Rate the VA synths

[BP3]

I have a Nord 1 v2 and I've always liked a lot about it. I do wish that it had variable filter tracking. That's the main problem with it for me.

 

The Waldorf MicroQ is a good choice for the bucks.

 

Nothing is going to replace my old MiniMoog though. The Creamware (Pulsar) Mini emulations are really good. The Model E outright sucks as a Mini, although it's not a bad synth.

 

I can't wait to hear new Creamware synth. I seems to have promise.

[RABid]

Nord Modular Rack. It could sound a bit better but the fun factor is of the scale.

 

Robert

[R_dup1]

I won't rehash all the things that have already been mentioned about the specifics, so I'll just give some quick sound comments which are totally my opinion and may vary from those of others.

 

AN1X - is just a lot of fun to play and has some of the best analog emulation going. Love those super lows.

 

Nord Lead 3 - I really like the NL3. I love the graphic UI with the LED's around the knobs so you know where you are and what you're doing. I've been able to coax warm, thick sounds from it, but I have no time on the NL1 or NL2, so I'm not sure if there were sound improvements over those the others commented on. This is one I stayed up with for hours as I got lost playing and programming.

 

Microwave XTk - I really like wavetable synthesis, and this isn't really a virtual analog, but it's kind of a virtual digitalog of the old PPG, which I still love (Dave, you need to sell me your 2.2!). It sounds great!

 

Waldorf Q - It took me about 9 months to get one and it was really worth the wait. You can get lost in this one and although I didn't think the step sequencer would be of much use to me, it's actually a blast to play with. Get the 32 voice expansion so you can really get the sounds it offers.

 

Waldorf Q Plus - This is where I hope virtual analogs are going. The idea of putting analog filters on with the digital modeling is to me the next great evolution of the VA's. I can't wait to get some finger time on this one.

 

Access Virus KB/Indigo/b - Probably my favorite if I had to pick one. Dave's description as a "nasty little box" is quite accurate for me. This one really can get downright dirty sounding and while programming can be a pain, it's way fun and has one of the best sounds going.

 

Novation Supernova Pro X - I think this is one of the most underrated synths around. I'm not exactly sure why the Virus and Waldorf get so much publicity and buzz and the Supernovas don't, but it's definitely worth playing. I've really enjoyed this and it's offerred up some of the best lead and bass sounds I've heard on the VA's.

 

JP-8000/8080 - I still love these. They may not offer as much as some of the newer VA's but you can count on them to come through with new sounds every time you sit down to play them.

 

Korg MS-2000 - I agree that the build quality is really lacking here, but I think it sounds really thick. I just wish it had more than 4 voice poly.

 

QuasiMidi Raven Max - I sold mine, unfortunately, but it has some really good analog emulations in it. I guess it doesn't quality as a VA because it's really more of a dance/groove kind of thing, but it still does some great sounds.

 

See, this is my problem, I think each of these synths has something special and unique to offer. If I could only pick one, it would be the Virus. If I could only pick two it would be the Virus and Q.

 

I don't see the Korg Z-1 as a virtual analog, even though I guess that's the idea since it was supposed to be multiple Prophecies. I see it more as in its own class, and I think it makes some of the most unique sounds of the digital synths. Probably not a good endorsement it it's supposed to be a VA.

 

I'm just glad to be living in a time when all these amazing digital synths are available and the analog oldies can be had at a fraction of what they would have cost new back in the day.

[ewkeys]

I really wish that I could afford a Virus or Q. However, I picked up an AN1x on ebay about 4 months ago and I've never been so happy for so long after buying a synth. It sounds just great. It can be smooth or rude. I'm also really happy with it as a way to control midi rig. All those assignable knobs work great for creating automated panning and volume sweeps or resonance and cutoff sweeps. Up to eight totally assignable parameters at a time without including the pressure and position sensitive ribbon,mod, pitchwheel, and aftertouch. With a single button push you have 7 other variations of the same eight knobs. I think I'm in love.

