wades_keys Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I know people say Wakeman lacks feel - but this really moves me, especially the piano part at the beginning. Rick Wakeman Solo What do all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Feel is in the ear of the beholder really. It says as much about the listener's taste as it does about the performer being evaluated. I don't particularly find that early moment to be full of feeling. That may says something about me. But I love the opening of "Morning has Broken" which is Wakeman playing in the same style. In this solo, I love how it takes off with the rapid runs on the D50. He seems to be enjoying those moments and so does the audience. When he comes out of that and hits the piano and string pad thing, you can sense him pulling the emotion out of that simple gesture. Wakeman is musical to many of us. Despite his detractors. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skykeys Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Tusker says it well: feel is in the ear of the be"hear"er. Okay, I took a liberty there I have been a Wakeman fan, and a Keith Emerson fan for a long time, but I must say that my tastes have changed somewhat as I've gotten older. I used to think, the faster one played, the better. "So and so is faster than so and so" kind of thing. I no longer feel that way. I do like Wakeman's playing here, but I appreciate it from a technical standpoint. He's doing a "look how fast I can play" thing, and that's okay. I wish I could play that fast. That kind of keyboard gymnastics certainly has its place. But it doesn't have the depth of feeling of other pieces he's played. He could also be trying to prove that he can play as fast as Keith Emerson. I don't know. But, either way, Keith Emerson is the best and fastest mechanical (piano technique) player in this genre, and possibly of most genres, IMHO. Of the big three (ELP, YES and Genesis) keyboard players, I like Tony Banks the best, because he is very melodic. I like and respect all of them a great deal, but I prefer Tony Bank's style. It's sweet and flowing, and accessible to my ears, and in proper context of the overall feeling of the song; again, IMHO. Regards. Samick baby grand; Yamaha S90-ES; Ensoniq E-prime; bongos; tambourine; djimbe http://www.mindseyeviewband.com/MindsEyeView/MEV.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mú Carvalho Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I respect him, becouse of what he did n the past, wiht "Yes" and first solo albums, and when he came to Brasil for a big concert at Maracanã stadium, I was there, of corse, he was the man, with so many keyboards. But now, sorry, seems like Richard Clayderman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Hey Tom, given our discussion in the other thread, what do you think of this video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: Hey Tom, given our discussion in the other thread, what do you think of this video? cnegrad, I've always liked Rike Wakeman's music. To be honest, there's a lot I can learn from him *and* Jordan. You're not asking for a comparison with Joe, are ya? "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Not at all. But in your usual diplomatic style, you've sidestepped my question. What do you think of THIS video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: Not at all. But in your usual diplomatic style, you've sidestepped my question. What do you think of THIS video? I think it's great. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 While both can certainly play fast, I never got speed as their redeeming qualities. For both, creativity is a FAR more important component of their genius; it just so happens that each occasionally requires some digital dexterity to perform that which they have created. But so it is with all the greats throughout history. And it's why the "feel vs ability" argument is bogus; those who don't have the ability to occasionally play fast on their instrument lack an entire range of expressive ability. As both Emerson and Wakeman amply demonstrate, ability does NOT diminish feel; rather, it enhances feel. Originally posted by skykeys: He could also be trying to prove that he can play as fast as Keith Emerson. I don't know. But, either way, Keith Emerson is the best and fastest mechanical (piano technique) player in this genre, and possibly of most genres, IMHO. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yannis D Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 IMHO his music has roots. It's still "pyrotechnical" but it's rooted in some tradition in one way or another, that's why it makes sense to my ears (plus he's making a mistake on 5'02" ). BTW, the era when thousands of people were screaming after a... keyboard solo seems amazing to me! I don't like progressive, but i have to admit that this era was a time of experimentation and open hearts and minds to new sounds/perspectives, something that's not happening any more. And if there is something to blame for this, i would say that's the punk movement in England (democtratization of music in a way) Yannis Be grateful for what you've got - a Nord, a laptop and two hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by yannis D: And if there is something to blame for this, i would say that's the punk movement in England (democtratization of music in a way) Oh? And what does "democratization" of something actually mean? The word seems to be thrown around a lot these days but it sounds like a misnomer to me... or at least... misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yannis D Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 It means, in this case, that music performance is (was) free to all people, even the un-educated ones. No need to be a virtuoso any more Remember The Clash - hardly they knew anything about music, but they wrote far more memorable songs than most of the progressive guys Be grateful for what you've got - a Nord, a laptop and two hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Is anybody aware of the fact that Rick had a very successful comedy hour on British TV for a couple of years....I hear he does Stand-Up also! He said he had to pull himself away from it and get back to doing more serious projects! Skykeys... I like Tony Banks work also! Thoughtful player...contemplative! I've seen Wakeman many times live with Yes as a kid in the 70's....he's a great great player... His definitative solo on Roundabout ....I don't think anyone can say that lacks feel. . . .though it was on Hammond B3 lb CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Legatoboy: Is anybody aware of the fact that Rick had a very successful comedy hour on British TV for a couple of years....I hear he does Stand-Up also! He's videly know in the UK as a TV comic, wich is kind of a shame I think. Anyway, Wakeman is very self-contained in his own style. You have to accept (or reject) the whole package. When he was 20 or just a bit older, he found himself playing for crowds of thousands, and being spotted as the keyboard hero/virtuoso; it's only natural that he grew a showy, flashy style. Personally, I find his compositional style a bit limited, but I can only admire the precision and energy with which he performs those pieces. His single-trilling technique is awesome, kind of like Billy Cobham does single-strike rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wades_keys Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 His single-trilling technique is awesome, kind of like Billy Cobham does single-strike rolls. Yes it is and it is faster than anything I have heard Emerson do. (Note I'm not saying BETTER - just FASTER). Too bad Jordan doesn't have a "Morning Has Broken" type of piece in his repertoire (or does he?