How to respond to "Peace Activists"

[Kris]

[quote]Originally posted by gufti: [b]quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're worried about heroin? There's a country that is one of the largest producers of an incredibly addictive and harmful drug that kills millions around the world every year - Welcome to Marlboro country! Let's stick to the real reasons why this 'war' is happening, not the propaganda. [ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: gufti ][/b][/quote] If you can't see the huge differences between nicotine and heroin well then... you've never known someone hooked on heroin.

[lrossmusic]

The immediate reason for this drastic escalation in what I now see has been the ongoing war against Mid-Eastern extremists is obviously the 9/11 catastrophy. That these events brought death on this scale to our homeland is unquestionably why this war has now definately moved to the front burner. However the long history of reasons leading up to these events are not so obvious and are extremely complex to say the very least. In time, like with everything else,I suspect the truth will eventually come out. For now I can understand why many of us would rather not get into the many roots involved in this situation. The wound is too fresh. Personally I'm still hurting too yet also I feel a somewhat urgent need to learn as much as I can about what might be called 'the big picture'. Thanks to the discussions on these boards in particular I've gathered some useful info in a fraction of the time it would have normally taken. As I piece things together I am in a much better position than I was just a few weeks back to judge for myself what might be really going on beneath the surface. Anyway thanks for all the valid points of view and for the links to other useful resources. [ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: lrossmusic@hotmail.com ]

[LeiDeLi]

The arguments of the Peace Activists, presented here, are certainly true and valid on some points. But they also ignore some important points. For example, certainly ANY civilian casualties are tragic and undesireable. But the Taliban was killing an average of about 300 Afghanis per day before this war ever started. So on a day when the Allies accidentally kill 3 civilians, that means that approximately 297 Afghani civilians were *saved* on that day. This main difference is that the Taliban wouldn't report their atrocities to CNN, whereas now there is microscopic coverage of every detail within the country, and certainly the Taliban will try to make propaganda use of every mistake. I wish people would realize that Afghanistan was already steeped in inter-tribal warfare, death, destruction, and famine *long* before the war on terrorism ever began. Study some history books. As a humorous historical note, read or watch "The Man Who Would Be King" by Rudyard Kipling. I actually do respect the viewpoint of a *true* peace activist. Let's take Mahatma Gandhi as an example. Gandhi, and his followers didn't just whine and snipe on local forums. They went out and met the "enemy" face to face. They willfully suffered beatings and death by the enemy in order to simultaneously *actively* resist evil and satisfy the the enemy's bloodlust. If any peace activist is willing to go stand, unarmed, on the front lines of Afghanistan, then I hereby promise to give them an all-expense paid trip. You see, a true non-violent peace activist should study the history of *real* non-violent peace activists. It requires courage and action, not just criticism and whining. Peace activism doesn't mean pacifism; it means forcefully opposing evil--just in a non-violent way. With modern weapons of mass destruction available to terrorist madmen, pacifism would also mean that one is not only willing to submit himself to death and suffering, but also his entire society. I am simply not willing to do that. But remember that if you are a *true* peace activist, there is an all-expense paid trip to Kabul waiting for you, and I will respect your noble efforts. Peace, Rick

[gufti]

Quote: Originally posted by Kris 'If you can't see the huge differences between nicotine and heroin well then... you've never known someone hooked on heroin. ------------------------------------------- I've known smack addicts, a close friend was/is one (at the moment he is off it, but who knows how long before he starts again), I have also watched several family members shrivel away and die from smoking related lung cancer, one of which got it from passive smoking having never touched the stuff. Cigarette abuse is perhaps the biggest drug related killer in the world today. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it more acceptable. A dead cigarette junkie still smells the same as a dead smack junkie. So, once we've rid the world of the smack problem, perhaps Dubya and Blair could turn their attention to destroying the fields of tobacco all over the world, starting in America? That could save, hmmm, a few million lives every year. Fingers crossed.... [ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: gufti ]

[LeiDeLi]

"I can imagine a world without war. And I can imagine us attacking that world....because they would never expect it." ----Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handy

[Kris]

Dude, so they both can kill you...that's not my point... so can too much sugar, or too much steak, or too much time in a tanning booth, or too much vitamin C.... and so on and so on... The main difference is the kind of person you are when you are using the substance. No comparison between nicotine and heroin... so my opinion on heroin is still valid IMHO. A nicotine user is still the same person while a heroin user becomes something different all together.