[Robert Smedberg]

Originally posted by R:

Novation Supernova Pro X - I think this is one of the most underrated synths around. I'm not exactly sure why the Virus and Waldorf get so much publicity and buzz and the Supernovas don't, but it's definitely worth playing. I've really enjoyed this and it's offerred up some of the best lead and bass sounds I've heard on the VA's.

I've also wondered why the Supernova don't get more positive feedback. Perhaps the price scare people off.

I had a JP8000 before and sold it because it didn't fit in my rig.

When I bought the Supernova I realized that the sounds is better than JP8000's.

Will probably never sell it.

[Superbobus]

Yammy CS6x is not a VA, is it? For what I know, it's a sample synth with lots of waveforms which you can edit in many ways. I feel this is the follow up of the AN1x. Used it in combination with a Nord Micromodular and they made a great couple. I really like the Virus Indigo and the Waldorf Q but I don't wanna think about them too much (gives me too much GAS!). Maybe later, great stuff.

[coyote]

Isn't this always a huge part of the equation? The street price for the Supernova is roughly $2300 around here. The JP8000 (if you can still find it) is under $1000.

 

Any comparison that only includes sounds, features, and functionality implies an unlimited budget. Which is fine if the target audience for your review is Madonna or Britney or Prince. To simply say the Roland isn't as good as the Novation kinda misses the point IMO.

 

Originally posted by Robert Smedberg:

Originally posted by R:

I've also wondered why the Supernova don't get more positive feedback. Perhaps the price scare people off..

[Robert Smedberg]

Originally posted by coyote:

Isn't this always a huge part of the equation? The street price for the Supernova is roughly $2300 around here. The JP8000 (if you can still find it) is under $1000.

 

Any comparison that only includes sounds, features, and functionality implies an unlimited budget. Which is fine if the target audience for your review is Madonna or Britney or Prince. To simply say the Roland isn't as good as the Novation kinda misses the point IMO.

 

I always rate synths for sounds, functionality, feel and UI.

The last question is if it's worth the price tag.

In this case I think it is worth it!

 

The more importance price has to the equation, the higher risk of getting disappointed. IMO

[coyote]

I respectfully disagree with some of your premises.

 

The 90/50 rule definitely applies here. Can I get 90% of the functionality for only 50% of the price? If the missing 10% isn't a deal-breaker, then saving the money is smart.

 

As for disappointment, I compare it to buying a sportscar. Choosing between, say, a Porsche Boxter and a Mazda Miata. Both will get me where I want to go, both perform well, both are charming in their own way.... the one which is acknowledged as the higher-performance choice also happens to cost three times as much as the other. Clearly the market segment which can afford the Porsche has the option to buy the Mazda. The reverse does not apply.

 

So if I'm writing a review for Car&Driver magazine, do I measure the Miata against the Boxter and proclaim the Miata falls short? It's a pointless review, as we are dealing with two different market segments. Else every car must be reviewed against the Lamborghini Diablo, and they will all fall short and everyone who buys a sportscar that's not a Diablo will be disappointed.

 

Originally posted by Robert Smedberg:

I always rate synths for sounds, functionality, feel and UI.

The last question is if it's worth the price tag.

In this case I think it is worth it!

The more importance price has to the equation, the higher risk of getting disappointed. IMO

[Robert Smedberg]

Originally posted by coyote:

I respectfully disagree with some of your premises.

 

The 90/50 rule definitely applies here. Can I get 90% of the functionality for only 50% of the price? If the missing 10% isn't a deal-breaker, then saving the money is smart.

 

As for disappointment, I compare it to buying a sportscar. Choosing between, say, a Porsche Boxter and a Mazda Miata. Both will get me where I want to go, both perform well, both are charming in their own way.... the one which is acknowledged as the higher-performance choice also happens to cost three times as much as the other. Clearly the market segment which can afford the Porsche has the option to buy the Mazda. The reverse does not apply.

