Light My Fire - Key

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

Don't try to compare their work to anything out of the genre. That's senseless.

Agreed 100%.

 

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

What difference does it make if their music is repetitous or simplistic? None.

None at all. The only thing that matters in the end with music is "is the magic there?" That and, if you want a hit, can everyone remember the chorus so they can sing it in the shower.

 

Sometimes, I think people forget music is supposed to be, you know, fun and stuff.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

People Are Strange

I much prefer that to 'Light my Fire.'

[King Julien]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

 

I have a theory as to why certain groups are popular - it's because their music is so simple that all the 'garage' bands can easily relate to the bands in question. They can easily figure out the music and copy it themselves ... not too much work involved. (I'll take Blood Sweat and Tears any day over the Doors.)

Absolutely right Dave - even though it took me quite a bit of work to figure out the whole lead break in Light My Fire (I wouldn't really say it took blood sweat and tears though - perhaps I'm just a better transcriber than you ). I must admit I transcribed it in Abm, not realising the original key was actually Am.

 

Really makes you sound like a musical snob, though. Some of my favourite songs are a lot simpler than my Doors repertoire.

 

John

[delirium]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Back from a job and I managed to play the entire evening without playing a tune by the Doors.

 

.... they come off as musical geniuses.

Dick Cavette once made the comment .... setting your sights low ... and missing. If you think the Doors are geniuses, you need to get out more. Their music is very simple and repetitious ... and very simple and repetitious ... and simple.

 

I have a theory as to why certain groups are popular - it's because their music is so simple that all the 'garage' bands can easily relate to the bands in question. They can easily figure out the music and copy it themselves ... not too much work involved. (I'll take Blood Sweat and Tears any day over the Doors.)

 

Will someone here please do an analysis of Light My Fire and report back. This should be interesting.

saying the doors were geniuses is just funny...

 

they did few nice little tunes, but they always sounded to me like a wedding band...

[Dave Horne]

musical snob? I think it's important to discriminate. Some music has more worth than other music.

 

There's a line in The Tenth Man, a play by Paddy Chayefsky, where a character, a rabbi I believe, says something to the effect that someone who likes all kinds of music, likes none. If everything has the same value, it has no value.

 

Well, some music is just better crafted than other music; some music is just harmonically richer than other music, some music might just have better lyrics than other music .... and so on.

 

I only mentioned Blood Sweat and Tears since they came from that same general period. Why couldn't my son have taken a liking to that music? I'm guessing BST's music was probably too sophisticated for my son's taste.

 

If all this makes me a snob, then I'm a snob.

[Trill]

I never really liked the Doors (I'm bieng nice), but I will give Ray his props.I wish I had his left hand

 

Personally,I never understood the Doors , but then again there was a lot of music going down in that era that was well ....bad .. or lame may be a better word in todays terms. Must have been the drugs But as Gas accurately stated "its only rock and roll"

 

 

 

Dave ,there is nothing wrong with liking what you like. I can certainly apprecite BS&Ts music for its quality ,composition ,sound and innovation,now and for years to come.

There is a lot of music that won't pass that test.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

 

If all this makes me a snob, then I'm a snob.

Trying to dictate what music others should enjoy based on your preferences is arrogant, without a doubt.

 

Comparing Blood Sweat and Tears with The Doors is akin to making a comparison of Debussy with Hank Williams. It simply makes no sense.

 

When you write that "Some music has more worth than other music.", you're dismissing the musical preferences of everyone but yourself.

 

Sorry, but I just don't agree with your position on this.

 

Tom

[retrokeys]

All right I confess it. I was a major Doors fan in the 60's. My first major rock show was a Doors concert on a Halloween night in 1969. I had second row seats. I spent my high school years trying to look and sound like Ray Manzarek. Whew..now that that is off my chest I have to say that yes...today Morrison's poetry sounds overwrought and..dare I say it..pretentious. And maybe they weren't the best players out there but Jeez.. consider the times please. In a era that produced Bobby Sherman, the Monkees and commercialized hippie-dip "Chocolate Overcoat" named bands spreading tie dyed good vibes around, it was daring and unique to explore chaos and disorder. How may bands of that era could reference Berthold Brecht, classical music, chicago blues and Artur Rimbaud all at the same time? That, and nobody before or since has sounded like that. If nothing else give credit to the Doors for being the first art rock or, if you will, prog group. They haven't held up well, perhaps. Over-rated? Perhaps not.

