Expensive hardware - what keeps us buying it?

[Dave Bryce]

When it comes to synths, what can be done these days with software is nothing short of jaw-dropping - both in terms of pricing and power/features that would cost insane amounts to realize in hardware (yes, Cherry Audio GX-80, I’m looking at you).  
 

So, what is it that keeps us drooling over things like Oberheim OB-X8, or Groove Synthesis 3rd Wave, Arturia PolyBrute or Moog Muse?  Is it mostly the sound?  How much is the physical presence a factor? Or…?

 

Same with expensive guitars and amps, processors or microphones.  How many of you guys own/dream about expensive audio gear, or is your hardware lust restricted to synths?

 

Mics are a good place to poke around here, I’ll bet.  I’m guessing just about everyone here owns at least a few mics.  How many are inexpensive utilitarian choices like SM58?  Do you turn towards modeling mics for sonic variety, or collect the Real Thing? Or…?

 

How about guitar tone?  Real amps and pedals (and mics, of course), or the convenience/power/portability of Line 6 Helix/Kemper Profiler/etc?  I sure love my Eventide H9/Strymon Iridium combo, especially when I toss them into my bag for gigs….

 

….and then, there’s inexpensive knock-offs.  Y’know, the whole Behringer’s Oberheim makes it possible for me to own the sound I crave (or most of it, anyway) rather than spend $5k?

 

Short form - will there continue to be a market for The Real Thing? Does the younger generation aspire to/romanticize expensive well-built hardware, or is it more just those of us who grew up with it that keep the flame burning?

 

 

 

 

dB

[Motif88]

Well…i’ve had all of the above. I traded in my mostly software synth driven rig for the Montage M8x. I still have Logic and a whole bunch of software synths but the interaction between the M8x GEX keyboard with poly aftertouch for both internal and software synths (GX-80, DIva, Omnisphere, etc.) has me actually playing more and menu diving less. Now, I’m in my home studio, no longer playing live and have my own unique requirements. As much as I love my soft-synths and I have more than a few, the hardware interaction is still satisfying, hence my Nektar Panomara CS12. 

 

Your mileage may vary but even now, if I were to spend $$ in my “retirement” it would be for a UDO Super Gemini, PolyBrute 12 or alike. I think Moog missed the mark with 8 voices and no poly aftertouch for the Muse.

 

[NewImprov]

I think we just happen to live in a great time for synthesis, both hardware and software.

 

I currently have 2 go-to lead synth patches. One is an Alchemy patch running through NI Guitar Rig. Many parameters of this patch are assigned to midi controllers, I use pitch and mod wheels, aftertouch, expression pedal and an Expressive E Touché controller. My goal was to come up with the synth equivalent of an Adrian Belew/Fripp/Terje Rypdal/David Torn solo timbre, with expressive qualities that really require learning muscle memory to reach them. The other is a sync'd PWM lead from the Take 5, also with a lot of real-time controllers. Both patches really challenge me to learn to play them. Both make me very happy when I do solo with them. It doesn't matter to me that one comes from a laptop, and the other from a synth, they both feel like instruments to me.

 

I gig with a Rhodes and a dual manual clonewheel, the Crumar Mojo. The Mojo is literally a custom controller running an embedded Windows machine hosting a VST plugin. The Crumar feels and sounds like I'm sitting at my A100 when I'm playing it, my other clones (Hammond XK-1 and 1C) felt like I was listening to a good recording of a Hammond. I've probably got every Rhodes plug-in that exists, and, when I gigged with them, the sound reaching the audience was definitely that of a Rhodes, but regardless of which controller I used, it never felt like I was playing a Rhodes. So now I take the Rhodes, mostly for my own satisfaction.

 

I'm pretty deep into the modular world, both Eurorack and 5u. I also have a bunch of semi-modular stuff, like the Moog 32/Dfam/SubH, a Behringer 2600 and a Make Noise 0-Coast. I've worked with both VCV and Reaktor, and years ago, used the Nord Modular extensively. The hardware modular world creates a different experience for me, it feels like I can just start with a vague idea, and patch stuff together and see where it leads me. With the Software/virtual modulars, it feels more like I have to start with a stronger idea of what I want and see how I can get there, with the the hardware, it's more like, "I have this collection of circuits, where can it take me." The limitations of the hardware will make me more creative, where with the software, you can have an endless supply of modules.

 

You mention microphones. I have a number of the Warm Audio clones, their 47, 87 and 84 clones, pairs of the latter 2. I've worked with the "real" mics, these get me as close as I need to be, they're good enough mics that it's not their fault if I get a bad sound, it's down to my engineering skills. I'm pretty happy with my results, my mastering engineer thinks my mixes sound good, and my clients are happy. I swear the pair of WA87's I have sound way better than the U87 I used to work with, but I think that was just a particularly bad sounding '87.