 

So if I'm writing a review for Car&Driver magazine, do I measure the Miata against the Boxter and proclaim the Miata falls short? It's a pointless review, as we are dealing with two different market segments. Else every car must be reviewed against the Lamborghini Diablo, and they will all fall short and everyone who buys a sportscar that's not a Diablo will be disappointed.

 

In this particular case the JP8000 don't have 90% of Supernovas functionality, maybe 35-40%, so the 90/50 rule does not apply.

If it was like 90% as good as Supernova, I would probably be happy with that.

 

And why shouldn't you compare the two cars to each other.

Isn't it up to the readers to decide if it's worth the extra money?

And if you don't compare, how do you find out the 90/50 difference?

[realtrance]

Guys,

 

I think it impossible to measure synth "functionality" (whatever that might be referring to) like whole cloth.

 

You can put 20 oscs in a Nord Modular virtual synth, so it wins, right?

 

There are times when I'd prefer a JP8000 over an SNII. There are times when I'd prefer an SNII over a JP8000. There are times when I'd prefer a clear voice (in the shower).

 

Back to more reasonable discussion, please.

 

rt

[realtrance]

And to add a hopefully useful turning point in this thread, regarding the CS6X. Yes, it's a sample-based synth. No, it's not VA. But, it might could well have been, given the style and quality of its sound.

 

Design a well-defined, architected instrument based on samples for the same market that is interested in VA and the technology suddenly doesn't seem to make quite the difference that everyone likes to argue it should.

 

An interesting premise and one I think the CS6X bears out (and for any purists on the matter, you can always stuff two PLG-150ANs into the thing and have "real" VA as well, and compare the sound side by side, even!).

 

What do you think? If you give the same kind of real-time control on a sample-based synth as you would on a VA, does it matter if it's DSP architecture or not, really?

 

Just throwing that up in the air and waiting for the 12-gauge,

 

rt

[Superbobus]

I have this board for almost 1,5 year now and it's still a very inspiring and creative monster. My experience is that it could be a little warmer in sound. This board seems to be made for trance, in-your-face kind of music and I still have to find some ring modulator, damn...

I bought the thing because I wanted a analog sounding synth with the possibility to play piano, rhodes, organ and clavinet on the same instrument. Works for me, except for the piano samples...

Truth is, VAs have more editing possibilities but the CS6x definitely rocks.

[aeon]

realtrance said:

What do you think? If you give the same kind of real-time control on a sample-based synth as you would on a VA, does it matter if it's DSP architecture or not, really?

Nope...but when you find a sample-based synth that offers the same kind of real-time control as My Nord Modular, much less Q, please do let me know!

 

In the 10 months since I last posted in this thread, I have come to appreciate the Korg OASYS for the true monster that it is. The sound quality shames most other synths...compare its Prophet-5 emu with NI Pro-52...night and day in favor of the OASYS. It stands alongside or above the best you can find in hardware or software, native CPU or DSP. One of the best VAs? Yep...and the 24-bit sample playback, physical modeling, FM, and 140+ effects arent too shabby either!

[tenthplanet]

Part of the Supernova's appeal (or not) has to do with it sound. It's good but not memorable where as it's Access counterpart has a sound that goes "listen to me!!!". To put it in more traditional terms... The Access is like a Moog and the the Novation is like an ARP. (I will now hide in the bunker for awhile.)

 

Michael

[Robert Smedberg]

Originally posted by tenthplanet:

(I will now hide in the bunker for awhile.)

 

Michael

I think I need to get my sandwedge.

 

(don't worry, I'm cool)

[Tusker]

I hope the combination of romplers with VA features comes about. Id' love to be able to load samples into the nord modular. I'd love to have true oscillator sync on the current roland romplers the way (i believe) the JD800 did. I'd like to see something better than ADSR envelopes on VA's. I'd like to see fm and other kinds of modelling all blended in. Something like the Z1 with samples, would be cool. Or even better, a synth with an interface like the TC Fireworx. Keep the prewired routing (source=>filter=amp) so it doesn't become a modular synth. Pick a sound generator, a filter, modulators, etc until you run out of dsp.

