S90ES vs Kurz PC2

[6 cents]

I've only had an S90ES a few days but have used a K2500 for a number of years. Both sound very good. I did a side-by-side comparison of piano patches last night through a PA and a good set of headphones and preferred the S90ES though they were closer than what I would have expected - especially through the PA. The K2500 has been a very good keyboard and generally has very good sounds. I'm glad, and lucky, to own both.

[niacin]

Originally posted by Prague:

Originally posted by Mark Schmieder:

The PC2 series is one of the most confusing systems to use that I have ever tried (aside from some of Ensoniq's supposedly user-friendly rack gear). I don't bother, but eventually will. It is so intimidating and such a black hole of time at this point that I am focusing on other stuff. The manual is full of errors, and trying to set up and save a keyboard split performance apparantly requires a PhD in quantum physics.

Amazing how different people can be.

 

Ensoniq has always been renowned for intuitiveness and the PC-2 is very intuitive. Kurzweil manuals are also well-known as very well written. Ensoniq manuals are great, too.

 

Oh, well.

I also find the comments bewildering. The only rack synth Ensoniq produced was the MrRack and it's a total doddle to use. The Kurz PC2 has comprehensive midi control options but also has a very well written manual. Yamaha, on the other hand, are generally recognized as having designed a series of user interfaces that are at best described as idiosyncratic. The integration of expansion boards is limited and the set-up overcomplicated, not to mention their sequencers, or sampler file structure. I have an RS7000. File structure ported over from a bloody arranger keyboard. WTF? I also have a Kurz PC2 rack and an Ensoniq MRrack. My RS7000 has just been replaced by an EMU PX-7 and Roland FantomXr (for the sampling) and will soon be on Ebay. YMMV.

[jimmymio]

Originally posted by learjeff:

keep the keyboard, I'll take the girl.

 

Biggest limitation of S90ES compared to PC2x is the Yamaha doesn't have a serious hammond sim. I understand the PC2x does, though I haven't heard it myself.

 

Gotta agree with this. As much as i rave about the S90ES, the organ sounds are it's Achille's heel Always make me crings a bit.

JP

[Moon Zero Two]

From my perspective the B3 samples in the Motif ES are fine - it's the Leslie sim that is awful.

[Moon Zero Two]

The PC2 is one of the easiest instruments I have ever used.

 

I had a Motif ES 7 for a while - even after watching the three DVD's on how to use it I still had trouble navigating around it. To be fair the Motif had a lot more features - but imho the user interface was pretty weak.

[Legatoboy]

ANALOGMAN,

 

"(yahoo group) there seem to be a lot of quality control problems." ( Nord Stage 76)

 

LB here..!

 

I had probably the first Nord Stage 88 in the NY

Tristate area last year....$3000 is alot of moo-ha to me!

 

Right out of the box the LCD went dead within 2 min. then intermittant for as long as I had it.

 

After putting it gently in a road case, handling it with kid gloves to gig test, playing the gig(w/intermittent LCD).... I picked it up off my stand after the gig and Wala - a Red $3000 Swedish RainStick.

 

All sorts of fittings were beading around inside. I said that's it! I returned it to GC!

 

I know they are a nice ax but Caveat Emptor

 

lb

[analogman1]

Hey Legato,

That's exactly what I'm speaking about! I used to own an Electro; liked it a lot but sold it, couldn't connect with the keyboard feel. I still have my Korg CX-3; so I'm set as far as Hammond sounds go. I sometimes miss the Electro, (I thought it was made pretty well) and that's the reason I was hoping the Stage would be "the answer". Oh well...the saga continues...

[Legatoboy]

Ronl,

 

"To be fair the Motif had a lot more features - but imho the user interface was pretty weak"

 

I don't like Yamaha's interface designs either, they really need to work on that! Their products overall are very good these days though but the I/O thinge is behind the curve imho.

 

The scrolling patche menu's are ok but the effects routing and things of that nature deeper into the instrument are alittle too IBM like for my taste and in my other life I'm a systems analyst.

 

YAMAHA ARE YOU LISTENING! "USER" Interface not

"MACHINE" Interface, thats something else!