[mate stubb]

At last a sane post on the issue.

[Dave Horne]

Do you judge a piece of music based solely on its intrinsic musical content or do you impose lower ... or higher standards for certain kinds of music?

 

If I state that some music has more worth than other music, I can give you specific reasons why. Does that make me a snob ... or just a guy who can back up his views with some content.

[Billdar]

Well, I found the Door's music to be inspirational back in the 1960's. This is because I COULD PLAY IT because it was so simple.

 

I was similarly inspired, for the same reason, by Dave Brubeck's "Take Five", which was the first song (excluding the more complex bridge) that I ever "played by ear".

 

Then along came Herbie Hancock's "Watermelon Man", and again, for the same reason, I was inspired.

 

So to me, this simple music is great music! Thank you, Ray, Dave, and Herbie!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

If I state that some music has more worth than other music, I can give you specific reasons why. Does that make me a snob ... or just a guy who can back up his views with some content.

No Dave. Your opinions as to the why you think that some music has more worth than other music are all subjective.

 

In reality,the values that seem worthwhile to you certainly may not be the same for others.

 

Unfortunately, your opinion is that if Dave Horne does not deem a piece of music (or genre) musically worthwhile, then it certainly should have no value for those who may hold different life experiences.

 

If you can honestly produce objective reasoning why Rock and Roll, as a musical genre, is less than worthwhile - and millions of people are thus foolish to enjoy it - please do. I'm certain that many of us here who grew up with, and continue to enjoy listening to and performing this music, would like to hear the facts.

 

Tom

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Do you judge a piece of music based solely on its intrinsic musical content or do you impose lower ... or higher standards for certain kinds of music?

Do you rate a book based on its Flesch-Kincaid 'grade'? (e.g., shown in 'readability statistics' if you run the Grammar check in Microsoft Word.)

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

If I state that some music has more worth than other music, I can give you specific reasons why. Does that make me a snob ... or just a guy who can back up his views with some content.

If the reasons make sense, then it makes you a snob but that's a good thing. It makes me an extreme snob, since I have very high standards.

 

If they're along the lines of the above, 'musical readbility statistics,' then I suppose it makes you a snob of sorts... but perhaps a misguided snob?

[Dave Horne]

Unfortunately, your opinion is that if Dave Horne does not deem a piece of music (or genre) musically worthwhile, then it certainly should have no value for those who may hold different life experiences.

I didn't realize we were talking life experiences, I was talking about the intrinsic value of music.

 

If we have to color all of our opinions based on our life experiences then everything is subjective. Everything is a masterpiece in that case. The character in that play might have been onto something.

[linwood]

I always liked that tune. I wasn't a huge Doors fan, but Light My Fire, I dug it. I even bought it by Stevie Wonder and by Jose Feliciano. Jose's take on it was my favorite. Soulful cat.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

If we have to color all of our opinions based on our life experiences then everything is subjective. Everything is a masterpiece in that case. The character in that play might have been onto something.

I agree with this, but... what are the objective factors?

[Billdar]

The older I get, the more I realize that all opinions, be it about music, digital keyboards, or someone's personal attributes (like snobbishness, or lack thereof), are SUBJECTIVE!

 

And I might add that my opinion stated in the above paragraph is itself subjective.

 

While I often agree with other's opinions, I don't necessarily consider that a firmly validating process.

 

Again, this is just my subjective opinion.

 

Sometimes it feels that going through life is like walking through a fog...........

 

By the way, I enjoy all of Tom's (Is There Gas in the Car's), and Dave Horne's posts. They both add much to my enjoyment of participating in this forum.

 

Yeah I know, this is just my opinion!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Dave Horne]

I agree with this, but... what are the objective factors?

Can you explain to another musician what good and bad voice leading is, or what good or bad harmonic progressions are? Can you give examples? I'll leave the lyrics to those who deal with words.

 

Writing counterpoint (in even just two voices) can be a humbling experience. It really sharpens your ears ... and you become more sensitive to what bad counterpoint is. Our ears have become jaded - everything sounds good, even the bad stuff.