[lrossmusic]

[quote]Gandhi, and his followers didn't just whine and snipe on local forums. They went out and met the "enemy" face to face. They willfully suffered beatings and death by the enemy in order to simultaneously *actively* resist evil and satisfy the the enemy's bloodlust. [/quote] The issues in India and South Africa that Ghandi confronted were, to my knowledge, hardly parallel to what's being discussed here. Ghandi did indeed advocate non-violent non-co-operation and at times the South African and British governments broke up his peaceful demonstrations with cruel and deadly force. Something similar to that occurred in this country when students demonstating in opposition to the Vietnam war were killed at Kent State College, not to mention Martin Luther King and the many peaceful demonstrations for civil rights . It doesn't make any sense for peace activists demonstrating against our governments policies to go to the front lines in this war. Sorry I don't quite understand your reasoning here. I'm also kind of disappointed you consider legitimate dissension as whining and sniping. Personally I feel in this situation we were compelled to use military force but I haven't shut my mind off to those who disagree. If Muslims, Christian, and Jews worldwide fasted as Ghandi did I doubt the the terrorist would be deterred in the least. Ghandi was a great man in my book but this is a completely different scenerio.

[Danny M]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Well, the real reason the war is happening is because us Yanks are all a greedy bunch of...[/b][/quote] Tedster, I've been putting off saying this for a while, but I'm really glad that there's someone out there with a viewpoint I can relate to. See, folks, here's the thing. I'm not blind to the fact that my country has a boatload of problems. As captain Picard once said, "We humans know our past, even when we're ashamed of it." I'd rather not have to have an armed conflict where perfectly decent people get caught in the crossfire. None of this changes my staunch belief that there is a certain line, which, when crossed, makes it necessary to hit back. The events of 9/11 crossed that line and went all the way into the next county. Are the actions of our government partially to blame for the current situation? Yes. A bad pipe got put into the house, and now it's leaking. That bad pipe was put in to fix another problem, which was highly relevant at the time. Unfortunately, things changed and the pipe went bad to boot. We're going down into the basement with the monkey wrench to fix it right now. Are big oil, economics of all sizes, the Illuminati, aliens, bungie software, and the second gunman on the grassy knoll involved in all of this? Of course. Everything on this rock is so tightly interwoven that no one can do anything without having that action go around the world at least twice. However, for all the reasonable thinking any of us can exhibit, we still get this group which is downright gleeful in saying "It's your fault! It's your fault! La, la, la, la. All you ugly Americans deserve what you get. The WTC destruction was completely warranted. It's such a tragedy that an Afghani citizen was really, really, scared by your evil, low flying aircraft." This is what really ticks me off. You want to go to war with the military? I have no problem with that. Deliberately targeting innocent civilians, [b]especially[/b] with no declared war going on definitely causes me to have a problem. Diplomacy went out the window after the Taliban refused to de-align themselves with the terrorists and cough them up. We gave them options, and they blew it. You want to point fingers? Point at them. "I did not come here to watch my people suffer and die while you discuss it in a committee." -Queen Amidala -Danny

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]But remember that if you are a *true* peace activist, there is an all-expense paid trip to Kabul waiting for you, and I will respect your noble efforts.[/quote] Oh yeah, you're a real intellectual...what an insulting thing to say (your entire post) in response to my comments and the comments of others here. This isn't a game, real people are dieing everyday...not terrorists...people. As a human I hurt for them, telling me I have to be like Ghandi or Jesus or whoever is uncalled for and not logical. [ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Steve LeBlanc ]

[Anderton]