 

lb

[Legatoboy]

Big T,

 

The Electro was a much simpler than the Stage series. But I tell you the Stage 88 Keyboard, I've never felt anything like that just in terms of how it was made. It felt like a 1954 P Bass Neck. Don't know how it would be to play for extended periods though it was alittle stiff...

I think that's similiar to the Electro vibe thing your talking about (stiffness)! It was mfg-ing marvel to me though.

 

The all in one Quest? I gave it up! I like to double anyway and have gotten pretty adept at it!

 

lb

[Legatoboy]

Big T,

 

Sorry, I'm in work....

 

"much simpler than the Stage series"

 

I ment:

 

"much simpler DESIGN than the Stage series"

 

lb

[mate stubb]

I'm loving my Stage 76. It continues to work perfectly and the action is a dream. Ignoring the fact that organ and piano actions are in opposition, it is as good an all-in-one solution as I could ask for. It doesn't do the rompler thing, but I don't care either.

 

Legatoboy, it sure sounds like you got a lemon. The thing with modern electronics is that they either fail right at the beginning of their life, or they work reliably for many years. Not sure what your problem with things rolling around inside was.

 

Mine is solid as a rock. Knock on real wood endblocks.

[C.J. Lewis]

analog - good luck on your quest. From a guy who's played and owned both, I can tell you that the piano sample in the S90ES would be worth it by itself, not to mention all the other sounds.

 

The PC2X-O is a much better MIDI controller, and as has been stated before - there are many people who prefer both boards.

 

I'd definitely say that the three that have been talked about in this thread are the top 3 (PC2X, S90ES, and Stage). Don't forget to check out the RD700 w/Complete Piano - also very, very nice. Ahhh, screw it. By all 4 of them.

[keyoctave]

Originally posted by analogman1:

Hi folks...

As I'm in the market for a new "all in one" axe, these 2 seem comparably priced; and the 76 note size "reduction" is a plus for me, on the Kurz.

Any thoughts?

I've played the Yamaha many times and like its sound.

Haven't tried a Kurz in a *long* time.

OK then...

Since you have a CX3, the organ sounds may not be as important, but if you truly want an 'all in one' then I would suggest you look at the PC2. It's 76 note semi-weighted action is a good compromise for organ and piano type playing. Install both ROM cards and you will be good to go.

 

I say this because of the experience I had running the raw organ sounds (in KB3 mode, with effects off)) from my PC2X into my MS KBR-3D. I was blown away with how good they sound along with the full scale of sound paramater adjustments one could make to the organ sounds. Playing organ on a weighted action is a big NO so I ended up with a V5 (controlled by my other keyboard) but, if I had the PC2 version, I would have stayed with that. I even made a box with a switch that gave me stereo outs for the keyboard sounds and a mono out for the organ.

 

If organ (and other meat and potato sounds) are a big part in your playing, then the PC2 as an 'all in one' would do well. If you need more synthy sounds then the S90ES does a better job out of the box. I also have to say that after playing the Yamaha (an ES8), I was very impressed with the piano sounds as well (IMHO).

[Mark Schmieder]

The Ensoniq MR-Rack that I got off eBay had to be sent back to the seller after I practically went crazy after two weeks of not getting anything to work. Buggiest thing I've ever owned. So I don't know how easy they are to use when they aren't broken. It was one of those sellers who says "it powers on and blinks". They gave me my money back.

 

The Ensoniq rack that I was referring to was their first workstation rack, for the first workstation synth (yes, they came before the Korg M1). I'm not going to take the time to look up the model number. It's a moot point as it is of no interest to the original poster.

 

As for the PC2 series, the screen is tiny and unworkable for deep feature stufff or even the lighter stuff like keyboard splits for live performance setup. I love the PC2 series for its sounds, but someone is going to have to explain to me how it is easy. I have the early version of the manual, with a much improved PDF on my computer but I haven't spent the money to get it printed yet. SO maybe you're going after the later rewrite of the manual, which was significant (a complete rewrite, pretty much). By the time I got ahold of that though, I had already lost a weekend making no progress with the original manual.

