Use human shields, and then accuse us of barbarism when innocent people die. Just like us, putting up the WTC as a human shield over that secret military base under Manhattan (tongue planted firmly in a sarcastic cheek).

[Chip McDonald]

This all makes me ill.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by sign: [b]I just saw the news on (Dutch) TV. I saw a family in Afghanistan, they were having 'lunch' or something. A bomb came down, nine children and their father lie dead on the ground. The mother is crying and so am I.[/b][/quote] No she's not. The mother was killed; the man and the nine children are still alive. (I saw it on CNN this evening.) Details aside, no one wants to see innocent people killed. But think of all of the innocent people that bin Laden and his army killed on 9/11. Then think of the countless more that will be killed if al Qaeda is not stopped. These guys are as dangerous as Hitler was. Some people will get caught in the crossfire. Maybe even WE will in the midst of another al Queda attack. But the war must be waged if there is hope for an end to the violence. I believe that there is hope in all of this. The IRA is beginning to decommission its weapons. The Basque separatists in Spain are considering doing the same. Countries with long histories of antagonism are banding together to fight terrorism. Israel is likely to pull out of the occupied territories and work toward the establishment of a Palestinian state. There is much to be gained if a steady, careful approach is taken. Loss of life along the way is inevitable and tragic, but these changes will not happen without sacrifice. Bin Laden will kill millions before he's finished if we don't finish him first; unfortunately, casualties are a reality of warfare.

[sign]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b] No she's not. The mother was killed; the man and the nine children are still alive. [/b][/quote] Just details Dan, you are right about the mother, it's in the morning papers. A father and his seven children and two children of his neighbours were killed in Kabul by a bomb 'attack' on their home. Last saturday three villages were accidently bombed. International criticism is increasing.

[Tedster]

None of the critical countries had 6000 or so people killed in one attack.

[sign]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]None of the critical countries had 6000 or so people killed in one attack.[/b][/quote] Totally agreed Theodore, and the people who are responsible for those 6000 should be punished, no doubt. But the nine children and the father are as innocent as the 6000. IMHO this 'war' is insane, what will we achieve?? I wish I had a solution, but I guess nobody has.

[whosmatt]

Sounds like the "war on drugs." Spend a lot of money, jail (or kill) a lot of innocent people, take their stuff and sell it to finance more war. I think that the US bombing Afghanistan is totally pointless and a VERY bad way to go about catching terrorists, if that's the real goal. I think the US is just taking the opportunity to try and topple an admittedly brutal regime to restore one that they have more control over. but you already knew that. matt [quote]Originally posted by sign: [b] IMHO this 'war' is insane, what will we achieve?? I wish I had a solution, but I guess nobody has.[/b][/quote]

[Kris]

Some achievements of this war... 1) A country that doesn't allow known terrorists and murderers total freedom to hatch their plots. 2) A country that doesn't enslave it's women and children. 3) A country that has a government worthy of foreign aid for it's millions of starving people. 4) A country who's way of life is not a civil war 5) A country who doesn't have to sell Heroin to survive I'm sure there are many other "achievements" that can be listed.

[timrocker]

[quote]Originally posted by PeeTee: [b]What's gonna happen next? You're gonna find out that it's your own extremist Americans that are anthraxing your own people. Then you're gonna find an excuse to bomb Iraq again. Ho hum...[/b][/quote] :eek: PeeTee, please. Aren't you riding us awfully hard? I mean, us as U.S. citizens, just the average joe down here. What can I say to show you that we're basically good-intentioned folks with a basically good-intentioned government that we participate in? I'm open to learning from any mistakes that we as a people and our government have made, but can we start with history and fact? I'm personally not down on you or your nation at all. I'm just hurting from the recent wound that was Sept. 11th. How can I reach you with the hope of a better world, the promise of freedom, the triumph of caring and reason over fear and desperation?

[whosmatt]

[quote]Originally posted by PeeTee: [b]What's gonna happen next? You're gonna find out that it's your own extremist Americans that are anthraxing your own people. Then you're gonna find an excuse to bomb Iraq again. Ho hum...[/b][/quote] The funny thing is, i think you're right.

