Which digital organ sounds closest to the real thing?

[Mezzo]

I bought my Korg CX3 organ (old version) a few months ago, with a Leslie 900, and I'm quite happy with the sound this system produces. However, I'm curious about other similar products, which ones are closest to the real B3 sound.

 

I've tried the new CX3, and Hammond Suzuki XB1, and to my ears they sound a little more synthetic. But of course I need to confess that I'm just a rookie when it comes to organs, as my main instrument is piano and synths.

 

Any suggestions or views on this matter?

[Krakit]

I'll tell you this much. I prefer the sound of the vintage CX3 also, but I am dumbfounded by that fact.

 

Why is it that a 20 year old peice of gear is so much better than new cutting edge technology?

 

Why is it that the CX3 can be bought for under $800 (I paid $150 back in the day) and the new stuff is close to or over $2000?

 

The math doesn't add up right.

[Frosty_dup1]

Hi Mezzo,

 

There are three answers to this!

 

1. Listen to them all and use your own judgement. Everyone has a different "ideal Hammond sound" in their head.

2. Check out the B3 clone shootouts on the Keyboard Magazine pages.

3. Join the hamster mailing list (no, it's not about small furry creatures but it does occasionally discuss Gaffa tape)

 

Not having heard them all (but reading a lot of views from hamster) the consensus seems to be:

 

New CX3

XK-1

VOCE V5

VK7

 

I personally have a VK7 which I love to bits, however some people don't like the percussion (as it happens I never use the percussion so that might be why I am happy with it).

 

The Native Instruments B4 software is very highly rated, depends if you want it for the studio or for gigging.

 

The other consistant piece of info regarding "the sound" is that most of it comes from the Leslie (real or simulated). As you have a real leslie (although not one of the more desireable tube amp types) you are well ahead of the game.

 

Frosty

Canberra, Australia

[nursers]

Now people may laugh me off this forum, but for those of us on a limited budget, I found the 60's and 70's Roalnd Expansion card for its JV and XP synths has some good B3 and other organ sounds. I recently used one of em in combo with a Pro-Tools Leslie plug-in and was happy with the results. NOt the same as the real thing but not bad....

 

Also just wanted to introduce myself, I am from Australia (just south of Sydney), am a nurse in my everyday life, and do music when time permits. I have found this forum excellent for the time I've been lurking and hope the compilation is a great success (like others I'm hoping for a follow-up)

 

 

Dave (yes another Dave)

www.mp3.com/thirdstoreystory

[Gus Lozada]

You should try Native Instruments B4... and amplify it in glorious STEREO.

 

 

 

------------------

Gustavo G Lozada

 

Moderador de:

MusicPlayer.com/NuestroForo

"La voz en Español en Música y Tecnología"

 

GusTraX @yahoo.com

[Darcity]

Hey, I have a card, from Valhala I think, that I bought years ago for my Roland D-550 called SCREAMIN'B3 and the organ sounds are killer!! Before I sold my D-50 for the module, there was a way that you could play with the chorus rate on some of the sounds, using the joystick, and it simulated a gorgeous leslie slow/fast effect.

 

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Darrell

[b_3guy]

I own a B-3. Currently own a Hammond XK-2 & Native Instruments B4. In the past I've owned a old CX-3, & a Hammond XB-2. Before I bought my XK-2 I tried out a Roland VK-7. I've also played the new CX-3 in a music store. Here's my take:

 

The B4 is the best imitator although a bit weak on the upper end of the keyboard & its overall sound is a bit processed. Haven't played it through a Leslie.

The new CX-3 sounds really similar to the B4 but I haven't played it enough.

 

When I went from the old CX-3 to the XB-2. I did it for midi. The old CX-3 didn't have midi & I wanted to fire a module from the XB-2. I was pleasantly surprised that it did sound better. Anybody that thinks the old CX-3 sounds better than the current crop of emulators, either can't afford a new one or have some romantic idea that since its vintage, it's got to be better. It's not. A friend of mine just repaired a BX-3. The repair bill ended up being $700. The initial investment was $250. After it was fixed I played it. My first thought was why. The customer has all kinds of money. That could have been $950 towards a one of the newer emulators. It was thin & shrill. The action was good & there were 2 manuals. This is all the good I could say about it.

