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How to respond to "Peace Activists"


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>> It seems so difficult for many of us to admit that there are people out there that you can't reason with. They have no real issues. >> If you are referring to any of my posts, let me just say that it's rather easy for me to understand and admit that there are people out there that you cannot reason with. I believe that bin Laden is past reasoning with. However, I do think that the guy is operating on principals and issues that he believes are right. I also believe that he is wrong about these issues, and believe that there is no way that anyone will ever change his mind. Extremists of all kind frequently operate in this manner. That isn't what I reacted to, and that isn't what I have been discussing. My point was simply that our current and future administrations should have a clear understanding of why there is so much resentment in the Middle East towards the United States and its policies, which I feel are quite wretched in this region. This is in part to not make the same mistakes over and over again. I am not for a minute advocating that we stop trying to put an end to bin Laden's terrorist network(s). I think that given what he has apparently done, he *should* be stopped. I think that given that the Taliban is harboring bin Laden and his cronies and have been given ample warning, they should be toppled (in fact, bin Laden is basically propping up Omar and his regime...). Again, I am simply hoping that there is some thought behind why there is resentment among many Arabs and Muslims, what steps can be taken to make sure that our future decisions are more fair and humane to people in Afghanistan and the Middle East, and what can be done to alleviate further resentment. The last of these points is fairly obvious since this will in part be fair to other people (hopefully), reduce further resentment, reduce casualties on our side and their side, reduce the number of terrorist attacks aimed at the U.S., and a host of other things. And, as always, I find blind retribution without consideration or thought to be questionable at best. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows
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The term "peace activists", following a couple of years of American's living in a two sided war, two side meaning the one over there and the one that will take place here and will put American's in touch with the reality of a society under siege, the term will cease to be in the popular vocabulary of American society. Anyone who truly appreciates the way of life we can have in America and see's the passing of what will be a full onslaught to destroy that way of life, will see the light. The only question amongst each of us will be how much has to be lost before we're willing to see the light. ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url]

William F. Turner

Songwriter

turnersongs

 

Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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William, I love you man but a lot of your last post read like a riddle...I understand what you're saying regarding American's never before having to deal with the 'real' threat of terrorism on our soil but the rest isn't translating well. British citizens have been dealing with terrorism for years, it hasn't stopped the concept of Peace there. Anyone truly following world events of the last 40 years should not have been surprised by recent events...shocked at the magnitude of 9/11 but not surprised. Yes we'll have to learn as a society to deal with the uncertainty of unknown/stealthy enemies attacking in numerous ways but why does that have to kill the beautiful concept (ideal) of Peace. Based on what I know about all of this I can't find any reason in bombing Afghanistan at this time...that doesn't mean I'm a coward or that I wouldn't fight for what I love...it just means I don't see War as the answer. I think I can logically determine this regardless of the new threats to our way of life...both don't necessarily go hand in hand. History tells us War is ALWAYS about Greed and little else...sure the threats are real and the death is real but the motivation is rarely pure. Just my stance...take it or leave it. Peace and Love, Steve
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I think there has to be a brand new approach taken if we EVER hope to come out victorious in such a struggle. A military, financial and political approach will never do it, it has been tried before: [quote]The book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia" tells us [b] The U.S. and Pakistan decided to install a stable regime in Afghanistan around 1994 -- a regime that would end the country's civil war and thus ensure the safety of the Unocal pipeline project. Impressed by the ruthlessness and willingness of the then-emerging Taliban to cut a pipeline deal, the U.S. State Department and Pakistan's ISI intelligence service agreed to funnel arms and funding to the Taliban in their war against the ethnically Tajik Northern Alliance. It has been reported that as recently as 1999, U.S. taxpayers paid the entire annual salary of every single Taliban government official, all in the hopes of returning to the days of dollar-a-gallon gas. [/quote][/b] Now the tables have turned but the approach hasn't - it's now the Northern Alliance that is being funded and armed in hopes of turning over the Taliban, yet when this approach was attempted - and kept up until 1999 - it backfired. There NEEDS to be a new approach taken here. There is widespread US resentment in the middle east, and if lessons can't be learned, the cycle will continue, the war will never end. In 20 years, this is who we'll be shooting at: [img]http://canoe.ca/Oct19/photo6.jpg[/img] And when he gets killed, his son will turn into an anti-US extremist, and so it will continue until his bloodline - and those of others with the same sentiments (probably millions of middle eastern people) - are eliminated. Destroying the body will do nothing. You have to change the attitude. Don't ask me how, but I think it would be wise to give that some thought before stretching out military action for decades. Peace, Harold
meh
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There's a show on TLC *right now* called "Behind the Terror - Understanding the Enermy"...it's gives a good glimpse into why the US is so hated in the middle east. Excellent Show. This message has been edited by rold on 10-19-2001 at 11:01 PM
meh
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>>I love you man but a lot of your last post read like a riddle<< Hehehe..... the events that are unfolding are and will play like a riddle. I'm blessed. God has blessed me with black and white vision and it's all about winning and losing in the context of the laws of His written word in the book I keep close to me. >>Just my stance...take it or leave it. Peace and Love<< We're very much alike. I just walk a simple path. Peace and love are at the end of that path. It's written in black and white. ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url] This message has been edited by WFTurner on 10-20-2001 at 12:17 AM