 

The current marketing of synths makes no sense to me at all. YOu have these artificially different streams, rompler, va, sampler, fm. Then (with a few exceptions like pianos) you load the same kinds of sounds into all their factory patches. What's the point?

 

Jerry

[Tusker]

Oops. Back on topic. As to rating the VA's, I love my An1x.

 

I like the sound of the Q and the Virus. The others are great but they really don't elicit that much of a response from me. (I like the feedback oscillator for leads on the JP80x0, and warm pad sounds on the novations.) The xy pad and the multiple modelling capabilities make the z1 quite special. The nord modular would be my ideal synth except for the oscillators, which I hope will be upgraded to a more NL3 type of sound.

 

The only exception is the MS2000 which I have tried to like, but can't.

 

Jerry

[Superbobus]

Something like the Z1 with samples, would be cool.

I play in this 16(!) piece band and there's another keyboardist. His setup is Korg only and his coolest synth, IMO, is his Z1. When I compare this one to my CS6x from the outside, they have a lot in common. Also the way both synths sound is quite in the same direction, although I've got the feeling that the CS6x is more butt-kicking and the Z1 is cleaner, but I don't know too much about the Z1. Is the Z1 a ROMpler or a VA or is it a synth with waveform samples and no instrument-like samples like the CS6x has?

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Superbobus:

Is the Z1 a ROMpler or a VA or is it a synth with waveform samples and no instrument-like samples like the CS6x has?

The Z1 is a physical modelling synth. It does analog modelling like a regular va. Additionally it has Organ, E-piano, Brass, Reed, Plucked String, &

Bowed String models, though these are better used freaky stuff than for straight up emulations, apparently. From what I heard in the store, it's a very expressive synth.

 

I mentioned it because it goes beyond the VA paradigm using dsp.

 

Jerry

[The T Dot]

If you have a Triton, there is an optional user-installable Z1 board. It will give you all the Z1 sounds, but keep in mind that it has 6 voices instead of 12... not that it matters much. Being able to integrate it with the standard Triton combinations is very cool.

[aeon]

Tusker said:

I hope the combination of romplers with VA features comes about...I'd love to have true oscillator sync on the current roland romplers the way (i believe) the JD800 did.

That was the Roland JD-990, but I totally agree with the sentiment. It seems so possible...but it seems like the market does not want it.

 

Tusker said:

Or even better, a synth with an interface like the TC Fireworx. Keep the prewired routing (source=>filter=amp) so it doesn't become a modular synth. Pick a sound generator, a filter, modulators, etc until you run out of dsp.

I brought that idea up in the forum here, and it got very little response. Granted, my context was vintage synth emulation, but that could simply be one aspect of the design.

 

Imagine an oscillator that would derive waveforms from tracing the contour of a fractal...you would have knobs for zoom, iteration, set, etc. Imagine then also having the same kind of generator powering a waveshaper module...sigh. So many potentials, so little market.

 

Tusker said:

I like the sound of the Q and the Virus...The nord modular would be my ideal synth except for the oscillators, which I hope will be upgraded to a more NL3 type of sound.

I love the sound of my Q and Virus as well...and I love my Nord Mod. OS4 for the Nord Mod will bring all of the osc and filter models from the NL3, including the unison modes, etc. I also just heard that there will be an implementation of phase modulation in the OS4 release, but none of this is yet confirmed. Also know that while the very base waveforms in the Nord Mod may be a bit too perfect for some peoples liking, consider that they can be shaped (aside from the context of the rest of the patch) with great precision...there has been some excellent discussion on the mailing list about this very subject.