 

The XB-2, after having it for several years, was really getting to me. It was too shrill, had a harmonic beating that occurred when you played certain notes. So I had a big plan to chop my B-3 so I could take it to gigs. I had the electronic guy lined up to do it but the guy was that was to make the road case chickened out. All road cases that he makes have square corners. I, of course, needed a something a little more. The VK-7 was out at the time. It was very expensive because of the other sounds that were in it, although these sounds were crap. I took it for a test drive. Did a gig with it & had it at home for the week. The sound is very flat & sounds processed. The thing doesn't scream. On a B-3 as you go up the keyboard it sounds more trebly & consequently gets a little louder. The vibrato is really poor & the percussion sucks. If you are using it in a very straight way, pads, etc., it's fine. If you are using Leslie simulation, it records very well. Better than the XB-2 or XK-2. But both the Hammond boards have better percussion & vibrato than the VK-7. I took my money & bought the XK-2 & play it through my Leslie 145. If somebody said asked me to trade the XK-2 for the VK-7 I'd say no. It screams. The percussion & vibrato are way better. It's onboard Leslie is equal although doesn't record as well. It still has the harmonic beating that the XB-2 has but not as bad. The action/key style is better, although the VK-7 is very good.

 

The new CX-3 has the best sound. Leslie simulation is the best going. Action is better than the XK-2. But I can't get past the stupid lip on the keys. Why, why, why. It looks like some stupid marketing guys idea. That seem to be its only major flaw. That edge will hurt your hands. Very expensive. I think Korg will have to drop the price to sell alot of them.

 

The B4 is perfect except for a little process sounding & a touch thin on the high end of the keyboard. But what a CPU hawg. It seems to take up 25% or better of your CPU to run this puppy.

[Botch.]

B3Guy, thanks for the info! Sounds like you could do the next Keyboard shootout. I've been looking at the options, and I think you've convinced me to go with the Korg. Thanks again!

[coyote]

Agreed about the CX3 sound,Leslie sim, & action. I would imagine the lip exists because it allows Korg to cast the keys from already existing piano key molds. Funny how you NEVER hear pianists complaining about the lip even though they also occasionally perfrom smears http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

As for price, here's my take. Consider what you'd spend for a real good condition B3/C3/A100 w/ Leslie. Then consider the ruckus involved in getting those monsters to the gig (AND home again). Now balance that against tossing a 30lb synth in the back seat.... IMO Korg could easily add a 2nd manual and keep the price in the $3300 region - at which point I'd be sorely tempted to forego making a mortgage payment LOL

 

Originally posted by b_3guy:

The new CX-3 has the best sound. Leslie simulation is the best going. Action is better than the XK-2. But I can't get past the stupid lip on the keys. Why, why, why. It looks like some stupid marketing guys idea. That seem to be its only major flaw. That edge will hurt your hands. Very expensive. I think Korg will have to drop the price to sell alot of them.

[Tusker]

I love hammond sounds. I play them a lot. Unfortunately, most of the time, its off a Roland JV series rompler. I have done a bunch of tweaking to the sounds (overdrive and leslie parameters) and often use sounds other than organ tones in constructing patches. So I am not a purist about 'the sound.' But I am a purist about how the sound makes me feel.

 

The new CX3 and the B4 get my vote. Primarily the CX3, because of the drawbars, the location of the leslie switch (not authentic but reachable), etc. Anytime I am in a music store I spend more time on a CX3 than any of the new synths. To my ears it is very musical. I just can't justify the dough yet. I hope it comes down in price.

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

 

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www.tuskerfort.com

[Krakit]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

Anybody that thinks the old CX-3 sounds better than the current crop of emulators, either can't afford a new one or have some romantic idea that since its vintage, it's got to be better. It's not.