William F. Turner

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turnersongs

 

Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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What follows is my bit of "explanation" as to why "they" hate the US. It's a bit long, but I think it's important to understand the "real" reasons for today's hatred. ________________________________________ Of course, this is all God's fault. [b]He set up the hatred between the Islam states and Israel. It's all a historical soap opera really, complete with adultery, a bastard child, jealousy, and plenty of hatred. It all stems from God's decision to provide Abraham and Sara a child... after Sara had never conceived and had passed child birth age. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Sara convinced Abraham to have a child with her (Arab/Egyptian) servant. Abraham agrees and Ismael is born... Abraham's "first-born" son.[/b] [quote][i]From: Bible, Revised Standard. Genesis, from The holy Bible, Revised Standard version Electronic Text Center, University of Virginia Library[/i] Genesis Chapter 16 1: Now Sar'ai, Abram's wife, bore him no children. She had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar; 2: and Sar'ai said to Abram, "Behold now, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children; go in to my maid; it may be that I shall obtain children by her." And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sar'ai. 3: So, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, Sar'ai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife. 4: And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress. 5: And Sar'ai said to Abram, "May the wrong done to me be on you! I gave my maid to your embrace, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked on me with contempt. May the LORD judge between you and me!" 6: But Abram said to Sar'ai, "Behold, your maid is in your power; do to her as you please." Then Sar'ai dealt harshly with her, and she fled from her. 7: The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8: And he said, "Hagar, maid of Sar'ai, where have you come from and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from my mistress Sar'ai." 9: The angel of the LORD said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit to her." 10: The angel of the LORD also said to her, "I will so greatly multiply your descendants that they cannot be numbered for multitude." 11: And the angel of the LORD said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ish'mael; because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. 12: He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." 13: So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "Thou art a God of seeing"; for she said, "Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?" 14: Therefore the well was called Beer-la'hai-roi; it lies between Kadesh and Bered. 15: And Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ish'mael. 16: Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ish'mael to Abram. [/quote] [b]And after this God REALLY stirs the pot! He decides to give Sara a baby after all! That rascal! Oh yeah, in this chapter he invents circumcision... just for fun![/b] [quote]Genesis Chapter 17 1: When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2: And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3: Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4: "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5: No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6: I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. 7: And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8: And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9: And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10: This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11: You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12: He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13: both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14: Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant." 15: And God said to Abraham, "As for Sar'ai your wife, you shall not call her name Sar'ai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16: I will bless her, and moreover I will give you a son by her; I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall come from her." 17: Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said to himself, "Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" 18: And Abraham said to God, "O that Ish'mael might live in thy sight!" 19: God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20: As for Ish'mael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21: But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year." 22: When he had finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham. 23: Then Abraham took Ish'mael his son and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. 24: Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25: And Ish'mael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26: That very day Abraham and his son Ish'mael were circumcised; 27: and all the men of his house, those born in the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. [/quote] [b] Then God tells Abraham and Sara again that he's going to give them a child of their own. Even though Sara is past the child bearing age. God can do anything, right?