 

I've got no need whatsoever for a workstation synth, my laptop and controllers will get me to any sound I would use a workstation for with a simpler interface and a wider variety of options, and is only marginally more difficult to set up.

 

We are lucky to be synthesizing in this modern world. Would be nice if it paid better, though.

[Dave Bryce]

58 minutes ago, Motif88 said:

I think Moog missed the mark with 8 voices and no poly aftertouch for the Muse.

 

 I’m inclined to agree.  
 

Of the hardware synths I listed in my original post, the Muse is the one that tempts me the least. 

 

dB

[CrossRhodes]

I posted some thoughts on this with links to some younger artists in the recent “Where are the hardware synths” thread. These are just a few examples of the many younger artists I see using either vintage or vintage inspired synths. Pretty much all of the current musicians and bands I like use hardware synths live and on recordings. 
 

 

[AROIOS]

1) Conformity. Most consumers are conformative, they follow trends and fads.

2) Laziness. Most consumers are too lazy to tinker with things, or understand the inner workings of their tools, let alone getting creative with their usage.

3) Imagination (mental masturbation, fairy dust, unicorn fart). Most consumers are highly susceptible to their own wild imagination and/or external psychological suggestions.

[CEB]

I don’t aspire to buy anything electronic anymore.  All my keyboard purchases have been gig driven.  If I never performed I would be happy to spend 80-85% of my time the old SF-10. Then I would fire up the home console organ once in a while. 
 

My most valuable pieces are old vintage things but that is pure accident. Like my old used Strats I got as a school kid.  Used was all I could afford… then it became vintage.
 

 At home I play acoustic stuff.  The expensive stuff just sounds better and opens up with age. It’s just the way it is.   I’m a snob when it comes to acoustic guitars, mandolins and dobros.  Because it is better. 
 

 

[Michael Wright]

At this point I'm aspiring to the hierarchical  theory of musical gear ownership.  Reduction to the  bare minimum of stuff I would need to go make some money.  I just need tools. I've reduced my keyboards to just 3,  and (sacrilegious I know) am pretty much cured of gas.  New gear is cool, but in the final analysis, for me,  it won't make me a better musician,  and tends to be a distraction.  Again YMMV,   As a caveat, I admit I have more VI's than I can ever really use,  but I've stopped that also.  The only thing I long for is a decent real grand !!    Cheers, all , time to go practice. 😃     

[CEB]

I have so much stuff. I don’t know what my kids will do with it when I’m gone.  I’ve given some gear away to school programs and beginner players but it’s not enough. I suck at selling. 

[ProfD]

We can afford to buy expensive hardware instead of looking at magazines and making trips to music stores and dreaming about it.😁😎

[Baldwin Funster]

I've moved on to inexpensive software. I still buy too much of it though.

[J.F.N.]

11 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

When it comes to synths, what can be done these days with software is nothing short of jaw-dropping - both in terms of pricing and power/features that would cost insane amounts to realize in hardware (yes, Cherry Audio GX-80, I’m looking at you).  
 

So, what is it that keeps us drooling over things like Oberheim OB-X8, or Groove Synthesis 3rd Wave, Arturia PolyBrute or Moog Muse?  Is it mostly the sound?  How much is the physical presence a factor? Or…?

 

Same with expensive guitars and amps, processors or microphones.  How many of you guys own/dream about expensive audio gear, or is your hardware lust restricted to synths?

 

Mics are a good place to poke around here, I’ll bet.  I’m guessing just about everyone here owns at least a few mics.  How many are inexpensive utilitarian choices like SM58?  Do you turn towards modeling mics for sonic variety, or collect the Real Thing? Or…?

 

How about guitar tone?  Real amps and pedals (and mics, of course), or the convenience/power/portability of Line 6 Helix/Kemper Profiler/etc?  I sure love my Eventide H9/Strymon Iridium combo, especially when I toss them into my bag for gigs….

 

….and then, there’s inexpensive knock-offs.  Y’know, the whole Behringer’s Oberheim makes it possible for me to own the sound I crave (or most of it, anyway) rather than spend $5k?

 

Short form - will there continue to be a market for The Real Thing? Does the younger generation aspire to/romanticize expensive well-built hardware, or is it more just those of us who grew up with it that keep the flame burning?

 

 

 

 

dB

 

I would say that we shouldn't underestimate the perceived value of a tangible object, and in many cases related to the context we have here, the object also provides a 1:1 tactile control for it's parameters and settings with direct control buttons, knobs, sliders, etc. With a software instrument there are few cases where this can be achieved in a logical natural way, and in addition the software runs on a general purpose hardware, computer, iPad, etc. and is not a single unit tangible object like a hardware instrument.

 

One can also imagine that from an economical perspective buying hardware is most definitely perceived as getting more of a "real value" for our bucks, than we get from a software license, in particular thinking long term.

