Respect Herbie always - but isnt this Sh!t??

[ewall08530]

Well I've had Herbie's latest CD for months now and if you cant get some musical enjoyment out of his pairing with Christina Aquilera on Song For You or When Love Comes To Town with Joss Stone and Johnny Lang....

 

There are a couple of cuts on this that dont do it for me but for the most part it's great and I think it will expose him to perhaps a younger audience that otherwise would never have known who realized what a truly great artist he is.

My 2cents Ewall

[DafDuc]

Annie Lenox's Hush Hush Hush makes me cry. I don't care if Herbie doesn't shred on it. And I second the props for Song for You and When Love Comes to Town. Some excellent moments on that album.

[Steve Nathan]

Okay, this thread is ridiculous.

Agreed.

 

Perhaps it's time to take a breath.

These are opinions we're exchanging, nothing more, nothing less.

I get it. Herbie is God.

Well, God had a bad day. Relax.

Steve Nathan

[musicalaccents]

Originally posted by Bridog6996:

Plus, controller or not, I have a hard time taking anyone seriously when they're holding a keytar.

 

When performing, I prefer to stand up because I feel more in tune with the music. I've seen more keyboardist sitting down then standing...that aggrivates me more than anything. What does this have to do with the Keytar thread? Well, as most of you have come to realize...keyboadist aren't the most reveered musician in the band. If at best, in a 5 piece band, we are most likely 5th on the list (in this order: vocals, guitar, bass or drums, the keyboards). The Keytar allows the keyboardist to have some fun on stage. yeah, some people make it look cheezy. However, if done right, then it can be unique and exciting. If I'm off my rocker on this, then please explain to me why the Keytar is so bad in certain situations...

[DafDuc]

I wanna know what Dick Ward thinks. I could totally picture him with a keytar.

 

But this is a Herbie thread, so he probably won't darken it...

[bourniplus]

For those who are "defending" Herbie: let's be honest, if you had heard this clip without knowing it was Herbie playing, what would you have thought about the music?

 

...

[musicalaccents]

Bourniplus-- Half of this debate is over his new CD "Possibilities" and that he "sold out" or something like that. As far as his playing, yeah not his best, but I still liked his improv. kinda clanky patch but still innovating improv- just my opinion.

[Billdar]

Originally posted by bourniplus:

For those who are "defending" Herbie: let's be honest, if you had heard this clip without knowing it was Herbie playing, what would you have thought about the music?

 

...

I would have thought that the guy playing the keytar was WAY beyond improvising over a simple I-IV chord progression.......like REALLY TIRED of it, and was trying different stuff.

 

You know, I think this WAS happening!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[cheezeejazz]

I'm gonna slip in with my replies to you guys posts if thats ok.....

 

I fully accept Herbie is one of the broadest players there is, he's had acclaim for loads of different styles and over a long period time so thats all cool.

 

I also don't mind him not shredding all over his new album - I much prefer to hear the taseful laid back vibe rather than innappropriate jazz noodlings that may have come from a less experienced player...however my question was:

 

How can he go from being an artist who played ALL the keyboards , produced, arranged and wrote the tracks on his earlier stuff, to being someone who can just put his name on an album for playing piano and arranging a couple of the traks.

 

I just can't comprehend how why he'd want to give up so much of his creativity to someone else, I could understand co-working but just to leave his baby in the arms of someone else? Strange - no?

 

AS for the video I posted, I completely agree that if we didn't know it was herbie then we would mostly have fobbed it off as just not very good.

 

This doesn't go to say that this doesn't work for some people, but I pride myself on respecting music I don't even like and other peoples approaches, but I can't hekp but think he was being weird for weird's sake in that vid.!

 

Ah well...back to sit on my fence

 

Pete

[David Loving]

The CD: I was surprised when I heard it all. I bought one at a Starbucks. I'd say Herbie has a cameo role here. Maybe not among his 10 best efforts. Can't blame him for making a buck, and he can play the piano with his feet and smoke me. Then I looked at the Video and had to edit: I liked it- man those phrases and scales Herbie was throwing at Bill were really something. The trading 4's was cool. Maybe that stuff was a little outside for some of you but I thought the video really swings hard- I like it. I could have picked that out of a blindfold test as Herbie. Maybe the critics ought to listen to it a little harder. They need some "cool" time.

[Michelle ggurl]

OK, I just had a chance to watch/listen to the video. My comments for what they are worth:

 

* Overall: There is nothing wrong with Herbie's performance here! As mentioned previously, this appears to be a video from the 80s. Skinny ties, DX7s, "keytar" controllers were all in fashion.

