The bed thread

[Guest]

Favorites: Weighted = kurz pc88mx

Non weighted = alesis qs6

 

The kurz worries me a little since I've seen a lot of complains on problems with the action with time... we'll see. The qs action is getting a little noisy, but still feels good.

 

My yamaha cs6x bed is horrible... The only reason I bought the kybd vs the module was for the extra knobs and I got it in a sale for only about $50 more than the rack mount would have cost me.

 

Rod

[Guest]

My favs for synth action are my two synths and they're totally on opposite ends of the spectrum. The Matrix 6 has a dry feeling to it, very clear and awesome at low velocities, with a hard yet playable aftertouch. My K5000S has a really soft and spongy bed, with soft feeling keys too.. the aftertouch is a tad sluggish, but it really feels good to play.

 

Weighted Favs: XV88 and MP9000. The XV is so wonderful, just such excellent connection and perfect aftertouch. Roland tweaked the A90 action just right. The MP is so pianistic, though it is a bit tough to get lower volume levels to be consistent. I also loved the old ZR76 keybed, it was the weighted Fatar 76 key action, the same as the SL1176, which they don't make anymore. I actually sold their last one to a guy who was leaving the country this summer - it just felt like heaven to me.

 

 

synth keys I hate: Nord 1 & 2, K2000 and the Roland VK-7 - why did they put synth keys on an organ?!? It sounds better than the hammond but has stupid spongy keys with open bottoms!

 

Weighted keys I hate: Qs8 (too light!) PC88 (too squeaky) PF85 and even the P200 which still feels like its PF ancestors, and even the DG8.

 

 

And this one doesn't quite fit: My favorite keyboard ever (if you can call it that) is the Buchla 200 contact controller that had polyphonic aftertouch. The aftertouch is so expressive that you can sit there with your finger slowly pushing down on the connection plate and sweep the oscillator through six octaves as slowly as you want. Of course, I never did play a cord on that thing, but still.. it was fun to tinker with.

[Dave Bryce]

You guys know I love to dig up threads from the back pages...here's a way interesting one that many of you have probably not seen.

 

I'd love to hear your comments...

 

dB

[joegerardi]

I love the KX-76 keybed. I believe it's the same as the DX-7.

 

In high school, we had a 7' K. Kawai grand. It was absolutley fabulous. It had such and incredible touch that it took a little getting used to. One day soon after we got it, I was wailing through Rachmaninoff's "Flight of the Bumblebee, and my piano instructor (who also taught at the HS) came into the auditorium and screamed at me to "stop playing the piano with my elbows."

 

The EIII had a fast, tight action.

 

Maybe because I grew up playing a bunch of different organs, but I love the P-R action. My P-10, Arp 2600, and Arp Quadra all had it, and I was sorry to see everything switching over to the Yamaha-style that is prevalent today. Now, of course, that's all that's available, and I'm used to it.

 

I once did a concert on a Bõsendorfer 9 1/2' Imperial Grand. It was the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. There's nothing one can say about these keybeds that truly express their incredible feel. They simply have to be played to be believed. I got to practice on it a bit, and really had some fun. I was astounded at Grieg's "In The Hall Of The Mountain King" because I tend to play that with a heavy hand, and the Bõsie just sang along like it could read my mind and knew what I was going to do before I did.

 

Though few ever get to do this, I got to play the pipe organ at The Cathedral of St. John The Divine in NYC. Doing Bach's Trio in G Major on that Tracker Action bastard was amazing.

 

On the other side:

I never could get used to Baldwin actions. They always felt sloppy to me.

 

Rolands on the whole feel squishy and slow. I'm talking about the synth 'beds, not the 88-keys.

 

Probably the worst-ever, most hated keybed I ever encountered was on the Ensoniq VFX-SD. I bought one for the sound, and sold it very soon after because of its crappy keybed.

[musicman1ovation.net]

I've gone pretty nuts on this issue. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif The difference between action, per se, and the action's bed, and as importantly for me, whether that action has aftertouch, makes a lot of difference to me. I prefer weighted in any case, but I recently found out that I greatly preferred the Roland RD-150 to the Roland XV-88! The difference? Well, they both have the same action, and maybe even a similar bed (I believe so), but the XV-88 has aftertouch and the RD-150 doesn't. I found that even if I like a weighted action (and the PA-4 does me OK, although it isn't really my favorite... many other things were involved in my decision on the purchase, though, and how the PA-4 responded in the RD-150 worked better for me than in the XV-88) that aftertouch mushiness at the bottom of the throw messes up the whole experience. As it is, since I didn't really care for the D-Beam on the XV-88 anyway, and since I did like the idea of sample RAM in the XV-5080, getting the RD-150 as a piano/controller, and an XV-5080 worked better for me than the XV-88.