[timrocker]

Whosmatt; Yeah, that is pretty funny-a thought without a scrap of basis in fact. Think on. :rolleyes:

[whosmatt]

[quote]Originally posted by timrocker: [b]Whosmatt; Yeah, that is pretty funny-a thought without a scrap of basis in fact. Think on. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote] Oh, come on. you think the US would have an inkling of reservation about attacking Iraq again? And after McVeigh bombs a gov't bldg in Oklahoma City you think a few anthrax laced letters are too far out for american terrorists? I don't claim to know what will happen next, but an ineffective bombing campaign and a "anti-terrorism" bill that basically legalizes gov't spying on its citizens aren't my ideas of steps in the right direction. matt

[timrocker]

:o Sorry, Whosmatt. I dealt on you kind of harshly there in my last post. I'll be good now. These are trying times and I just want to emphasize the positive and make more of that.

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by whosmatt: [b] I don't claim to know what will happen next, but an ineffective bombing campaign and a "anti-terrorism" bill that basically legalizes gov't spying on its citizens aren't my ideas of steps in the right direction. matt[/b][/quote] Matt, How are you judging that the bombing campaign is ineffective? That's kinda hard to judge from way out here. Considering we've been bombing for nearly 4 weeks, and what... a hundred or so non-combatants have been killed by mistake... That means the vast majority of deaths have been against the military targets. That's taking its toll. If you thought this would all be over in a hurry, or with just a few well placed bombs, you haven't been listening to Rumsfeld or any of the other leaders who have been saying over and over, "this is a marathon, not a sprint". Also, the anti-terrorism bill increases the power of the government by adding to their capability for "spying" as you put it on suspected terrorists. Did you know the gov't agencies still have to have a court order to use these new powers? And that a court regularly oversees the use of this. But I bet you don't trust the courts either... BTW, would you prefer the "spying" style of the Taliban... where your neighbors are encouraged to spy on you... where any picture of a person or animal is a criminal offense... where shaving your beard, or even owning the razor can get you beaten or worse... where your mom, wife, sister can be beaten or worse for going outside without a male escort? You know the rest. Freedom has a price. Most Americans are willing to pay it. War is HELL. Get used to it. guitplayer

[whosmatt]

I don't claim that war is not hell, and yes, i don't trust the courts. And freedom DOES have a price, but I don't think it's to be paid in bombing an already decimated country. I don't dispute that the taliban is a brutal regime. But my characterization of the bombing campaign as ineffective comes from reports from inside Afghanistan that the Northern Alliance leaders are growing increasinginly frustrated with the US attacks NOT attacking the taliban positions where they really need help. this from http://news.bbc.co.uk "Northern Alliance soldiers watched as the jets attacked the Taleban positions at Dast-e-Qala. One Northern Alliance commander said it would help his troops break through the Taleban lines. But BBC correspondent Jonathan Charles, who watched the raids, says there is no sign of an imminent assault against the 6,000 Taleban soldiers said to be in the area. He adds that it will take a lot more than a few isolated American air attacks to spur the badly-equipped and poorly-trained Northern Alliance into action." This is the best example I could find today, but I have seen more. It just leads me to believe that the US is just dropping bombs now because they don't know what else to do. I have heard assertations that the bombing campaign continues because the first attempts at ground action (last week? 2 weeks ago?) failed miserably. Where were the headlines on that one? What is the real goal here? I have no idea. I'm not sure how this will all pan out, but I don't feel any safer now than I did a month ago. Do you? [quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b] Matt, How are you judging that the bombing campaign is ineffective? That's kinda hard to judge from way out here. Considering we've been bombing for nearly 4 weeks, and what... a hundred or so non-combatants have been killed by mistake... That means the vast majority of deaths have been against the military targets. That's taking its toll. If you thought this would all be over in a hurry, or with just a few well placed bombs, you haven't been listening to Rumsfeld or any of the other leaders who have been saying over and over, "this is a marathon, not a sprint". Also, the anti-terrorism bill increases the power of the government by adding to their capability for "spying" as you put it on suspected terrorists. Did you know the gov't agencies still have to have a court order to use these new powers? And that a court regularly oversees the use of this. But I bet you don't trust the courts either... BTW, would you prefer the "spying" style of the Taliban... where your neighbors are encouraged to spy on you... where any picture of a person or animal is a criminal offense... where shaving your beard, or even owning the razor can get you beaten or worse... where your mom, wife, sister can be beaten or worse for going outside without a male escort? You know the rest. Freedom has a price. Most Americans are willing to pay it. War is HELL. Get used to it. guitplayer[/b][/quote]