 

The better guys seem to have a good working command of these tools ... and it very often is reflected in their music.

 

A good teacher, one solidly versed in many aspects of our craft, can help educate his students to be a bit more discerning, critical ... and god forbid, discriminating.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Billdar:

The older I get, the more I realize that all opinions, be it about music, digital keyboards, or someone's personal attributes (like snobbishness, or lack thereof), are SUBJECTIVE!

Not exactly... there are many parameters of the human perception system which everyone has (excluding extreme cases--for example, some people see colours when they listen to music--synesthesia.)

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Multistability.jpg

 

Do you see the right hand image as vase or faces? It simultaneously shows how the human perception system works in a consistent way--while showing that you can see the same thing in a different way. (This is sometimes the cause of disagreements, because each person is looking at something differently.)

 

There are many parameters which *are* universal--second harmonic "distortion" sounds "nice" to all.

 

This is why one can write down the "rules of the common practice period" (and no, I'm not suggesting they're set in stone by any means... but I would suggest, they do "work.")

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I agree with this, but... what are the objective factors?

Can you explain to another musician what good and bad voice leading is, or what good or bad harmonic progressions are? Can you give examples? I'll leave the lyrics to those whose field deals with words.

Of course, absolutely. That's why some songs "work" and others don't. But it's also why you can write a reasonable song with a very simple progression... and a really crushingly bad one with more complex harmony.

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

The better guys seem to have a good working command of these tools ... and it very often is reflected in their music.

I can think of at least one song that has very simple basic harmony and very narrow vocal range, not because the songwriters/arrangers/musicians (i.e., "producers") couldn't do anything more complex, but because they were working with a singer who was, er, not the best. However, that same track has various other parts (such as an ostinato that runs throughout the song) which add tension and interest... there are many factors (does the music develop, does it "breathe," does the arrangement have clarity and space but becomes "full on" as necessary, good part writing) which really demonstrate quality.

 

Anyway, the #1 factor is a good main melody which, if you hope to sell records in volume, someone can remember and sing in the shower.

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Our ears have become jaded - everything sounds good, even the bad stuff.

I never listen to the radio. Most stuff (of whatever genre) sounds terrible to me.

[Billdar]

Originally posted by soundscape:

Originally posted by Billdar:

The older I get, the more I realize that all opinions, be it about music, digital keyboards, or someone's personal attributes (like snobbishness, or lack thereof), are SUBJECTIVE!

Not exactly... there are many parameters of the human perception system which everyone has (excluding extreme cases--for example, some people see colours when they listen to music--synesthesia.)

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Multistability.jpg

 

Do you see the right hand image as vase or faces? It simultaneously shows how the human perception system works in a consistent way--while showing that you can see the same thing in a different way. (This is sometimes the cause of disagreements, because each person is looking at something differently.)

 

There are many parameters which *are* universal--second harmonic "distortion" sounds "nice" to all.

 

This is why one can write down the "rules of the common practice period" (and no, I'm not suggesting they're set in stone by any means... but I would suggest, they do "work.")

Can one then assume that the "popularity" of some music is evidence of one of those "universal consensus" types of perception?

 

Like, what most people "hear" as "good music" becomes the most popular music. So then what that consensus reflects is "truth" as in "red lipstick is red" because most of us see it that way?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[gangsu]

Originally posted by linwood:

Jose's take on it was my favorite. Soulful cat.

Feliciano for me is 1972, Tenerife. I still wonder if it was really him. Light My Fire, staring into the mouth of a volcano, one too many banana daquiris.

 

Might've been a night to remember. If only I could remember!

[linwood]

Yea, Sue.....might not have been the same vibe sitting there listening to some humbling two part counterpoint.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Might've been a night to remember. If only I could remember!

Ahhhh, the Seventies.

 

Sue, remind me to tell you the story of a party that I was giving at my apartment the summer of '75 for the musicians & dancers who were coworkers at a theme park. A strange bunch indeed. Well, Matt saw the blender from across the room and decided that we all should try his recipe for a banana daquiri. Unfortunatly, his recipe included the peel.

 

I knew that those brownies someone brought were going to catch up with us before the party was over.

 

Needless to say, we had to throw out the banana daquiri and make another batch... this time without the peel.