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skykeys Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I had never replaced my old YES and ELP vinyl albums with CDs. (I do have a few Genesis CDs though). Just never got around to it, and as I had mentioned previously, my tastes had changed a bit so that I didn't feel as compelled to do it. But now, after this conversation has gotten me thinking about those great old records, I may just have to pick up at least one old one from each. Ah, the good old days. Regards. Samick baby grand; Yamaha S90-ES; Ensoniq E-prime; bongos; tambourine; djimbe http://www.mindseyeviewband.com/MindsEyeView/MEV.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DafDuc Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I used to gripe about Wakeman's lack of feel, but after 20+ years in the world of midi quantization, I gotta take it back. He does have feel, it's just not to my taste so much. Wish I had his chops though. I played in an 8 piece horn band. We would often get bored. So...three words: "Tower of Polka." - Calumet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by DafDuc: I used to gripe about Wakeman's lack of feel, but after 20+ years in the world of midi quantization, I gotta take it back. He does have feel, it's just not to my taste so much. Wish I had his chops though. Quantization does not prevent "feel," though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Landrum Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Legatoboy: Is anybody aware of the fact that Rick had a very successful comedy hour on British TV for a couple of years....I hear he does Stand-Up also!Holy Cow! Really?! Any of that out on YouTube? Darren Landrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Landrum Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Rick on Banzai! Darren Landrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by yannis D: Remember The Clash - hardly they knew anything about music, but they wrote far more memorable songs than most of the progressive guys I beg to differ. I'll take Cinema Show, Firth Of Fifth, Dance On A Volcano, Roundabout, All Good People, etc, over Should I Stay Or Should I Go, anytime. What we record in life, echoes in eternity. MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 From Wikipidia: 'Rick can currently be seen as a contributor on BBC2's series, Grumpy Old Men. He has also appeared in a number of episodes of Countdown; about twenty per year, according to Wakeman. He currently (2006) presents a weekly programme on Planet Rock. Rick appeared as himself in "Journey to the Centre of Rick Wakeman", the last episode of season 2 of Mitch Benn's Crimes Against Music, a BBC Radio 4 comedy programme. The episode detailed a fictional war between England and Wales in 2009 which only Rick could stop. The majority of the episode was set inside Rick where Mitch and his team are sent to rouse him from a coma and thus stop the war.' lb CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Same kind a playing like Jordan. Intro was boring for me and nothing special. Later on some live technique practice etc Totally not impressed, but I can understand for young keyboardist it can be something. Need for speed goes away with age and experience. ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: Quantization does not prevent "feel," though... If a computer is moving notes and events based note values and a grid, where is the feel in that? Might make it sound right which feels better but certainly not the same thing you get when listening to a musician get into their zone. But you are right, quantization does not prevent feel, when you turn it OFF. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wades_keys Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 Totally not impressed, but I can understand for young keyboardist it can be something.I'm not saying this isn't true for SOME people, but I'm hardly young so it's not true for me. And I'm not looking at this piece necessarily as a "jaw dropping" moment - yes, once upon a time (about 20 years ago maybe) razzle-dazzle technique would impress me. But even then I was not MOVED by it. Just impressed. I think the similarity to "Morning Has Broken" has made the connection for me - when I was a kid in the 70's that was one of my fave tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarPlayerFL Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by yannis D: Remember The Clash - hardly they knew anything about music, but they wrote far more memorable songs than most of the progressive guys http://www.bagophily.com/images/barfsmiley.gif For a moment, I thought you were serious! I remember them for having 0 talent. The Prog guys have nothing to worry about. A Jazz/Chord Melody Master-my former instructor www.robertconti.com (FKA GuitarPlayerSoCal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wades_keys Posted December 2, 2006 Author Share Posted December 2, 2006 I think the performance could have been better - the feel I'm speaking of is the melody itself. He seems to play the 1st section a little ahead of the tempo for example. And yeah, I heard 2 minor flubs - not bad notes but slight misses. But he has also manages to play with dynamics in an arena setting... But when I play the melody in my head, its beautiful. I'd love to have a MIDI of it to play with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Originally posted by ProfD: Originally posted by soundscape: Quantization does not prevent "feel," though... If a computer is moving notes and events based note values and a grid, where is the feel in that? Might make it sound right which feels better but certainly not the same thing you get when listening to a musician get into their zone. But you are right, quantization does not prevent feel, when you turn it OFF. Velocity. Aftertouch. Syncopation. Tension/resolution. "Feel" of different chords, e.g., Major 6th chords have a different feel to Major 7th chords. ...etc. (I'm not saying quantization should always be used, just that it doesn't prevent "feel.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Feel is in the ear of the beholder really. My thoughts exactly. Does it matter what's going through the mind of the performer? To me it doesn't. I find it more accurate to speak about the dynamic contrast of the performance, the articulation, the rhythmic playing ... etc. I can't measure emotion of the performer ... I don't even try. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Originally posted by Tusker: Feel is in the ear of the beholder really. Hmm... I can guarantee that no-one is "relaxed" when listening to 140bpm aerobics music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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