 

I'll defer to your account on this (because your relationship with Hammond is more intimate than my own), but I don't think that the reason I like the vintage CX3 over the new one is because I can't afford the latest or because I have some romanticized perception of my vintage one. I do find that the new CX3 comes off sounding very digital to my ears. Granted it could be the choice of amp that my local Sam Ash has chosen for this unit. Somehow though, when I do try the new organ emulators, I don't sense the organic-ness (no pun intended) of these units that I get from my 20 year old piece.

[Mezzo]

Originally posted by b_3guy:

Anybody that thinks the old CX-3 sounds better than the current crop of emulators, either can't afford a new one or have some romantic idea that since its vintage, it's got to be better. It's not.

 

Perhaps you're right. I can only refer to my single gig with the Hammon XB-1, where I struggled to get a respons to my demands. To my taste it missed the ability to express the screaming and "angry" sound of a real organ, in which I think my own CX-3 (old version) is able to do. Of course I was not very familiar with the XB-1 board at the time.

 

I also played the new CX-3 at one gig, but unfortunately without any Leslie speaker.

 

Thanks to all for your inputs!!

[rkipp]

I probably should have asked the same questions you did as I am going to be purchasing an organ simulator as well. Well, here's what I came up with:

 

Every time I visit a shop, I always go through whatever organs are there (to be honest, the stuff that I've read on this forum has helped in figuring out differences between them and what not, so thanks!), and from what I played, I decided that I could only get a CX-3 (the new one). I don't own a real Hammond, though I played one briefly, so exact to-the-nuance reproduction of the B3 sound was not a priority -- though I can tell the difference enough between a good simulation and crap -- but something about the CX-3, as someone mentioned eariler, kept bringing me back to it. The VK-7 feels too much like a synth, and I personally think the extra sounds they added are crap. If I wanted those sounds, I wouldn't be getting an organ. The Hammond ones were OK, but my own judgements combined with what you guys had said about them on this forum resulted in my leaning toward the Korg.

 

The clincher was that I went to a concert featuring Vital Information (Steve Smith of Journey on drums, Tom Coster on keyboards), and found out that for this particular gig, Tom's B3 was replaced by a Korg CX-3. On stage, I really couldn't tell the difference, and I don't think the rest of the audience could either. When I talked to him after the show, he marveled at its authenticity and said he probably would just cart this from gig to gig because of the accurate sound at 3/4 of the hassle of carting a real B3.

 

That settled it for me (I love Emerson, but I never really put any weight behind his endorsement b/c he obviously got it for free and has been a big Korg endorser for eons), so within two weeks I will have my CX-3!!

 

I hope this helps you some, best wishes.

[Dave Bryce]

That settled it for me (I love Emerson, but I never really put any weight behind his endorsement b/c he obviously got it for free and has been a big Korg endorser for eons)

 

Tom Coster has been a long time Korg endorsee just as long as Emo, hasn't he? Didn't Tom Coster Jr. just pose on the cover of Keyboard a few months back with a CX3 as well?

 

so within two weeks I will have my CX-3!!

 

The CX3 is a great board fer sure....I know a couple of people who've just bought 'em recently...they dig 'em to bits. I'm sure that you'll really enjoy it!

 

dB

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

That settled it for me (I love Emerson, but I never really put any weight behind his endorsement b/c he obviously got it for free and has been a big Korg endorser for eons)

 

Tom Coster has been a long time Korg endorsee just as long as Emo, hasn't he? Didn't Tom Coster Jr. just pose on the cover of Keyboard a few months back with a CX3 as well?

 

I never put any value in any endorsement, often these guys are endorsement sluts. One year endorsing one brand saying its the greatest thing since sliced bread, the next year endorsing the competitor's saying its the best thing since sliced bread. If the opportunities were presented to me, I don't think I'd be any different.

[Allan Speers]

I have to vote for the Voce V5 and Spin.

 

I used to own a B3 and 122. Now I own the Voce, the NI B4, and a client's VK7 is here at the moment.

 

Only the V5 gives me the sensual, organic feel that the real B3 used to. I run the V5 into a tube bass head, then post-tranny out into the spin. The B4 might come close if I could route it easily in the same way, but that would be tough. Plus, no drawbars.