[/b] [quote]Genesis Chapter 18 (excerpt) 9: They said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "She is in the tent." 10: The LORD said, "I will surely return to you in the spring, and Sarah your wife shall have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11: Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12: So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have grown old, and my husband is old, shall I have pleasure?" 13: The LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, and say, `Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?' 14: Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, in the spring, and Sarah shall have a son." [/quote] [b] Continued in Genesis Chapter 21... God does give them a son, Isaac, Then Sara decides HER son should be the one to inherit the family's name and wealth... so she convinces Abraham to kick Ishmael and his mom OUT into the desert! But God saves Ishmael... presumably to setup the conflict between the three great religions all of which trace their ancestry to Abraham. Mohammed (descended from Ishmael), and his followers which is the Islamic faith... Modern Israel which is descended from Isaac, and Christianity which is descended through David and Jesus... More or less a battle between families really! AND THE BITTERNESS begins![/b] [quote]Genesis Chapter 21 1: The LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did to Sarah as he had promised. 2: And Sarah conceived, and bore Abraham a son in his old age at the time of which God had spoken to him. 3: Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore him, Isaac. 4: And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. 5: Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. 6: And Sarah said, "God has made laughter for me; every one who hears will laugh over me." 7: And she said, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would suckle children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age." 8: And the child grew, and was weaned; and Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9: But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, playing with her son Isaac. 10: So she said to Abraham, "Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac." 11: And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. 12: But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. 13: And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." 14: So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. 15: When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes. 16: Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, "Let me not look upon the death of the child." And as she sat over against him, the child lifted up his voice and wept. 17: And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18: Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation." 19: Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink. 20: And God was with the lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. 21: He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt. [/quote] [b]If you're going to understand the roots of all this hatred. Look no further than this "soap opera". God made this happen. He setup the hatred. He took the side of the Jews... But setup the Muslims to survive as well... THEN he sent Jesus... to stir the pot. AMEN![/b] Now lets bring the story up to date. After WWII the victorious western allies decided they had to do "something" to solve the "Jewish Problem". In a typical postwar imperialistic power play THEY decided to offer the remaining Jews a "homeland". When they looked around for a likely place, none suited them better than modern day Israel. The Jews identified with this land, the allies didn't need it for anything, and the only people who would be "dis-enfranchised" would be a bunch of "Palestinians" who were not in any position to complain or fight them. So they created Israel, (the Israelis see this as "giving them back" Israel... since they believe they have a "longer" claim to it anyway), and booted out much of the Palestinian population that lived there. In order to make their decision "stick" they also provided military support and financial aid the new Jewish state. This "protective" stance exists till today. The remaining western allies will NEVER allow Israel to be destroyed. Period. The Israelis have proven to be terrific fighters for their territory and have withstood the worst possible tactical situation imaginable. To be totally surrounded by ALL OF YOUR ENEMIES, EACH WHO HAS SWORN TO DESTROY YOU! They have made mistakes, sure... but at the same time, it's not generally mistreated the Arabs who live inside its borders. Somewhere around 40 to 60% of Israel's population is Arab. Arabs in Israel generally have better, freer lives as Israeli citizens than they would in ANY of the neighboring Arab states. They can practice their religion freely, work, be elected to government, and participate in all aspects of Israeli society except the military. Also, Israel has no stated policy to destroy its Arab neighbors... unlike their Arab neighbors! So the Palestinians do have real gripes with the WWII Western Allies, (of which we are the remaining “Superduperpower”), and they basically HATE Israel, (for both historical AND modern reasons), but the Arab states haven’t exactly helped things with their actions either. For example, couldn’t they have set aside some of THEIR land for a Palestinian state? And anyway, back to my original point, GOD made all this happen. So if we really want to see this problem resolved… we better ask HIM for help! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] * Sorry for such a “historical” post. guitplayer This message has been edited by guitplayer on 10-20-2001 at 12:25 AM