<> I've stayed out of this (something rare for me) because of the mass of contradictory feelings I have. First, I had no doubt this was coming, and if you dig back far enough into the mid-90s, the government did too. Not something specific -- but the fact that terrorism has been a staple of the rest of the world for a long time meant that our luck couldn't hold out forever. There's no question Bin Laden is an evil dude. But he was our guy, just like Noriega and Saddam Hussein. Now we are supporting more of their ilk in order to focus on Bin Laden, and we'll be paying for that in the years ahead. The most uncomfortable feeling for me is that because I lived for some time in Europe, I became very familiar with the history of the Roman Empire. The reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire are complex and subject to debate, but the Mongol hordes definitely had something to do with it. The Romans were equipped to fight big wars to preserve their far-flung empire. The Mongols picked off an outpost here, an outpost there...made some further advances...took their time, and waged war creatively, slowly bleeding Rome to death by forcing their resources to be stretched so thin that no area could be properly defended, nor could society continue on in the way it had. Throw in government corruption at the highest levels, and health problems from such things as lead poisoning (used in their plumbing), and you had a fatal combination of problems that brought down the mightiest and most technically advanced civilization the world had seen. Folks, I hate to be a downer, but we're in very deep trouble. We depend on many "unfriendly" countries for many things upon which our society is dependent, particularly (but not exclusively) oil. And don't buy into the "increase domestic production" argument; there aren't enough proven reserves. The reserves in Russia are considerable, as are Saudi Arabia, but traditionally neither country has been a great ally -- right now they love us 'cause they need our money. And to unlock Russia's oil, it needs to get to tankers on the ocean, which means going through Iran, China, or Afghanistan. Would you want to bet your future on any of those governments? We are the new Romans: technologically advanced, morally ambivalent, with a government whose laws often exist as paybacks for campaign contributions. We even had our own period of "pax Romana" between WWII and now. And now, we are threatened by people who can take advantage of the same technology we've used -- in some cases, we sold it to them -- are not morally ambivalent (they want to kill us, pure and simple), and don't have to answer to a government. Some might interpret the above as being "down" on the US. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. I believe in this country, and much of that is because I've seen large portions of the rest of the world. Yes, our government is corrupt; but compared to many others, it's s symbol of purity. Yes, we treated black people in ways that could only be described as horrific -- but saw the error of our ways, and started trying to repair the damage (maybe someday we'll do that with Native Americans, too). Our scientific research has saved millions of lives around the world. We did the Marshall plan...we don't carry grudges, which is why Germany and Japan, once our bitterest enemies, are now two of our stronger allies. And because many of us are immigrants, we accept those from other countries, whether they're fleeing certain death from persecution, or simply want to try for a better life. It was that same generosity that allowed terrorists to come here, live among us, and ultimately, kill thousands of people. I love my country. Even more than that, I love this world, and the people who inhabit it. We need to do battle with terrorists, no doubt about that. We also need to go battle with our own souls and our own consciences -- what Islam calls the "jihad of the mind." We need to support our government, AND we need to question it. WE are the government, and if left to "someone else" to take care of, we will get the government we deserve. We ALL need to be peace activists, and we ALL need to be prepared to defend -- with force, if needed -- the right to be a peace activist. Yes, I'm a peaceful guy. But do you think if someone started to molest my daughter I'd look the other way? I'd do whatever damage I could, as quickly as possible. I wonder how many people with American flags on their cars voted in the last election. I wonder how many have written their senators, or given to charity. I wonder how many of them have read the constitution, and understand the Bill of Rights. If you're going to be an American, DO IT RIGHT. Flying a flag isn't enough. It's a full-time occupation. Bombing Afghanistan does not substitute for a civics lesson. So yes, root out terrorism, not just for us, but for the rest of the world. Deplore the loss of innocent life on all sides. Preach and practice tolerance, so no one feels so backed into a corner that their only option is to terrorize. Shoot to kill if someone wants to kill you for no reason other than where you were born. Fight the war against terrorism. But also remember that "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance." And we need to be vigilant whether we're being attacked or not. If we want to be the best country in the world, we have to work at it every day, every week...not just when we're in danger. And if we do, the danger will diminish.