[b_3guy]

Never had the pleasure of the Voce V-5 or the previous module. Played both the Micro B & B II. They were very good for their time. A comparison of the V-5 & the B4 through a 122 would be interesting!!!!

[ynot]

OK....here goes: In 1978, my first organ was a Hammond M3 that I ran through an MXR Phase 100. I was a teen and had no clue about Leslies (Damn!). After a few years I sold it and got into synths big time. Over the years, my love of that sound took over. 15 years ago I bought a CX3 for $400. Kept that for a long time through an SPX90 for added Leslie reality (AS IF!), which then was traded for a Korg Toneworks G4 Leslie Simulator. Eventually upgraded to a BX3 for the added keyboard, and found an old EV Dynacord CL222 Leslie Simulator (not bad). Then bought a 910 Leslie (2 piece MONSTER) that was loud and good, but shrill. Then bought a butchered C3 and ran that through the Leslie, but terminal frustration over the constant failure of that organ made me sell the combo. Eventually, I sold the BX3 and bought a Hammond Suzuki XMC1 with drawbar controller. Then I bought a VK7. Then I traded that and some $$$ for a real custom cutdown C3. Of all that mess, I still own the C3 and the XMC1....oh, and I just bought an old CX3 for $300, which I run through a custom tube preamp pedal for my 122 leslies! Now for the real meat...

 

 

These items sounded incrementally better than each predecessor. As standalone pieces, they all lack...seriously lack. But the added choral enhancement of the SPX90 rounded out the CX3 and made it fuller, but there are way better solutions.

 

The Dynacord is very cool, and I still own it. It's midi, has a full pallette of parameters to affect (rotor accelerations -upper and lower can have different speed increases- decelerations, rotor speeds, "mic placements", rotor balances, reverbs, overdrive. The Toneworks G4 is also very good, a guitarist type footpedal with many of the same abilities, but is non midi, and for something you step on as often as a leslie pedal, shouldnt be made of plastic, but that's a small complaint...it does sound cool.

 

The Hammond Suzuki XMC1 is basically an XK2 in a module with a drawbar controller. Its Leslie simulator is....lacking! Through the Dynacord it's listenable, but as anybody who's heard the difference can tell you, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A LESLIE....NONE....not even those Motion Sound thingz.

 

The VK7, in my humble opinion, is the best sounding standalone piece (which is why I bought it), even better than the new CX3, which sounds kind of thin and wheezy to me. But through a leslie, the Hammond XMC blows it away absolutely. Just to point this out: The VK7 when connected to a Leslie disables its effect section...which would be no big deal cuz you wont need the leslie simulator, but you might want the reverbs, and if you are a Jon Lord/Emerson fan, you DEFINITELY WOULD WANT THE RING MODULATOR TO WORK, which it wont.

 

So after all that financial manuevering and tone search, my final analysis is this: My cutdown C3 through a 122 Leslie is unbeatable (of course!). I got mine from Numerous Complaints Music in Atlanta after seeing it in the Keyboard Of The Month spotlight (its biggest selling point is its the size of a Fender Rhodes!) It's quite portable, but still a bear to deal with. I built ramps for it and the leslie to go in and out of my van, and built a tray with wheels for transporting the organ. I still use it quite a bit.

 

But if you are saving backache and stage space....the Hammond XMC module with a Leslie (that really is the meat of the sound) with a midi keyboard ( I prefer the Roland A70...great feeling semiweighted board makes the Hammond tone inspirational to play!)is truly the way to go.

 

If you can't take a leslie, then the VK7 is your bet.

 

....sorry to be so verbose!

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by ynot:

[bMy cutdown C3 through a 122 Leslie is unbeatable (of course!). I got mine from Numerous Complaints Music in Atlanta after seeing it in the Keyboard Of The Month spotlight (its biggest selling point is its the size of a Fender Rhodes!) It's quite portable, but still a bear to deal with. I built ramps for it and the leslie to go in and out of my van, and built a tray with wheels for transporting the organ. I still use it quite a bit.[/b]

Who did the cut down of the C-3?? A thing to add to your XMC/122 to improve the overall Hammond sound was is a tube preamp. I added a Tube MP to my XK-2/Leslie145. At first I thought it was my imagination, but really has made the sound more authentic.