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[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]Based on what I know about all of this I can't find any reason in bombing Afghanistan at this time...that doesn't mean I'm a coward or that I wouldn't fight for what I love...it just means I don't see War as the answer. [/b][/quote] Steve, Steve, Steve... So if you don't believe bombing Afghanistan and eradicating the AL Queda is the answer, pray tell...what do you suggest??? These folks only purpose in life is to slice your throat as fast as possible, then continue to make life miserable for your family.... Hypothetically, let's just say the US changes everything about their ways of operating in foreign lands, changes everything to conform to the way Bin Laden, or the AL Queda, or whoever is pissed as us....we conform to the way they would prefer we'd be... Know what??? It wouldn't change anything.....we are still non-Islamic infidels... I don't buy that if we eliminate Bin Laden, there will be 1000 more Bin Laden's to deal with....that's bullshit....there won't be if the US and the world at large is committed to preventing these people from operating.... I find it hilarious also that the "Fred Flinstone of Afghanistan" is in essence, a priviledged millionaire and despises the US for its wealth and prosperity..... This message has been edited by captain54 on 10-20-2001 at 01:48 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b]There's a show on TLC *right now* called "Behind the Terror - Understanding the Enermy"...it's gives a good glimpse into why the US is so hated in the middle east. Excellent Show. This message has been edited by rold on 10-19-2001 at 11:01 PM [/b][/quote] Yeah, I was watching it. Basically it said that Bin Laden and the present terrorist groups were forged during the war with Russia, during which time the US supplied them arms. After the war, they wanted, and needed more help, which the US didn't supply. Former Mujahedin soldiers became outcasts. Bin Laden became more anti US, which was sealed when the US occupied Saudi Arabia (his home country) during the Persian Gulf War. He was pissed that the US was in Moslem holy places, and that "infidel" Arab governments were going along with the US. Funny, because Iraq was also an infidel government, not strong enough in the Islamic sense. So, Bin Laden thought he'd get on our case, despite our having provided the Mujahedin with arms and training. I took some of it that the US helped the Afghan freedom fighters, but that wasn't enough. They wanted more. So they got pissed at us. To which I say fuck 'em. Either way, we're damned in their eyes no matter what we do.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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[quote] posted by guitplayer: [b]Continued in Genesis Chapter 21... God does give them a son, Isaac, Then Sara decides HER son should be the one to inherit the family's name and wealth... so she convinces Abraham to kick Ishmael and his mom OUT into the desert! But God saves Ishmael... presumably to setup the conflict between the three great religions all of which trace their ancestry to Abraham. Mohammed (descended from Ishmael), and his followers which is the Islamic faith... Modern Israel which is descended from Isaac, and Christianity which is descended through David and Jesus... More or less a battle between families really! [/b][/quote] Thanks for the Biblical history. I had heard that the Arabs and Jews came from the same roots. Interesting, a centuries old family feud over land and inheritance. Actually I guess the whole human family could be traced to the same ancestry if you go back far enough. I've noticed on a small scale that even with use of written wills families still often end up fighting for years over who gets what. I wonder is it just human nature to be greedy ?