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]Oh yeah, you're a real intellectual...what an insulting thing to say (your entire post) in response to my comments and the comments of others here. This isn't a game, real people are dieing everyday...not terrorists...people. As a human I hurt for them, telling me I have to be like Ghandi or Jesus or whoever is uncalled for and not logical. [/quote] 1. I didn't claim to be an intellectual. But I have read the entire 7-volume text: "The Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi", (as well as the entirety of the Bible and the Qur'an). That is why I know exactly what Gandhi advocated. Yes, this situation is different. That is why I DO NOT advocate passive resistance. 2. Real people ARE dying every day. Fewer Afghanis die everyday during the war than during an "average day" under Taliban occupation. Don't even get me started on the 4000+ killed on 9/11. [quote]telling me I have to be like Ghandi or Jesus or whoever is uncalled for and not logical. [/quote] Then we agree. Evil must be opposed, and the ideal of passive resistance is not practical in this situation. Again, if you want to emulate a peaceful leader who was willing to put his lofty ideals into action, I will respect that. If you just want to whine, complain, and wring your hands, I will ignore you. Ironically, both Gandhi and Jesus were killed for standing up face-to-face with their opponents, not whining why their own people "deserved" what they got. Peace, LeiDeLi

[vintagevibe]

Well said Craig.

[JES]

You'd think after seeing the carnage in New York, Americans would have an idea of the kind of horrible physical and psychological effects that bombing has on civilians. Why innocent civilians in Kabul and elsewhere in Afganistan should go through what people in New York just did (and worse, since there's no equivalent of FDNY in Kabul) is a little beyond me. Punish the 9-11 perpetrators? You bet. Revenge on Afgan civilians and fear for their friends and families? Count me out. --JES

[Skip_dup1]

People, get the notion right out of your heads that bin Laden is doing what he`s alleged to be doing to the U.S. because of our money, our freedom, our selection of toothpastes...that is complete nonsense. It`s entirely about double and triple crossing policies which those paying attention have seen plenty of times before-in the Phillipines, in Panama, in Nicaragua...anyone close to the truth is probably dead or trying to make someone else dead.

[Skip_dup1]

Whoops-replying to an earlier point-sorry. Anyway, The idea started by `let`s get the guy-valid. Then it was `let`s get the government that`s stashing him`-difficult, not impossible. Now it`s `let`s get terrorism anywhere in the world, and any government that may be supporting or involved in any way with terrorists`. Even the military is saying `wha...?`

[lrossmusic]