 

 

This message has been edited by b_3guy on 06-28-2001 at 01:22 PM

[analogman1]

Hey there,

I use a Roland VK-7. I've checked out the new CX-3. It sounds pretty good, but the VK-7 is paid for....the thought of shelling out $2100 for something else is pretty depressing. I'm considering adding a tube preamp to warm up the sound..tha's my biggest gripe with teh VK-7. Hey B-3 guy, I've heard a lot of people talk about using the Tube MP. Maybe I'll get one too. Any other thoughts on Tube Preamps>>???

Tom

[b_3guy]

I really don't know much else. What does make sense is that it has to be a full range preamp. Leslie amps are a full range amp, so a guitar or bass preamp wouldn't be suitable because of missing frequencies. I know lots of other guys are going to jump in & say they've been driving Leslies with guitar amps since the sixties, but you do miss a lot of highs & some lows. So I would say any mic tube preamp would do. A guitar pedal won't work unless you want to sound like Jon Lord all the time. Its one thing to put a thin guitar or EP through one, but if you put a fat organ sound through it's automatic Deep Purple. You need suttle tube overdrive to work the best. The Tube MP is the cheapest & seems to do the job.

[joegerardi]

I gotta tell you, I've been screwing around with the NI B4 demo for the last 90 minutes, and I'm VERY impressed. The damn thing sounds really good.

 

I love the control panel where you can add the amount of Drive, Keyclick, and contour the Percussion.

 

I'm going to have to seriously think about that puppy. I don't gig anymore, so it could be perfect for me home setup.

[steadyb]

Originally posted by nursers:

Now people may laugh me off this forum, but for those of us on a limited budget, I found the 60's and 70's Roalnd Expansion card for its JV and XP synths has some good B3 and other organ sounds. I recently used one of em in combo with a Pro-Tools Leslie plug-in and was happy with the results. NOt the same as the real thing but not bad....

 

Dave (yes another Dave)

 

I'm not the biggest Roland fan in the world, but the 60's & 70's expansion board is great, and it's loaded with a ton of on the money presets. I bought a JV-1010 just so I could justify getting the 60's 70's board.

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

I love the control panel where you can add the amount of Drive, Keyclick, and contour the Percussion.

The percussion I can't get the deep doink out of it.The B's have a adjustment that will make the percussion ring for ever, not that that's what I want. But I wish you could get a bit more out of it. All the imatator's are like this.

[joegerardi]

Well, obviously I'm no expert with it, but I found that from the console, if I put the perc volume in the 3 o'clock position, and the decay at the 12 o'clock, and use the 3rd harmonic, it really sticks out. I'm starting to really love this thing!

[b_3guy]

Maybe I haven't had the volume really cranked but I have had both knobs turned up full. I'll have to do it again. Unfortunately I don't have the computer horsepower to run it & much else, so I've been ignoring it. One of the things that has been happening to me lately is the technology is getting in the way of making music. I got it without a manual, installed it, tried to get it working in DP (4hrs. last Thurs nite) & got it sort of working (2 hrs. Fri am). My window redraw gets really slow & I can run a couple of tracks audio & midi, but that's it . I sure I don't dare record something. But what an awesome piece of software. It will be interesting to see what Hammond & Roland do about their boards.

[joegerardi]

In all the reviews I read on it, they noted that computer horsepower factors a lot into its capabilities. I recently upgraded my tired, old P1 133 to an Athlon Thunderbird 950, and that makes the puppy really smoke.

 

The only problem I run into is that I am using the momboard's onboard sound card, which isn't great, and if I move the latency slider anywhere below 400 mS, I get static happening.

 

Just screwing around with the onboard songs, I've been able to get a really sweet Emo sound. After my QS7 gets here, I'm seriously gonna consider getting the full version. That in itself says something because I'm an anachronstic old bastard that likes to keep keyboards and PCs separate!

 

This message has been edited by joegerardi on 06-30-2001 at 01:25 PM