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[quote] I disagree. These "Terrorists" have absolutly NO reason or justification behind ANYTHING that they have done or will do. We're talking about a bunch of well funded, extremist scumbags who are cleverly trying to thwart the opinions of many other not so priviliged people in various countries. I could care less how many thousands or millions of people rally against the US. Doesn't make their point any more valid. They are all dead wrong. I'm not referring to antiwar protesters here, I'm referring to those clearly anti-Us protests in support of Binladen. Millions of brainwashed people supported the Nazis. Where they right ? I support the US actions %100. These vicious attacks have been going on for many years now. It's just a shame that it took something like the WTC, to finally get the US to act. alon [/quote] With all due respect (i.e. none) looks like you are the brainwashed one! I mean c'mon. US foreign policy has been atrocious. "I dont care how many disagree with us, they are all wrong". And you call THEM brainwashed!? Puh-leeeeze /Z /Z
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Don't quote me out of context ! I said "I could care less how many thousands or millions of people rally against the US. Doesn't make their point any more valid. They are all dead wrong. I'm not referring to antiwar protesters here, I'm referring to those clearly anti-Us protests in support of Binladen." This is in regards to morons around the world who support Bin Laden in any way shape or form. And yeah they're all DEAD wrong. I have no respect for people who support a Mass Murderer, period. Every country has skeletons in their closet, including the US. Hey, take a look at your own country (Sweden), and it's role in WW II. Sweden was supposedly "Nuetral", but ended up aiding the Nazis quite a bit . Despicable. Theres really no such thing as a neutral country. As far as me being brainwashed, I really doubt it. I live in a free country after all, and my thoughts are my own, and I consider myself pretty well read. I've criticized the US in the past for many things that I've disagreed with. In regards to the current military action. I'm behind the US %100. And judging from various Swedish Web Newspapers I've read, I'd say it's you who are slightly brainwashed. alon
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Too bad the U.S. can't go into isolationist "Fuck y'all" mode. "We won't help anyone, and we'll just figure out a way to support ourselves completely". I know it's impossible, but that's about how I feel these days.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Hi All; Thanks guitplayer for the fascinating post, historical, biblical and all. Anyway, I've heard many things in the last months from peace activists, anti-war types of positions. I think we're so fortunate to live in a country where everyone gets their moment to contribute a perspective. Freedom of speech and other freedoms as well. It's kind of heart-warming to me that not every single American is of the same mindset about this issue, this Bin Laden trauma. We are a nation with a heart, a mind, and also a fist. That said, it really seems to me that our military action is going to accomplish the necessary. Right from the get-go, I've believed that we're not over there for retribution. The goal is to end or significantly reduce terrorism. What our military intends to achieve and how they intend to go about it have been made clear, and those who know about war and the history of that area have concluded that it is within the realm of do-ability. So, I say yes, definitely, to "peace". Because the U.S. and its allies are going to achieve it. Let's continue to tolerate and respect those whose opinions differ from our own. There is value in that.
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October 2001: Taliban Supreme Leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar: "The situation where we are now, there are two things: either death or victory. To those who are fighting and bombarding us, they should understand the Afghan man is a fighter willing to die for jihad." June 1944: General George S. Patton: "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."