 

* Context: Aside from 80s context, let's look at this in "Headhunters" context. What I mean by this is, if I recall one of the critical acclaims of Herbie with his Headhunters project was that it broke somewhat new ground in the merging of jazz improv with funk styles. Someone correct me if I'm wrong; I turned onto Headhunters when a senior in high school, and it had been out for a decade and a half by then (originally in 1973 according to a quick Internet search). Nevertheless, I had a lot of fun playing Chameleon in bands. [edit: I am aware Miles did this first ... interesting comment I read an Amazon.com review of Headhunter, where the assertion was made that Miles tried something with mixed results, whereas Hancock succeeded.]

 

* Solo "merit": I don't think his playing sounds bad at all. There are a few things going on here that I hear (someone earlier asked us to venture on what Bill and Herb may have been "thinking" during the improv so this is my lazy stab at it):

 

-- he starts out "inside", emphasizing blues and pentatonic riffs, right? Then I hear what I think is whole tone and also altered scales (I say "think" because I'm not at a keyboard to figure this out, so this is just the overall sound and my impression of it without analyzing it at the keyboard). He's also throwing in a chromatic device where he takes a riff and plays it, as I like to say, as an "absolute" entity -- it starts out "inside" then he takes it "outside." Again, applying jazz sensibility to funk. I thought that was novel with Headhunters, at least one of its strengths in premise.

 

-- then there is the improvisational aspect. The way he's trading riffs with the sax is really quite cool. The "chords that sound like a 2-year-old" are taken out of context if you think of them as chords ... he's just riffing rhythmically on a couple chord notes and playing off what he and the sax are doing.

 

Well, that's my take. Obviously some of you don't like the Headhunters vibe, but I watch/listen to that and think, yeah that is indeed the Headhunters sound; if it wasn't Herbie, it was sure somebody copping his licks shamlessly! Maybe it wasn't his best performance, but you know what, I don't really feel I can judge what is his best; can you imagine meeting him after a gig and saying, "Mr. Hancock, I really dig your music, man. But tonight ... not one of your best." This isn't "Hancock worship" to say this, either. It's saying, he went somewhere with the improv, I caught the vibe of where he was going. I can forgive a clam here or there.

 

I for one have always dug Herbie's Headhunters stuff. My 02.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by musicalaccents:

Hell, because of this CD, Herbie played at the Grammies...

Herbie had played the Grammys before.

[musicalaccents]

Originally posted by kevank:

Originally posted by musicalaccents:

Hell, because of this CD, Herbie played at the Grammies...

Herbie had played the Grammys before.

I'm aware that he's played at the Grammies. I'm somewhat of a Herbie freak...meaning that I probably know his history more than any other musician. This comment "Herbie played at the Grammies" was to prove a point that his new CD provided that opportunity to promote the CD to the public....which in turn might turn more people onto Herbie, jazz,etc. That was the only reason I mentioned that...plus, it's just cool to see herbie on stage with pop stars.

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by Steve Nathan:

Okay, this thread is ridiculous.

Agreed.

 

Perhaps it's time to take a breath.

These are opinions we're exchanging, nothing more, nothing less.

I get it. Herbie is God.

Well, God had a bad day. Relax.

Steve Nathan

I'm with you man. That was bad... nice lines in some places but a terrible sound and the pitch bending technique is not that great. I don't think Herbie really mastered the synth like he did piano and rhodes. George Duke and Jan Hammer really were the true masters of remote keyboards.

 

I wish people wouldn't say things like "everything Herbie does is awesome" becuase it just means they can't really be rational about anything. Ever heard Lite Me Up? Terrible... or what about Bet Your Love...?

 

Lets have more honesty on this board gentlemen :-)

[Urbanaut]

hmmmmmmm................

 

 

I like Herbie.................

 

I even like Bill Evans (sax player)...............

 

Herbie and Bill sax and Keytar battle...............

 

I accept, even though the overall asthetic is stinky in my opinion........................

 

You know, when the whole band (almost) are wearing Hawaiian shirts, there is much left to be desired in the presentation...................

 

Very nice actual playing though. The interplay between Hebie and Bill was fun, and they got 'dem somes good ears....... I like to hear that.

 

Thats all......... Thank you.

[yabbadabbadoo]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

What exactly did you guys not like about what he was playing?

Nothing, HH playing what he did over the next piece the band did would reveal all

[RABid]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

... All Santana's die-hard fans want him to release another Welcome ...

 

You don't like "Welcome"? Yes, as a long time Santana fan I think it is one of his best, but I am not alone. A few years back there was a thread on SSS on the best unknown albums. "Welcome" was one of the most praised and highly mentioned releases.

 

I like HH, but this is just a bad release. It does not compare to Welcome. But every good artist has some less than spectacular work. It happens to everyone. I cannot think of anyone with more than 5 releases that peaks every time.

 

Robert

[DafDuc]

Welcome sold over a million copies - but to the wrong people. Most who bought it were expecting another Abraxas. Played it once, filed it away.