 

I spent months looking. I like the Yamaha S-80 except for the aftertouch. It isn't that I don't like what aftertouch does. If I want aftertouch, I use my DX-7, and that's fine. Aftertouch with synth action effects me much differently than with weighted action. And in any event, there are other controllers I prefer to aftertouch. Going WAY back, the Yamaha CS-80 had wooden keys and polyphonic aftertouch, and I did like it!! It was a unique, one of a kind, and it had fantastic keyboard workmanship as well as a true signature sound.

 

The Kawai 9000 ALMOST got me. It seemed really nice, action-wise. The problem with it was that there seemed to be no zero velocity. In other words, you could press a key VERY slowly and lightly, but the note would sound (softly) no matter what. On most any weighted board I have, there is a velocity threshold beyond which you must go before the note will sound at all. I knew at the time that the MP-9000 has all sort of setting for velocity and voicing, etc., and my sales person apparently owned one, but when I asked if he could get rid of the sounding note, he spent a little while working with it, but was never able to alter that. Whether it was his not knowing how to change it, or a mal-functioning unit, or just the way that unit functions, I don't know, but since it was the only place in this rather large metro area that had one in stock, I wasn't able to get around it. Too bad though, because although it wasn't my favorite piano sound (still pretty good), I was mainly looking for a weighted controller. Since I was also looking for a more modern ROMpler and/or sampler, that is what got me into the XV-88.

 

Of course, if I really want good action, I play the Yamaha grand circa 1969. I really LOVE that action, and only a Bosendorfer has rung my bell more.

[Faruk]

Well if I`m gonna talk about the worst, then that`s definetly any Kawai keyboard. I was also desapointed with some Korg`s.

 

For me Yamaha makes good non weighted keybeds, and also good wighted ones, esspecialy P200 Digital Piano. Kurzwail also felt good.

 

Faruk

[b3wiz]

I agree with Ken Soper that there is a lot of variation within the same model. While most actions get looser, my QS8 went from very heavy to nearly unplayable. I have played other QS8s like this, but I played a new QS8.1 a couple of weeks ago that was wonderful. Playing predominantly B3 the past few years has made even my preferrence in piano actions want for something lighter. I usually like the PC88 action although this too varies from board to board.

 

I personally hate the Korg and Yamaha S80 action. Just doesn't seem like there is a bottom to it to me.

 

I like all the better Yamaha and Korg synth actions alot. I think they are the same. The keys are for sure. The QS7 Alesis has very nice action too.

 

Love my C and B Hammonds. The new CX3 Korg has very wonderful keys, but there are a few things they will have to change before I trade my VK7 in even though I'm not fond of it's action. Running it thru my 122 helps me to forget about that though.

 

I had a Rhodes Stage piano that practically broke fingers. It was dissapointing considering I sold a fairly nice playing Suitcase Rhodes to get it.

[murph]

I didn't see any mention of the Trinity keybed, which I love. I remember hearing that it had the DX7 keybed, and a few people have mentioned that one as well.

[Allan Speers]

The MP9000 does it for me, but it's just too hard to carry around. Actually, it's a tad light for my taste, but I like heavy actions.

 

I still use my old Roland A-80. The black keys don't quite match the white keys in velocity, a well-known defect, but it's fast AND chunky at the same time. -And it works well for organ as well. Too bad the after-touch is basically worthless.

------

 

Just bought a Roland FP-3. It's a basic piano-simulator, not a midi-controller or rompler. The sounds are only average, but the keybed feels JUST like a heavy grand. Unplugged, it feels incredible. Unfortunately, after owning it for two weeks the charm is wearing off. The unplugged feel is still there, but there is something wrong with it's ability to deliver fast-soft notes with consistency. It may be the velocity curve. I sure hope so. I'm going to get the new Kurzweil expression-mate and re-map the FP-3's curve. If this works, it might be the best acoustic-grand simulation currently made (if you like 'em HEAVY.) Got me fingers crossed.