[sign]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b] War is HELL. Get used to it. guitplayer[/b][/quote] War is worse than hell I sincerely hope I will never get used to it. In the mean time there is another war showed to us than what's really happening IMO. Kind of a media war or propaganda war, actually they show us very little. What has happened so far, a couple of terrorists with kitchen knifes were capable to kill 6000+ innocent people. They had one simple reason for their act: HATE, pure blind hate. I saw some individuals on TV telling a hundred or more times 'they would smoke them out of their holes and bring them to justice'. After a month they started a 'war against terrorism' and began the disaster that's still happening. The terrorists are still 'in their hole' and are gaining more hate. There is not much left to destroy in Afghanistan. More than a month ago I was afraid this would happen and I also said this is going to be worse than Vietnam unless we stop this madness. Bin Laden is so full of hate he and his brothers will try to attack America even much harder than 9/11 I'm afraid there's no way back. Next time you see George W. on TV, take a good look at his eyes, I don't trust him.

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by Kris: [b]Some achievements of this war... 1) A country that doesn't allow known terrorists and murderers total freedom to hatch their plots. 2) A country that doesn't enslave it's women and children. 3) A country that has a government worthy of foreign aid for it's millions of starving people. 4) A country who's way of life is not a civil war 5) A country who doesn't have to sell Heroin to survive I'm sure there are many other "achievements" that can be listed.[/b][/quote] I think those are "hopeful achievements" or goals. Exactly though, Kris...

[Tedster]

Imagine a world without war. It would be beautiful, wouldn't it? We probably would have been a British Colony, where slavery was practiced by our sister country, the Confederate States of America, up until 1945 or so. Then everything east of the Rockies would be speaking German, and up until 1960 or so there would have been selectively placed concentration camps to rid the country of Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, etc....everything west of the Rockies or so would be under Japanese domination. Sounds like paradise to me. (Intensely sarcastic tone). Yup, we wouldn't need war, if only they'd JUST BE NICE!!!

[Hippie]

[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] Ahhh...mmm...???...well, I don't know...could be, but I can also read it the other way too. Hippie...where you comin' from...did I miss your meaning? Either way...I got no real beef with anyone, we're just "throwin' shit" out there to be digested by all of us. :D I just get pissed at all the USA bashing...this is a difficult time for most of us...emotions run high. [ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: miroslav ][/b][/quote] miroslav, I'm with ya 110%! I totally agree with you bro. I was just driving your original point home. Sorry about the slow response, since the "upgrade", I haven't been able to log into the bbs with much success, until about an hour ago. As for the "Hippie" handle, I use it because my favorite music comes from the hippie era, '66-72, and I could use a haircut, ...nah! :) No argument here, it's nice to hear there are real americans still out there. peace, love & all that shit! Hippie

[the stranger]

[quote] The extremists are a cancer within these countries, because they won't settle for anything less than a government fully aligned with their own skewed ideals of what Islam stands for. [/quote] Substitute the word Christianity for Islam and repeat the above.

[gufti]

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Kris: Some achievements of this war... 1) A country that doesn't allow known terrorists and murderers total freedom to hatch their plots. 2) A country that doesn't enslave it's women and children. 3) A country that has a government worthy of foreign aid for it's millions of starving people. 4) A country who's way of life is not a civil war 5) A country who doesn't have to sell Heroin to survive I'm sure there are many other "achievements" that can be listed. ------------------------------------------------ You're worried about heroin? There's a country that is one of the largest producers of an incredibly addictive and harmful drug that kills millions around the world every year - Welcome to Marlboro country! Let's stick to the real reasons why this 'war' is happening, not the propaganda. [ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: gufti ]

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by gufti: [b] Let's stick to the real reasons why this 'war' is happening, not the propaganda. [/b][/quote] And what might those reasons be??? Tell us, we're all ears....

[Tedster]

Well, the real reason the war is happening is because us Yanks are all a greedy bunch of warmongering, fat, rich, oppressive, oil-grubbing, arms-selling, backstabbing, capitalist, uncaring, drug-dealing, self-righteous, right wing, poor-foreign-policy-making, politician-trusting, civilian-bombing, bribe-taking, natural-resource-raping bunch of bastards... And Osama and his poor misunderstood band of freedom fighters have no other choice but to give us a taste of our own medicine, so that maybe we'll see the error of our ways and create a paradise like what the Taliban has created in Afghanistan. Now, that's the life I dream of, baby! GEEZ, it's so simple. Why didn't I see that before. Oh, shit, I forgot wife-beating. Dog-kicking, too. Sorry.