 

Dave, believe it or not I must agree that I did love Blood Sweat and Tears. And I also bought Al Kooper's solo album, I Stand Alone. I loved BS&T's horns, the organ sounds, and the arrangements.

 

But I do think that it's just not right to say that folks should dismiss a certain genre of music because of its simplicity. Where would that put Country music and 3-chord Blues? And for many of us, the music we like, we like because it touches our soul. We don't have to ask ourselves why we like it. We just do.

 

Is it simplistic? Sure. Can you dance to it? Well, I'll give it an eight and 1/2, Dick (Clark).

 

And that's my point. Many people, if not most, decide whether they like music based on how it makes them feel, not whether it's well-written within a musical context. What makes a song a hit? I'm certain that there would be many more millionaires if musicians and producers knew this with absolute authority.

 

It's good. Music is cool.

 

I just returned from hearing my daughter play viola in her Chamber Music group. It really made my day.

 

Thanks for the invigorating discussion.

 

Tom

[jook]

http://imaclanni.blogspot.com/blog/trolls.jpg

[ProfD]

Music is cool. Keep in mind that it is merely....organized noise.

 

Folks' musical tastes change over time. The rock & roller or hip-hopper today might be a jazz buff 20 years from now.

 

The power of music is that it connects people to a certain point in their lives.

 

It is an exercise in futility to dismiss any genre of music or tune regardless of how simple or complex.

 

Why?

 

Because in order to be criticized, it must first be recognized. Regardless, the music appeals to someone.

 

Some of you may have children listening to some sh*t you cannot stand.

 

Remember when your parents felt the same way about your music?

 

It comes full circle. Those who listen to music long enough eventually aspire to a higher aesthetic--maybe.

 

While today, it might be jazz chord changes, altered scale solos or filter sweeps and pads, whenever "Light My Fire" or "Whip It" comes on the radio, for a few minutes, you are transported back to a certain place and time.

 

I still don't like beets. Who cares?

[delirium]

Originally posted by ProfD:

Music is cool. Keep in mind that it is merely....organized noise.

very true, if only people would like to be also cool

that we'd live in perfect harmony

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

And that's my point. Many people, if not most, decide whether they like music based on how it makes them feel, not whether it's well-written within a musical context. What makes a song a hit? I'm certain that there would be many more millionaires if musicians and producers knew this with absolute authority.

That's 'cause too many people in the music business don't know what they're doing... and particularly today can't create great songs on a consistent basis. Good songwriters can write hits on a consistent basis... a least for a time anyway. (If they don't turn out to be hits, at least they sound like one... and fail in the market for other reasons.) It's like being able to run the 4 minute mile or 100m in 10 seconds... not everyone will reach that and maintain that level. Those who lack craft and/or talent can sporadically write them... those who have craft down can write a hit in 15 minutes.

 

On some blog I read recently, the author went over an interview with a songwriter who said they used a certain progression on a lot of choruses... so they then said they could strum those chords, so what was the skill of that songwriter...? They too could write the hits!

 

Needless to say... they are out of their mind...

 

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

I just returned from hearing my daughter play viola in her Chamber Music group. It really made my day

[soundscape]

Originally posted by ProfD:

Folks' musical tastes change over time. The rock & roller or hip-hopper today might be a jazz buff 20 years from now.

Actually I still like the same kind of music I liked at the age of 5-10. I mean, it isn't necessarily the same style, but really at its core, it's much the same thing. At that age, you just like what sounds good to you... rather than whatever's cool according to your peers as more severely happens in your teens... or being contaminated by "schooled musician" notions of "good and sophisticated music."

 

FWIW, I think a good "complexity sweet spot" for music that "everyone likes" is somewhere here...

 

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/c/carole_king/only_love_is_real_crd.htm

 

Besides, why shut yourself off to simple pleasures? I'll watch a character-driven independent movie... but I always enjoyed watching a kick-ass action movie... and I still do. "Speed" was on TV the other day... it's utter nonsense, of course, but it's a really well executed and "orchestrated" movie of its kind that doesn't pretend to be anything else... and I enjoyed watching it again. (Conversely, I found the "Matrix" sequels to be utter nonsense with no redeeming features.. and I won't be watching them again.)

[Ed Coury]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

[QB]I think it's important to discriminate. Some music has more worth than other music.

ouch!