 

This must be a Roland creation, it doesn't resemble a Fatar at all.

 

I'd like to get other opiniuons on this very interesting keyboard.

 

This message has been edited by Allan Speers on 05-28-2001 at 04:08 AM

[Botch.]

Even though I play a Kurz PC-88, the best weighted action I've tried is the Kawai 9000; if it were more portable I'd have traded up to it.

Synth action, I love my EX-5. Its different from my old DX-7, but I can't quite put it into words why, the DX may just be worn out.

Worst? My Nord Lead. That thing is so much fun to play, with the pitch stick and knobs, but the keybed just stinks.

[coyote]

My Hammond A-100 feels real good. So does my newly acquired Rhodes MK-80.

 

My old Casio WK-1500 is fair at best, and while I love my Roland JP-8000 I'll confess that I'm not thrilled w/ the feel of the keyboard. For example, I don't know why but I can run the Tarkus 'Eruption' left-hand riff just fine on the Hammond or the MK-80 but NOT on the JP-8000.

[synthetic]

I used to really like the feel of my Wavestation keyboard, but now it's tough to play lightly on it. It feels like it needs oiling or something - the way a trumpet's keys feel when they need oil. I'm not sure if I've been spoiled by the QS8 FATAR or if the keyboard has gotten worse. I think it's a Yamaha keybed.

 

Can a bed be lubed? Do I need a specialist to lube my ivories?

[IanD]

I have a Korg i3 and a MS2000. The i3 has a nice board but the Ms2000 does feel a bit cheap.

Does anybody know were they are from?

 

Ian

[b3wiz]

Originally posted by synthetic:

I used to really like the feel of my Wavestation keyboard, but now it's tough to play lightly on it. It feels like it needs oiling or something - the way a trumpet's keys feel when they need oil. I'm not sure if I've been spoiled by the QS8 FATAR or if the keyboard has gotten worse. I think it's a Yamaha keybed.

 

Can a bed be lubed? Do I need a specialist to lube my ivories?

Any wavestation is no spring chicken. The felts are probably gone. It is more than likely a Yamaha keyboard. It can be replaced, but it won't be cheap. Depends how much you like it. It was a cool board.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by IanD:

I have a Korg i3 and a MS2000. The i3 has a nice board but the Ms2000 does feel a bit cheap.

Does anybody know were they are from?

 

I believe that both probably use FATAR keybeds. That's what the vast majority of manufacturers use.

 

AFAIK, only Yamaha makes all of their own keybeds. Roland makes some of their own, and use some FATAR. I think pretty much everyone else is using FATAR keybeds currently.

 

dB

[Bosendorphen]

I love the Rhodes Chroma feel. Great combination of all bits. The Polymoog is a close second, although the response of the synth does not mirror it accurately (this really affects our perception of feel).

This is so true. I'd also be interested in others' comments regarding the responsiveness of the sound (and the quality of both the sound and the programming) affecting the perception of the feel of the action.

 

For example, a few years ago I picked up a Studiologic TMK-88 controller (after reading the favorable review in Keyboard). It was for those quick and dirty pick up gigs, or those where you have to be on and off stage FAST. So I used it in conjunction with my Alesis QS synth.

 

I edited the filter/velocity relationship in one of the user piano sounds to have a nice change from mellow to bright, adapting it to the feel of the TMK. WOW! It made the TMK "feel" better than I would have thought just playing without sound; it seemed too light an action that way.

 

But tailoring the sound's responsiveness really made the ol' Rubbermaid controller (er... the TMK) really seem to feel a lot nicer.

 

I'd prefer a fully weighted action at gigs where there's more time and stage room (which is why I have my Yamaha P90). But this is a good substitute when stage size and time is an issue. Plus I don't have to worry so much about the 13 lb. keyboard getting bopped around.

 

I'm sure others have similar experiences but I wanted to share mine and would love to hear anyone else's.

[eric]

Wow, Ells, you surely went dumpster diving for this gem of a 6-year-old post!

 

I never read this one the first time, but will add my favorites. I think it is important to categorize whether it is a weighted/unweighted, synth/waterfall, digital/acoustic keyboard.

 

So here are my favorites:

 

Weighted acoustic: Probably Yamaha grand pianos. They are very consistent and I'm always tickled when I get to play one.