 

Last, if you do not like the Nord Mod oscs, I ask...how do you like the Virus oscs when doing the non-spectral waves, i.e., base saw or square? To me they are weak...no life at all, very sterile. Thank goodness for the rest of the synth architecture and those uber-alles filters...they redeem it!

 

And if you like the Z1, youd love the Korg OASYS! Run a physical model of a struck metal sheet into a quadrature formant-and-pitch shift modular delay, and youve got fresh sound, lemme tell ya!

[Tusker]

Originally posted by aeon:

Imagine an oscillator that would derive waveforms from tracing the contour of a fractal...you would have knobs for zoom, iteration, set, etc. Imagine then also having the same kind of generator powering a waveshaper module...sigh.

Aeon, you got me. I have no idea of the math behind it, or what it would sound like. I do understand the concept of variability and instability, but I am curious as to what harmonic spectra are expected and what the instability does to them? (modulating an analog oscillator with noise is the closest my feeble brain can come up with.)

 

Originally posted by aeon:

Last, if you do not like the Nord Mod oscs, I ask...how do you like the Virus oscs when doing the non-spectral waves, i.e., base saw or square? To me they are weak...no life at all, very sterile. Thank goodness for the rest of the synth architecture and those uber-alles filters...they redeem it!

Yes, I feel the same. Ideally the modular would have oscillators like the Q and the filters like the virus. Dreaming....

 

Jerry

[Bobro]

Originally posted by aeon:

Imagine an oscillator that would derive waveforms from tracing the contour of a fractal...

Somebody is doing "Fibonacci waveforms" with CSound, I believe.

Sorry I can't remember the URL where I came across the info! There were no sound files or .sco/.orc files so I can't say how it sounded.

 

-CB

[Jeebus]

It's been 2 years, and I thought it would be interesting to revisit this thread and hear how everyone would rate the VAs available today.

 

Still have an old favorite? Has a new synth taken the 'lead'? How does the Ion fit in?

 

discuss

[RABid]

I have 4 hardware VA's right now and a fifth is at the top of my to buy list. Of all the VA's I have tried, none sound as good as the Nord Modular G2.

 

The G2, to my ears, is the best sounding VA ever. It is much smoother than the usual Nord sound. The big problem is low polyphony as it is easy to knock it down to 3. That makes this a speciality instrument.

 

Virus Classic makes a great filler VA. With a minimum of 18 note polyphony, good sound, good effects, and cheap price you can put together the basics of a song on this instrument.

 

I still like the old Nord Modular but it sounds more like an EML than a Moog. With carful programming it sounds good, and the right effects unit can thicken the sound.

 

Novation KSR is the modern day JP8000. It is my pad machine. The big complaint is the operating system. How can a wonderful knob and slider layout get stuck with such a horrible OS?

 

Roland SH32. This is the "almost" VA. It almost works. To get good sounds you have to layer lots of parts. In a multi this 32 voice VA is easily reduced to 4. And then, if you hit a 4 note chord you can hear a horrible delay before all 4 parts kick in. Because of this it is not even a good pad machine. It is decent filler for effects and arps. Probably worth the $200 they were going for at the end. That is what I paid for mine.

 

Robert

[Analogaddict]

Cool topic! I wasn´t around when this was first posted; here´s my .02, divided into like, don´t like, haven´t tried... Most of this is from a gigging perspective, I don´t spend a lot of time in the studio.

 

ANALOGADDICT LIKE:

Access Virus series, perhaps a bit thin sounding oscs, but great filters and really easy to get good sounds from. Or maybe I shold say hard to make a bad sound on...

 

Novation Supernova; rich and creamy, but I found it a bit poor in character... rich and creamy but no real core. Maybe I didn´t spend enough time on this one.

 

Clavia Nord Leads; I´m a bit biased here, I was basically brought up on Nords. The interface rules , working these synths is extremely pleasing. The sound is cleaner than most of the other VA:s at first, but with some tweaking it´s easy to get all kinds of sounds. The "FM" on the Lead 3 makes for great mid '80:s DX+MKS sounds! I wish they were 8 or 16 part multitimbral, four parts isn´t always enough. Also, the MIDI functionality could be improved with MIDI send zones, velocity curves and so on.