[quote]Ironically, both Gandhi and Jesus were killed for standing up face-to-face with their opponents, not whining why their own people "deserved" what they got. Peace, LeiDeLi [/quote] To say that Americans "deserved" 9/11 is of course the justification offered by the [b]perpetrators[/b]. However to suggest that anyone who criticizes our foreign policy in the middle-east is implying the same thing is simply false. For one thing our current diplomatic situation didn't just happen overnight but rather evolved over a long period spanning many administrations. This coupled with the ever changing situation in the rest of the world is an enormously big subject and not easily grasped by even the experts. On top of that the average citizen almost never has access to all the information in order to fully understand what's going on nationally let alone internationally. Consequently for many of us our votes are based in large part on an almost blind trust in many areas especially foreign relations. This being the case our system at least allows us to question leadership, to seek clarification, and to peacefully demonstrate when we oppose certain policies or decisions. In this situation none of this means that dissenting Americans feel our nation deserved the attacks but that America is not above self-scrutiny or even contrition if need be. The civil rights demonstrators of the sixties realized that America needed to change its course with regard to race relations. That didn't mean that the innocent victims of black rage deserved it or that the perpetrators were any less guilty.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by sign: [b] Just details Dan, you are right about the mother, it's in the morning papers. A father and his seven children and two children of his neighbours were killed in Kabul by a bomb 'attack' on their home. Last saturday three villages were accidently bombed. International criticism is increasing.[/b][/quote] Internation criticism may be increasing, may not. That's kind of difficult to determine. Just because you see a couple of thousand people demonstrating does not mean that that's how everyone feels. Haven't there been demonstrations in your country by people with whom you do not agree? We have them all them time here in the United States. I hope that people in the international community don't assume that I believe everything that Al Sharpton or the Ku Klux Klan or the Religious Right say just because we're all from the same country. What I DO see is that international COOPERATION is at an all time high. I can't recall a time in history when more nations were galvanized against a foe. I believe that this will not only continue, but will flourish. China, for instance, is staying low key, but they have their issues with al Qeada, as well. Al Qeada is one terrorist attack away from awakening ANOTHER "slumbering giant", one with a history of dealing much more harshly with their enemies than the U.S. is dealing with Afghanistan. There are no rosy pictures. They world has turned ugly, and it's going to stay that way for a long time. But we are doing what we have to do, specifically band together against anarchy and barbarism for the good of all humanity and civilization. If you have ever read any of my "political" posts, you know that I am an outspoken supporter of punishing the guilty and sparing the innocent. I would love to see bin Laden and al Qeada punished severly without a drop of civilian blood, but how is that possible? We can't send the police over to knock on his door and ask him to confess. If you have a suggestion on how to wage this war, please post it. I think that we are presently doing a good job, but we have signed on to an impossibly difficult objective. I agree with something I heard on Charlie Rose the other evening. Every time a civilian is killed by a U.S. bomb, a bunch of new suicide bombers sign up. That's why I stated in an earlier post that violence is of limited use. When justice turns to oppression, it loses its effectiveness and perpetuates the problems that it tried initially to resolve. So, I want dearly for this conflict to end without civilian bloodshed. If you have an idea as to how to make that happen, please let us know, and I'll forward your thoughts to Mr. Bush. For better or for worse, the United States HAS to take action. After the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, we took some guys to court. Then came the Embassy bombings and the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole. The Embassy bombers were still waiting for sentencing on 9/11, and the Cole issue is still under investigation. If we turn the other cheek, the bad guys will keep coming. If we pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia and kiss Israel goodbye tomorrow, they'll keep coming. These guys are not rational, and they're not going to stop. Ever. All we can do is make it as difficult and uncomfortable as possible to operate in America, and ideally anywhere in the civilized world.

[Skip_dup1]

IMO some action must be taken. The people behind this need to be found and flash fried. But cranking up the entire war machine is as likely to make it difficult and uncomfortable for Americans to operate in America as anyone else. We need targeted, focused action. The Israelis are good at that, we need the legislative tools to be able to do the same, with limitations that preclude abuse.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]But we are doing what we have to do, specifically band together against anarchy and barbarism for the good of all humanity and civilization.[/quote] You do realize we're specifically banding together [b]WITH[/b] anarchy and barbarism right now. Take a look at the list of our allies.

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]However to suggest that anyone who criticizes our foreign policy in the middle-east is implying the same thing is simply false.[/quote] I don't know if *you* are implying that, but many people, with the similar argument, have stated explicitely that they do think we deserved it. So my statement isn't false, it just may not apply to you personally. :) Also, I actually agree that we should all retain the right to criticise our foreign policy. But, I also recognize that right now we are at war. During a war, the primary goal is to win. Winning means killing and crippling the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible so that the war will be over as quickly and efficiently as possible, for an overall minimum of killing and human suffering. You retain your right to criticise. But I also retain my right to criticise your criticism. :) I believe that those who are whining about foreign policy mistakes of the past are contributing to a destructive mentality of self-recrimination, and helping to weaken the resolve of the people to win the war quickly and forcefully. This is exactly what the terrorists want, and promotes the goals of the enemy (whether you realize it or not). So many of us, while we *could* criticize, have the self control and common sense to curtail our criticism in a time of national crisis, until a time when an overwhelmingly evil enemy has been thoroughly disposed of. First things first. We all have the right of freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean we have to blabber away without thinking. I am just asking us to exercise the higher perogative of speaking what is right for freedom. Peace, LeiDeLi