 

It isn't fair to compare to the Motif, which I will agree is very difficult to learn. The S90 ES doesn't have a sequencer or a sampler, as far as I can recall. Setting up performances and basic effects is trivial. If you want to get fancy and change effects routing or select specialised algorithms, it is not. At that point, a buyer hopefully knows whether this is how they're going to use the synth or not. Otherwise, the deeper features of a synth are not the main decision points for most people, but rather the everyday use of setting up splits, layers, combining voice libraries (I still haven't figured out how to do this on the PC2 so only use its presets and the expansion boards), etc.

[Moon Zero Two]

there are a couple of tutorials that you can go through in half an hour that show you how to create splits and layers and such - the PC2 is very easy IMHO to use as a midi controller.

[Finale]

Mark, here\'s a link for the "PC2 made easy" tutorials in 984 pages.

 

Just kidding about the amount of pages. It's a real link. You can also download that stuff for future reference if you didn't get the accompanying CD with your PC2.

[Mark Schmieder]

"This document is intended for use with the PC2 and PC2X keyboard models. Although the PC2 rack is very similar, there are some differences with the keyboard version. A separate version for the PC2R is not yet available."

 

It's probably best not to take this too literally. It looks like the split/layer stuff is PROBABLY relevant to the rack, and not too hard from a conceptual point of view.

 

My issue is menus, and trying to keep a train of thought when hopping around so much or scrolling so much just to do a simple task. On the Motif series (even the rack -- though don't get me started on how hard Performance Mode is on that vs. the keyboard versions), because the screen is way bigger, one rarely has to go more than one or two menu levels deep.

 

The other problem is that, to my knowledge, Kurzweil has no editors. Yamaha does, and it makes a HUGE difference. In fact, I am close to the point of refusing to spend any time with anything other than presets on a synth that doesn't have an editor. Especially when one considers how far along soft synths have come. There's just no going back, and there has to be such a compelling reason to choose a synth that takes such effort and is so indirect in its editing.

 

For me, the PC2 is compelling for its sounds. But not for anything else. Well, maybe for KB3 mode. It's nice when one is currently without a Virtual Tonewheel Organ to have nine sliders that behave as expected. Of course the rack version doesn't have that, but it supports it, so when the CME VX8 finally makes it to the street with its nine motorised faders that can be set to Organ Drawbar Mode, there's a good match for the PC2r rack.

 

BTW, the last time I checked that tutorial page that you referenced, none of the links worked for me -- at least on my Mac at home. I'm at work now so tried it from Firefox. I did get all kinds of cookie warnings, but otherwise got actual content when I clicked on the links. That was not the case before, from Safari or IE on Mac OS X 10.4.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Mark Schmieder:

The other problem is that, to my knowledge, Kurzweil has no editors.

CLONK HERE FOR PC2 EDITOR

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks for the link -- I'll download it later when I get home. Hopefully it is cross-platform.

 

It pays to remember that nothing is static on the web. I bought my PC2x (and later PC2r) while Kurzweil was at the lowest of their low. During that period, the SonikMatter link was put to rest.

 

Glad to see the support is back for this beast!

[Moon Zero Two]

err when was sonikmatter put to rest?

[Mark Schmieder]

Not SonikMatter per se, but the Kurzweil support at SonikMatter. There was a note at the time, but no indication that there were plans to revive it. My understanding was that Kurzweil funded their part of the site, so maybe once their buyout got finalised they could afford to get it going again.

 

The internet history project (snapshots of the entire internet on a daily basis for a searchable archive) isn't in action yet as far as I know, so there's no way to verify the up/down dates.

 

The main point is that the internet is very dynamic. If a first time user sees a dead or non-working site, they don't necessarily think to go back later as they tend to assume it's a stale link or a no-longer supported site. And that was the mistaken assumption that I made.

 

I've had several other sites revive lately that either were down for awhile (most notably harmony-central's keyboard and synth reviews subsection, and the Vintage Synth Explorer website). If those had been my first visits, I might never have tried those links again. But luckily I had been using those sites for some time, so had no reason to think they were dead.