GY

 

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What really burns me is that it took such a horrific event to get us to go beyond our poll driven, half assed, politically calculated, ineffective, measured responses. This guy had openly declared war on civilians, executed several attacks that killed many folks and we just did our dance with world opinion. So how many people had to die in any one event for us to get serious? What if ONLY 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 people died on the 11th and the towers were still standing? Probably we'd be shruggin this off like a pesky mosquito. So whats the majic number of people that had to die? At least now we know its under 5000 - especially if we have live video - that makes a big difference you know. On the positive side, now that we have crossed the threshold, it is really satisfying to see and feel the unity - despite the 5% fringe factor. I just hope the media gives the 5% the weight they deserve. Did folks notice that the day or so after the event CNN was quoting Madonna on some bit about violence begetting violence. Oh pleeeese. She cant play guitar, doesnt really write her stuff, uses auto tune extensively on her vocals and knows NOTHING about the dynamics of world events. So why in the world would CNN give her drivel any air time at all? Lets at least have enough perspective to keep pop ikons like Madonna and the BS Boys out of our debate regarding how best to protect our nation from twisted serpents that would kill us all. Have a nice day.

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>> So how many people had to die in any one event for us to get serious? What if ONLY 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 people died on the 11th and the towers were still standing? Probably we'd be shruggin this off like a pesky mosquito.>> Well, in fact, this HAS happened. The U.S.S. Cole, the embassy bombings... You're right. It took a huge catastrophe to wake people up out of their malaise. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows
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[quote]So if you don't believe bombing Afghanistan and eradicating the AL Queda is the answer,[/quote] Bombing Afghanistan is [b]not necessarily equal to[/b] eradicating the Al Queda. Two different things, yes they're related, but they are separate objectives. Killing poor Afghanis protecting their way of life is not the same as taking out Al Queda, Al Queda is an international organization, kill their money, catch/kill their leaders and/or bring them to international trial for their crimes against humanity. Then you can effect the country through humanitarian, some specialized military, and financial methods to better the living conditions there...maybe even get rid of the Taliban. [b]Bring most of our soldiers back home to protect our citizens, allow American farmers to grow male Hemp plants and process them for fuels, plastics, electricity, food, clothing, etc. Create independence for our country from Oil and other crucial imports.[/b] [b]AND[/b] improve our foreign policy around to world to not just benefit the 1% of the people who control the world's wealth. Just some ideas for starters if you're really looking for solutions. I believe this with all my heart, WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER. Peace, Steve This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 10-20-2001 at 04:12 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by PeeTee: [b]Looks like you Yankees bit off more then you can chew...or spew. Are you ready to die from anthrax, little girl?[/b][/quote] You are from Canada? Your troops are being deployed there as well. Many Canadians died on the 11th in those towers. This isn't a Yankee problem, it is a global problem. I can't tell you how offensive I find the tone of your comment. Tj This message has been edited by tomjonesmusic on 10-20-2001 at 05:40 PM
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I am canadian and I agree that that "bit off more then you can chew" comment is a bit harsh, they are after all risking their lifes agenset a procieved threat. that is admerable, that you are willing to go to such great lenghts to protect your fellow man(what ever that may be). but I must say that in canada the war is not suported as it is in the US. correct, that our military is inolved, and our PM suports it, but the genral public, I would guess is maybe 65-75 % in support at best. what I find amazing is the we are right because its our view mentality. they are says "why do they let there women get educated.... why is the goverment not a religous tool....." about us. we are as backwards to them as they are to us. through this whole thing I have only heard one voise of reason.....I can't remeber his name, but he was a close personal friend and confidant of his holyness the dali-lama(sorry bout the spelling). WAR IS NEVER GOOD!!!!!!!!! NO NOT EVER !!!! EVER,!!!!! GET IT!!!!!! It is becoming appent to me that every generation has to have a good war or two, this may be evolution .... humans can never become any greater then we are because the would as a whole will never unite. I am think of this as a historical event... in 15 years when my kids come home from school am I going to be proud of what my country did....No my counrty will(partly) be responsible for the deaths of meny meny people, I only hope that with our good foriegn aid programs and humanitain efforts the world will forgive our great mistakes. just my thoughs...