[Dogfur]

[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] You retain your right to criticise. But I also retain my right to criticise your criticism. :) I believe that those who are whining about foreign policy mistakes of the past are contributing to a destructive mentality of self-recrimination, and helping to weaken the resolve of the people to win the war quickly and forcefully. This is exactly what the terrorists want, and promotes the goals of the enemy (whether you realize it or not). So many of us, while we *could* criticize, have the self control and common sense to curtail our criticism in a time of national crisis, until a time when an overwhelmingly evil enemy has been thoroughly disposed of. First things first. We all have the right of freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean we have to blabber away without thinking. I am just asking us to exercise the higher perogative of speaking what is right for freedom. Peace, LeiDeLi[/b][/quote] -------------------------------------------------- Let me offer some criticism, as is my "right". There is no "right" time for a people to be ignorant - "Whining" about past foreign policy might help change it in the future - The ignorance of the details of this policy is the symptom of a weakened resolve of the American people, not the cause. You infer the American people at large are too stupid to know and discuss the details. We are a great nation and should be able to stand the truth about sordid subjects, since we all reap the benefits - a rich economy. You seem to think this questioning of our leaders and their policies is untimely and "blabber" while I think it is my duty as an American to bring it to the forefront to help us more effectively work our way out of this dire situation. Patriotic in dissent, Dogfur

[LeiDeLi]

OK, dogfur, I really am trying to be reasonable. You said: [quote]I think it is my duty as an American to bring it to the forefront to help us more effectively work our way out of this dire situation.[/quote] So I searched back through this thread to find what point you are trying to make. I didn't find a post. Did I miss it ? My point is that *once we are at war* the prime directive is to win the war quickly. In war, quickly unavoidably implies ruthlessly. If you have a *specific* criticism of foreign policy, that is backed up with *facts*, then of course we could discuss them. But mere generalized dissent is counterproductive. I know war is uncomfortable and nasty business. I know that the US has not always followed saintly policies. How does any of that compare with the magnitude of evil which we are now facing ? Again, it is all a matter of priorities and where we should focus our attention: previous mistakes, or the future survival of civilization. Do you think that if Osama/the Taliban had gained possession of a nuclear weapon, that they would have said: "Don't use that nuke, it might accidentally kill too many innocent Americans." ? Peace, LeiDeLi

[Dogfur]

LeiDiLi; I am glad you are trying to be reasonable. My point, in which I responded to your statement in the previous post, is that those who disagree on our foreign policy should speak up now, and GODDAMN LOUD! Our politicians are bought and sold by the highest bidder ( I'll try to get some evidence to quote for you, but I'm sure even you aren't blind to this ) and will probably create a new enemy to contend with later, the same way we are dealing with these peices of shit ( Bin Laden,Taliban)now. I've made other points to the same effect in the " Role of Big Oil" thread and the "Scary Article worth the read" thread, but this does address what to do with Peace Activists - Listen and Consider their view. Take Care; Dogfur

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]Our politicians are bought and sold by the highest bidder ( I'll try to get some evidence to quote for you, but I'm sure even you aren't blind to this ) [/quote] Certainly there has been corruption in government at various times, but what specific allegation are you making ? What is the evidence ? Who specifically are you making this allegation against ? Are they being bribed ? Do you really believe they are connected to the terrorist attack ? If they were, that would be a well-defined crime: complicity to mass murder. You have presented *no* facts, so I think you can see why I am skeptical. [quote]....and will probably create a new enemy to contend with later, [/quote] The evidence from our dealings with terrorism thus far is that they think they can get away with it because they think we are weak-willed and WON'T hunt them down relentlessly. [quote]I've made other points to the same effect in the " Role of Big Oil" thread and the "Scary Article worth the read" thread,[/quote] That is exactly why I keep pressing for specific, verifiable facts, or specific allegations against specific individuals. "Big Oil" is just too vague. "Scarey Articles" raise paranoid delusions through vague connections.....none of which have a shred of corroboratable evidence. [quote] but this does address what to do with Peace Activists - Listen and Consider their view. [/quote] I listened..I considered their view...and then I noticed that it was based on non-existent facts, an uninformed view of world history, inaccurate understanding of religion, and fantasy politics. That is why I am pointing out corroboratable facts that anyone can easily verify for themselves. All I ask is that we talk about facts. If you have some, let's hear 'em. :) Peace, LeiDeLi