 

Weighted digital: Yamaha S90. I like the balanced action. Very good for piano, but no so heavy that you hate it for non-piano sounds. Also, very robust and pummel-worthy

 

Unweighted synth: DSI PEK

 

Waterfall: Hammond tonewheel (A-100, B-3) and also Nord Electro

 

Regards,

Eric

[keyman_sam]

Favorite non-weighted : Fantom S61

Favorite weighted : Yamaha P250

Favorite waterfall : Nord Electro 73

[keyman_sam]

Most hated non-weighted : Triton LE/Karma

Most hated weighted : M-Audio Keystation 88

[Marzzz]

Weighted: Roland A-80, it just played like a piano very well, even if it didn't have a graded action and whatnot. Aftertouch on it was the worst, though- the old "hands of steel" to play it. I guess I don't worry about having a perfect piano action, because the piano sounds themselves will always be a compromise.

 

Synth: I really liked the GeneralMusic S2 and S3, nice feel, weighted but fast, and very nice aftertouch. Polyphonic aftertouch at that!

 

Overall: Kurzweil MidiBoard. Nice piano touch, if a bit on the light side, but wonderful polyaftertouch. Mine is 18 years old (I am the 2nd owner) and it is not going anywhere.

 

Others I like: The Andromeda and PEK (thanks dB!), overall very nice. Properly refurbed Hammond B3/C3.

 

Well maintained Steinway B or D. Like driving a Ferrari, mama mia!!

[guestuserguestuser.com]

I had a KX88 for a while, I remember that for years, I kept hearing about how great it was, so I had to finally have one to see for myself. I got mine used in the mid 90's. It was very good, especially considering it was made in 1984. I wonder what technology they used, anybody know? I remember in those days, mfr's used "oil-dampering" and all kinds of other wierd things to simulate weighted action. I don't know if 'hammer action', they way it's used now, was around in those days or not. Whatever they used, it felt rather good. I think Yamaha has a tradition of good synth and digital piano keybeds.

[mate stubb]

Yayes:

Rhodes Chroma

Nord Stage

Hammond B-3

Wurlitzer

 

Nayes:

Fender Rhodes

Baldwin ElectroPro

Hohner Pianet

[kanker.]

As far a digital synths go, the Roland D-50 had action that was absolutely divine. Staying strictly digital, the Kawai AWA PRO action is amazing.

[SpaceNorman]

I've always been a big fan of Yamaha's feel. I love the way my P200 feels and while I'm not a big fan of unweighted synth keyboards - I did grow to like my old DX7II as well. I'm also very happy with the way my new Roland RD700SX feels. I absolutely hated the way a couple of the old Korgs I had felt - and dumped 'em as quick as I could because of it.

[DanS]

My S80 is nice.

The PEK is also good, but can be a bit wonky sometimes.

Roland Juno G blows chunks, big ones.

[King Julien]

My Kawai grand feels great, but the Wurly simply *inspires*.

[Bosendorphen]

Originally posted by eric:

Wow, Ells, you surely went dumpster diving for this gem of a 6-year-old post!

Thanks Eric! My pleasure!

 

I saw that Dave Bryce had already resurrected the thread once, but that was just a year or so later. Following in his footsteps!

[retrokeys]

OK time for heresy. The classic Fender Rhodes sounded great but felt like driving a truck. Yuk.

I always wished that one could get Fender sound with a Wurli feel. These days you can (or at least close). Yay.

[stepay]

Pretty sure I'm in the minority on this one, but I dislike weighted keys. Much prefer the super fast action of synths like Roland Juno-D or Juno-G or Korg X50 or even the Korg Triton EXTREME.

 

I like the sounds that come out of some of those other boards, but I like the fast action like from the ones mentioned above.

[fjzingo]

Roland D20 anyone, .. had an action I really liked at the time.

 

Yamaha p90, 120.......GH action for weighted, I used to be fond of the roland PA4 and 5 but they are not even in the same ballpark. The Kawai 9500 was also very nice when I tried it ages ago.

 

Motif for unweighted, that same old DX7 keybed is the best. I wonder how the new keybed in the xs's fells since they are new.

 

By the way wavestation (which I don't like the keybead on) is a yamaha keybead I had to change a key a while ago, it's not so strange that these keyboards weigh a lot thinking of all the screws you had to remove about a kilo or two....

/fjzingo