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[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] Bombing Afghanistan is [b]not necessarily equal to[/b] eradicating the Al Queda. Two different things, yes they're related, but they are separate objectives. Killing poor Afghanis protecting their way of life is not the same as taking out Al Queda, Al Queda is an international organization, kill their money, catch/kill their leaders and/or bring them to international trial for their crimes against humanity. Then you can effect the country through humanitarian, some specialized military, and financial methods to better the living conditions there...maybe even get rid of the Taliban.[/B][/quote] Steve, I'm not sure if we're watching the same "war". If the US wanted to focus on: "Killing poor Afghanis protecting their way of life" as you put it, we could do so easily. We have complete air superiority, and have the firepower to wipeout just about everyone. I don't think there is any reason to believe what we're doing is anything approaching this. Just the opposite. Sure, there have been a few misguided bombs and some collateral damage. This is inevitable in ANY war. But overall, the US has been VERY vigilant in trying to focus on military targets. Even if the goal to reduce civilian casualties is only to hold down the "anti-American" feelings in the rest of the Muslim world, we've clearly not mounted the type of attack that could be considered mass-destruction against the Afghan people. We also gave the Taliban plenty of time to save thier own skins. All they had to do was to turn over Bin Laden, allow the destruction and inspection of the terrorist camps, and turn over the other terrorist leaders. If they had done this, ironically it would have been virtually impossible for the US to attack them and keep international opinion on its side. But THEY CHOSE not to do it. "UNWISELY", to quote George W., now they're living with the consequences. BTW, do you think the average Afghan shares the Taliban's view regarding their "way of life", or is fighting to protect it? The Taliban's intensely fundamentalist point of view (which is not at all shared by the vast majority of Muslim nations), was not put in place by "popular acclaim", but instead forced at the barrel of a gun. Even in the Communist controlled days, in the Afghan cities no one was beaten or shot because of the length of their beard. Women could live without fear of being beaten or shot for wanting to go to school, work, or moving around without a male escort. The burka was not a mandatory garb. The Taliban have created this "way of life" through fear of death. My point is that when a "new government" is put in place to supplant the Taliban, I bet few Afghans will be upset. Ironically, we're hearing that the US supports a "balanced" government representing the variety of ethnic voices within Afghanistan... even including "moderate" Taliban representatives... I think that's pretty commendable under the circumstances. Throughout history, if there were nations that held the type of economic and military power we now have, they would seek to own and control any country that it wanted. But we DON'T. Look, war is horrible, it is to be avoided, it is the FAILURE of diplomacy, it is unfair, it is tragic, it should not be entered into without careful consideration of all other options. Innocent people are going to die, and our own soldiers are going to give up their lives. BUT, sometimes you HAVE to do it. Pacifism is a fine ideal. But in a practical sense, it almost always fails. If the Western Allies had not stood up to Hitler, we'd all be under his power today. This is UNACCEPTABLE. No matter if we attacked the terrorists, or we did nothing and let them off the hook... we would be subject to additional terrorist actions. The ONLY way to have a chance to stop their actions is to take aggressive action against them. The ONLY way. Aggressive financial, political, defensive, and military action is being taken. It's sad. But we didn't start this fight. They did. Will our military actions lead to more terrorist attacks? Probably. Will there be children who will be taught that the US was unjustified by its actions? Certainly. Would there be additional attacks if we did little or nothing? Of course. Would there be children who would be taught that the US is weak and they should grow up join the attackers? Certainly. Either way, we're gonna get more attacks and more hating kids. Our ONLY chance in a place like Afghanistan is to remove the Taliban, try to set up a government that allows a chance for hope for the Afghan people,and then stick with them. Only after a generation or two where we've been a "help" will we be able to counter the bigotry and hatred that exists now. Change the government, establish and support human rights, create economic hope and education, and wait for the old haters to die off. I can't imagine anything else giving us a chance. Can you? guitplayer