[Dogfur]

LeiDiLi; I guess we'll start here - I thank you for pushing me to provide more of a background to why I am suspicious of our administration's activities. Just a few searches have shown me that there are some real nuts out there, and you are right to expect some kind of credibility for any "accusations". I am finding all kinds of whacked out stuff, but this link takes you to a fairly credible article. It shows Dick Cheney's involvement with Halliburton Co., while doing business in Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria. Some of the world's more nasty governments. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Oil_watch/Cheney_Halliburton.html Although slanted ( what isn't ) it appears to be well researched and straightforward in its' description of Cheney's involvement as CEO while the company flourished. It does not offer proof to wrongdoing, but more an insight to the mindset of our vice-president. I have even met Cheney before ( I played a republican rally in Reno NV the week before the election ) and my thoughts were " Why is somebody this smart involved in the political circus, saying these stupid things?". Tonight's research has most certainly shown (at least shown me) why. Thanks, Dogfur :eek: :eek: [ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: Dogfur ]

[lrossmusic]

[quote]LeiDeLi wrote: I don't know if *you* are implying that, but many people, with the similar argument, have stated explicitly that they do think we deserved it.[/quote] No I definitely don't feel we deserved it and as I mentioned in my earlier analogy neither did victims of black rage. In either case the perpetrators are the guilty ones and yet in both cases the underlying complexities reveal policies that might be said to have helped to incite the crimes. [quote]I believe that those who are whining about foreign policy mistakes of the past are contributing to a destructive mentality of self-recrimination, and helping to weaken the resolve of the people to win the war quickly and forcefully. This is exactly what the terrorists want, and promotes the goals of the enemy (whether you realize it or not). So many of us, while we *could* criticize, have the self control and common sense to curtail our criticism in a time of national crisis, until a time when an overwhelmingly evil enemy has been thoroughly disposed of. First things first.[/quote] Actually the peace activists who do not favor our current bombing campaign are addressing what they feel is a present mistake. They believe are current actions will do more harm than good and only increase terrorism in the long run. So it stands to reason for them that they should protest now and not later after these policies sink our nation into what they believe will be even deeper difficulties. Also given the complexities and long history of some of the political issues involved in this situation it is debatable as to whether we can ever "thoroughly dispose of ' terrorism, therefore some activists propose we can at least minimize it more effectively by other means. It's worth considering and is not necessarily IMHO weakening our resolve in doing so. [quote]My point is that *once we are at war* the prime directive is to win the war quickly………..Again, it is all a matter of priorities and where we should focus our attention: previous mistakes, or the future survival of civilization. Do you think that if Osama/the Taliban had gained possession of a nuclear weapon, that they would have said: "Don't use that nuke, it might accidentally kill too many innocent Americans." ? [/quote] I'll be the first to admit that I don't have all the facts but I doubt that this conflict will be resolved quickly through massive military force or otherwise. I think as far as our priorities and focus are concerned we should more or less address the symptoms and search for the root causes simultaneously. By this I mean go after the perpetrators but at the same time examine and openly debate the roots of the issues involved so as to plot a reasonable strategy for the long run. Like any illness it's bound to reappear if we don't get at the root of it. Now if this situation were to escalate to a war involving nuclear weapons some might assume that we could probably end things very quickly. While we all pray that this doesn't happen and remembering President Truman's decision which abruptly ended WWII , in this case even if we had to drop the A-bomb (say in retaliation for an attack on a nuclear plant) I think it's pretty obvious that the war on terrorism might still not be over. [quote]We all have the right of freedom of speech. But that doesn't mean we have to blabber away without thinking. I am just asking us to exercise the higher prerogative of speaking what is right for freedom.[/quote] I certainly don't think most of the peace activists are "blabbing away without thinking'. They offer some well thought out and legitimate concerns in my view. Ironically they too feel they are speaking about what is "right for freedom'. Even though I might not agree in total I feel this debate is absolutely necessary, even healthy and especially at this time. [ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: lrossmusic@hotmail.com ]