 

Alesis ION; Great sound, a bit confusing interface at first. 8 voices is not a lot for live gigging with multiple sounds, but the voices are great! I want one. Perhaps the 'ultimate' VA setup would be an Ion and a NM G2 rack.

 

Nord Modular series; I have a Micro Modular which I have used for anything from string machine and lead/bass machine to vocoder and effects processor. I´ve even run a Rhodes through it for compression and auto-pan! The sound and the size make it a winner for me.

 

Nord Modular G2; I´ve spent about an hour on the G2, only playing and tweaking presets. To me, it has the best sound of all the VA:s, I was really impressed and spent a second considering how much I would get if I sold my my Super Jupiter! The G2 suffers from the same 4-layer thing as the Leads, but this time you can store variations (a bunch of them), and for live use that´s the ticket. There´s also "MIDI modules" that are supposed to facilitate MIDI mapping and so on. The vocoder sounded fan- tas -tic!

 

Waldorf Q - too bad it´s discontinued, this synth had a character of it´s own alright! I suppose the Q+ doesn´t fit the bill with its analoig filters.

 

Yamaha AN1x - IMO this one can still cut it. It does suffer from some VA syndromes; filter aliasing and a bit tame sound, but I think it has something extra. Sometimes I think about replacing one of my MIDI keyboards with an AN.

 

ANALOGADDICT DON´T LIKE (It´s not THAT dramatic really!)

 

"Oberheim" OB-12. Didn´t sound too good, didn´t work all that well. The UI was great with all the function parameters jumping up on the screen, but in totality it didn´t cut it foir me.

 

Korg MS2000 - sounded rather ballsy, the vocoder was cool. In a live situation it did not blend too well, it either took over too much of the low midrange or was drowned out. I used it for synth bass on a couple of gigs, and neber fell in love with it. the UI SUCKS on a dark stage!

 

ANALOGADDICT HAVEN´T SPENT TIME WITH

Quasimidi series; I´ve tried them, but not a lot.

Roland VA:s, I tried the JP-8080 at a trade show some time ago, I loked it a lot but never returned to it. Maybe I missed something here.

 

[Andre Lower]

Great Thread ! Go on guys, this update is helping me a lot...

[MikeT156]

Hey Analogaddict, good objective review of what's out there. We all have boards we prefer from one manufacturer to another for a variety of reasons. I like the fact that you state your own bias, which is very cool. Can't say that I disagree with you either.

 

Mike T.

[Synthguy]

It's amazing how valuable the statements in this thread still are.

 

My JP8000 is still an integral part of my sound, although I hate the modulation system, and every patch uses the onboard EQ. The EQ code is a little dated, and it irks me now how it sounds, so I'm going to have to tweak the patches to take it off. The filters are a bit generic and can be brittle, with that dreaded aliasing, but they still hold up well.

 

I can also vouch for the Ensoniq FIZMO and Kurzweil line. The FIZMO's filters have an interesting quality to them, and with that wealth of wavetables and fantastic Ensoniq effects give me a terrific PPG-like synth with a character all its own. The Kurzweil sure offers up juicy filters itself, if a bit generically too, and its wealth of waveforms and oscillator options make it a great stand-in for a VA.

 

I'm surprised that Marino thinks the Korg Z1 isn't fat or juicy! My MOSS board impressed me with its slightly Moogy 24db resonant LPF and 3 oscs. I respect his opinion greatly, as there must be something pretty impressive about these other synths like the Access Virus C, especially with the Moog filter model.

 

I'm considering an Alesis Ion, Aruturia synths and Nord Modular G2 myself, as that would cover all my analog lusts, but that puts me in range of that dreaded real analog behemoth, the Andromeda! Oh, the pain, the pain...