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[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Too bad the U.S. can't go into isolationist "Fuck y'all" mode. "...we'll just figure out a way to support ourselves completely". I know it's impossible, but that's about how I feel these days.[/b][/quote] EXACTLY. And therein lies the problem. "black gold" is USA's crack habit, and until we figure that one out, we NEED the middle east.
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[quote]Originally posted by whosmatt: [b] EXACTLY. And therein lies the problem. "black gold" is USA's crack habit, and until we figure that one out, we NEED the middle east. [/b][/quote] The thing is all the knowledge and solutions are out there, and it can be done nationally with very little help needed from abroad. It would take at MOST 15-20 years to set up the infrastructure, and bingo! - no more need for oil. The only thing standing in the way is protectionism...eliminate that and it's a done deal. This message has been edited by rold on 10-20-2001 at 10:32 PM
meh
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I have to kick myself for even STARTING to get involved in this conversation, but here goes. So I'm an idiot. Guitplayer, Thanks for the historical past, but I'm afraid that your version only goes back 6005 years, and the conflicts in that region according to the Muslims goes back much further than that. In other words, as long as you hold that Bible in your hand and use it to even start to figure out what the problem is you continue to have a line drawn between them and your ability to understand. First put that book down and THEN try to see what's going on. Remember that they have a book as well that not only completely disagrees with yours in almost every way, but it is in a separate mindset and a separate language. It's kind of like you negotiating a peace contract with.......rain. Not only is it not going to help you at all to keep speaking English, but you're going to have to re-assess your definition of "negotiating" altogether. My wife is not known for great one-liners, but she said something on September 11 that has not left my mind. She said "Is it just me, or is 'Israel' about the dumbest idea of the 20th century". Hmm. Perhaps we should be blaming Great Britain. It was all their idea to start with! OK, now on to my point: Did any of you see the movie "The Patriot" staring Mel Gibson? Remember the premise of that movie was that they were fighting the revolutionary war with the Brits? OK, remember that Mel and his "militia" were using "unconventional" war tactics such as jumping out of trees, killing officers (mercy me!), fighting battles where there was no preset battlefield, and using devious tactics to get an upperhand. And remember that Lord Cornwallis kept complaining about "how am I supposed to fight a war with people who don't follow the rules of war"? I think he may have even called the militia "terrorists" at one point in the movie for having killed several officers in a surprise attack. Eventually because they continued to march through fields in red trenchcoats all in a row and the militia continued to disturb the redcoats notions of "war" the US won and Lord Cornwallis retreated. "Rules of war". Hmmm. So here's how I see it. We've gotten accustomed to a way to fight a war - tanks, bombs, airplanes, yadda yadda. The Al Qai'da network has declared war on us, and are smart enough to recognize that they're not going to have much luck if they meet us in open fields with trenchcoats on. So they're breaking what we perceive to be the "rules of war" but we're all just people, and it's not like our "rules of war" really matter to them. Why should they? So I'm thinking that we need to readjust how we fight wars if we plan on getting anywhere. We also need to recognize that THEY started the war with US, and there must be a reason why! And it doesn't sound to me like the reason why has much to do with us infiltrating their society. I'm thinking it's more about our troops in Saudi Arabia, but that's just me. Anyway, sorry about the blasphemy of associating our "patriots" with their "terrorists". I just happen to see some parallels. Perhaps others do as well. Nika.
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Ah, ok. Sorry if I misunderstood your writing there, if you were specifically targeting Osama supporters. [quote] Hey, take a look at your own country (Sweden), and it's role in WW II. Sweden was supposedly "Nuetral", but ended up aiding the Nazis quite a bit . Despicable. Theres really no such thing as a neutral country[/quote] True indeed. Neutrality is in the Swedish constitution, and right now its a big noise here about the speed in which our prime minister *supported* the US in the bombings, since supporting it can't really be labled as "neutral" can it? But I guess they were chickening to GWB's "if you aint with us yer against us" [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] /Z
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Hey, no problem at all Master Zap ! We all can get a little edgy sometimes when talking about certain issues. BTW - Sweden is a great country. I once lived in Gothenburg for half a year. Excellent city, great party scene, and those girls ! Ahhh ! Sist jeg var i Sverige var et halvt år siden, faktisk på svinesund for å kjøpe røyk ! Unnskyld hvis jeg kan mer norsk enn svensk. Ha det Bra alon
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[quote]Originally posted by Alon: [b] and those girls ! Ahhh ! Sist jeg var i Sverige var et halvt år siden, faktisk på svinesund for å kjøpe røyk ! Unnskyld hvis jeg kan mer norsk enn svensk. Ha det Bra alon[/b][/quote] C'mon dude, first you talk about 'those girls' and you make me very curious, and then comes some abacadabra [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] You owe me an explanation [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] (try spell check on it) [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
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[quote]Originally posted by PeeTee: [b]Looks like you Yankees bit off more then you can chew...or spew. Are you ready to die from anthrax, little girl?[/b][/quote] I'm not usually this blunt...but FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE. If the terrorists take out the CN Tower we'll see how you feel. Thinking further on this post...it almost sounds as if you could BE a terrorist or certainly at least a terrorist sympathizer. This would be the tone I would expect from one of them...not a peace activist's tone, but a taunting tone, looking to pick a fight. Well, you've got one...and I reiterate...FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE. This message has been edited by Tedster on 10-21-2001 at 11:26 AM
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