[Dogfur]

LeiDiLi; Here is a link to another fairly well researched article showing GWB's reversal of policy based on energy industry campaign contributions ( in this case coal ). Again, I'm not taking this as total truth, but the facts seem to be there. http://www.opensecrets.org/alerts/v6/alertv6_11.asp I really do hope for peace, Dogfur [ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: Dogfur ]

[Dogfur]

LeiDiLi; Wow, now I'm having fun with this! Here is another link to a credible article providing the names of the corporate ties to GWB's cabinet and advisors. I really liked this one, especially the corporate icons. http://www.opensecrets.org/bush/cabinet.asp Again, I don't take this as total truth, but I don't see a need to go on to provide actual proof of our government being bought and sold. Cheers, Dogfur

[Steve LeBlanc]

Thanks for the links Dogfur. [quote]and then I noticed that it was based on non-existent facts, an uninformed view of world history, inaccurate understanding of religion, and fantasy politics[/quote] LeiDeLi, I'm not going to do research for you or even attempt to teach you anything. It's up to you to get your facts straight...if you choose to limit your sources of information to mainstream press, well...those are the only 'facts' you'll know. All I've done is present my opinion on these threads...I really don't feel I have to back it up with facts. Your [b]assumption[/b] that I or anyone else in this thread is uninformed about world history or have an inaccurate understanding of religion is [b]HIGHLY[/b] insulting. I've shared some links to articles in this and other threads in the hope that it would inspire a few people to really 'Do The Math' so they know what the hell is going on. I'm not here to teach you or anyone else world history or current events...there is no conspiracy...all the truth is available if you're willing to spend time on it. Printing out a few articles on the internet ain't gonna do it...you've got to read some books, the good ones are over 1000 pages and you can't just read them like a novel. If we want to take responsibility for our Country/Patriotism...we have to commit ourselves to study, if this has never been important to you before, you have a lot more work ahead of you. [b]Peace and Love[/b], Steve [ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: Steve LeBlanc ]

[Charlie-brm]

Good attitude Steve. (really!) I used to travel on industrial/chemical business about four times a year covering an average 5 cities in the midwest and northeast. And I've done business with central banks or mints; travelling to Syria, Eqypt, Greece, Cyprus, France; ie. I wasn't a tourist. The more I travelled the more I found people are all the same. They worry about their jobs, they try to keep up their home's appearance, they get protective when their daughters' get to be young women, they like to unwind after work and they bitch about traffic. I could tell you a story about the VP of the Syrian National Bank and you'd think I was talking about bubba from Brownsville. I will point out one thing that obviously shapes my views, I don't live in the U.S. While trying to catch the day's events on the TV in my hotel rooms, I feel for anyone trying to use U.S. networks to learn anything about what's going on outside the U.S. I mean local news leads with a 7-11 hold up and high school sports scores. They could have you medicated and spoon fed, who'd know? I've posed this to other travellers and they agree. I can't remember anything eye opening outside of PBS Frontline, which I can get on cable at home. Changing subjects a little; Craig Anderton was on to something regarding comparisons to the Roman Empire. I am not concerned with the good and bad, but it's enough to recognize that the world experiences a series of empires. These are the dominant nations/cultures of their time, including Ancient Eqyptian, Chinese, Roman, Arabic, Holy Roman, British and currently American. With that ascendancy comes responsibility and eventually accountability. It can't be avoided, it can't be ignored. It can be learned. When the activities of the empire eventually are overburdened by changes at the periphery of their influence the cycle is headed for a change in direction. How it happens and how long it takes depends on how well equipped the empire is to handle change. Some managed it fairly gracefully, some with complete ruination and a reversal of human progress. Unfortunately I can't recall one that didn't involve violence.