 

It is one of my favorite albums of all time. That in itself probably doomed it to obscurity.

 

BTW, speaking of Herbie - the Santana / Kidjou / Hancock collab is absolutely not a high point of the Possibilities album, despite it being three of my favorite musicians on the planet. That "main" lick is cheese city. IMO, of course.

[orangefunk]

Saying that, I think Herbies Headhunters 2006 gig in Japan was awesome... I love his live stuff atm... gotta hand it to the guy for live stuff... on record he seems to have suffered from record company filter syndrome...

[Jessica T]

I agree with Musicalaccents; honestly, I think, if used right, the keytar can be rather cool. If anything it's a chance for us to "step out of our little box" and run around like the guitar players do, or at least bring a bit of uniqueness to the picture I saw a local performer named Oxsana use hers very effectively, almost like a guitar during her performances. She would also park it and then sit down at her nice large keyboard as well.

 

Anyway, that's beside the point. I thought the Herbie video was alright. Ya' know, performers like to try out different situations and scenarios. It may not necessarily be our favorite, or even his, but for a little jaunt into a different context, it could be good for him. If nothing else, the public may respect him a bit more and thus get into some of his other stuff. Just my opinion.

[Bridog6996]

I guess it's just me then. When I see a keytar, no matter that the situation, all I can think of is Hammer pants and Flock of Seagulls haircuts.

 

Back to the whole Herbie thing. He's one of my favorite pianists of all time, and I respect the fact that he wants to explore different musical options. Fact is, though, some of the stuff he does isn't my cup of tea. Most of his stuff I like, and some of his stuff I really don't care for. I'm sure if Herbie himself were here, he'd be the first to say that if you cover the kind of ground that he does, you can't be all things to all people. It's as simple as that.

[Phred]

If he was doing that on a dx7 directly, I would still not like it...

 

I am not arguing his chops, just his note choice. I don't think he had a bad day - maybe a few clams; but nothing major. I believe that he intended to hit every single one of those notes and dischords. That is what I didn't like.

[Cliffk]

A couple of things:

One, the sound on that...um...thing doesn't exactly welcome you in;

Two, duetting on the fly like this can often end in 'ouch' clashes, which this one achieves only in spurts near the end;

Three, playing 'outside' (if you can, and Herbie can) is one of my favourite practice pastimes, and I seriously dig listening to someone do that artfully.

In any event, no matter who you are, live playing is fraught with potential difficulties - some nights, you're on; some you're not. Herbie's doin' just fine here, seems to me.

[Soultwist]

This is a discussion about taste. You can say you don´t like it or you don´t understand it. But you cant say it´s bad playing because its not. Contrary its quite adequate for playing in that idiom.

[Mixsynth]

I've seen more keyboardist sitting down then standing...that aggrivates me more than anything.

I started off standing up. I thought it made me more prominent. But I began to realise I was putting all my weight on my left foot (right foot on sustain), leading to pains after gigs.

 

When I started bringing my Rhodes to gigs it became more difficult because unlike with digital pedals, you can't move the mechanical Rhodes pedal any further towards you. So it made it even more difficult to balance.

 

Finally gave up standing when I got the expression and leslie switch pedals for the VK-8. Try standing up with one foot on the swell and the other on the leslie switch.

[David Loving]

ooops

[David Loving]

sorry for the multiple posts - please read on !

[David Loving]

clifk and soultwist are absolutely right, and they expressed my view much better than I did. This is about taste - what you like and don't like. There must not be as many jazzplayers here as I thought. I guess not everybody appreciates what was going on in the video. What HH and BE are doing on that video is an old -at least from bop on, especially from the '60's on - jazz convention. Herbie is a master at it. Not everybody appreciates it; witness the posts here. But a lot of us do, especially players who realize what is going on. This is something you won't hear on your smooth jazz station. That's why I said that some ought to listen harder. There is a strong atonal, "outside", convention, especially when players are trading 4's . They are just being hip. Stretch out! Just try running a whole tone scale sometime - you can play it over about anything. They'll think you are Donald Fagen.

[Phred]

clifk and soultwist are absolutely right, and they expressed my view much better than I did. This is about taste - what you like and don't like

I'll buy that. Likely what he is doing is quite technical, but I don't like it. I consider myself a jaz fan, but admit that I am not really a fan of music that goes outside... Don't like Miles' Bitches Brew for example...

[David Loving]

Well, I was raised up on Bitches Brew and such. A lot of academic jazz - lab bands and the like just love playing these kind of charts because they are inventive, explorational, hip, and interesting. What Herbie and Evans were doing was very technical. They were communicating, too. I'm just trying to have some of the less jazz oriented forumites consider that there is this kind of thing done well, and it's not sh!t - far from it. Heck, most 'smooth jazz' gives me the willienelsons!