 

Personally I enjoy hardware a lot more than software and controllers, right now I use Pianoteq with Studiologic SL73 a lot, both which I bought recently for the purpose of working together, but yeah, I am longing for a Grand Piano, the day I decide to buy a house I definitely will start budgeting for the Grand too. But from a practical perspective, Pianoteq on iPad and the SL73 is a real workhorse, and of course I can play a lot of different other sounds with all the software instruments in the iPad as well, so from a practical usage perspective the value of this combination is unbeatable compared to buying a bunch of hardware synths, and a Grand.

 

Next thing I will gear up with is a Mojo 61 and the add-on keyboard to attach to it, then I definitely will grab a UB-Xa at some point. Apart from that I don't really see myself buying any more keyboard hardware unless I find something I would be interested in for a stupid bargain price. At some point I may grab a used Rhodes in decent condition, been longing for that for a long time, but it's nothing urgent, I have bunches of substitutes for when needed, but I definitely want a real one again ( I have owned in total three Rhodes in my life before...).

 

If I start gigging a lot and the constellation is right for it, I will source some type of Leslie as well, but that's a conversation for that day, as there is nothing alike having it behind you breathing in the neck while playing...

 

 

[J.F.N.]

9 hours ago, CEB said:

I have so much stuff. I don’t know what my kids will do with it when I’m gone.  I’ve given some gear away to school programs and beginner players but it’s not enough. I suck at selling. 

 

A Keyboard Corner garage sale weekend?

 

[J.F.N.]

6 hours ago, ProfD said:

We can afford to buy expensive hardware instead of looking at magazines and making trips to music atores and dreaming about it.😁😎

 

The time and age we're living in now definitely has democratized everything that has to do with gear. When, ever before, could you get a 16 voice analog synth, bi-timbral, with a 5 octave keyboard, polyphonic aftertouch, etc. for $1200....

[ABECK]

3 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

 

One can also imagine that from an economical perspective buying hardware is most definitely perceived as getting more of a "real value" for our bucks, than we get from a software license, in particular thinking long term.

 

 

 

There's def more "potential" value on a tangible asset, as it can eventually be resold.  Computers and software have much less opportunity for resale.  There's some, but much less.  There's plenty of both hardware and software that I don't use anymore and could never be resold.  So that potential value of a tangible asset is a paradigm that makes sense to us GenXers and Boomers, as we didn't grow up thinking about owning ones and zeros.

 

On another, similar tangent, I recall seeing a podcast, or a blog talking about how the huge market for vintage guitars will eventually dry up because the heroes of our generation aren't the heroes of today's generation.  I don't really see synths falling into this category, but maybe we are just in a bubble.

[Stokely]

The "we can afford" is definitely a factor.  My gigging is a side deal, and it's been pretty regular for 12 years now.  I make decent money in my "real" job, as does my wife (some years more than I do).

That said, I try to keep "music money" in it's spot, using sales from other gear and gig money for any purchases.   Conversely, I try not to use gig money for non-music stuff!

As far as premium gear--sounds kinda  snobbish but I just like playing it more.   I have a very capable Modx, I like the OS and have gotten used to the keys, but it feels like a child's toy.  It's actually too light.   I know some people are like that with cars (I certainly am not, just get me there in one piece with good AC and don't break down and I'll love you.)  Or watches--my favorite two watches cost a grand total of $30 combined.   They have both kept perfect time for about 5 years now.  They look fine to me.  I have absolutely no urge whatsoever to go spend hundreds on a watch, let alone thousands--the couple times I've gotten one as a gift,  they have stopped working within a couple years.  Screw that!

One thing though--if I wasn't gigging, I'd be completely out of the hardware market other than for a controller (which could actually mean a keyboard if it was the best controller).   I'm all software for sounds at home, have been for many years and there's zero chance that will change.   And because gigging is the reason I have hardware, it means keyboards like the Moog Muse or new Polybrute  aren't a real consideration, as cool as I find them.

[J.F.N.]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

The "we can afford" is definitely a factor.  My gigging is a side deal, and it's been pretty regular for 12 years now.  I make decent money in my "real" job, as does my wife (some years more than I do).

That said, I try to keep "music money" in it's spot, using sales from other gear and gig money for any purchases.   Conversely, I try not to use gig money for non-music stuff!

As far as premium gear--sounds kinda  snobbish but I just like playing it more.   I have a very capable Modx, I like the OS and have gotten used to the keys, but it feels like a child's toy.  It's actually too light.   I know some people are like that with cars (I certainly am not, just get me there in one piece with good AC and don't break down and I'll love you.)  Or watches--my favorite two watches cost a grand total of $30 combined.   They have both kept perfect time for about 5 years now.  They look fine to me.  I have absolutely no urge whatsoever to go spend hundreds on a watch, let alone thousands--the couple times I've gotten one as a gift,  they have stopped working within a couple years.  Screw that!

One thing though--if I wasn't gigging, I'd be completely out of the hardware market other than for a controller (which could actually mean a keyboard if it was the best controller).   I'm all software for sounds at home, have been for many years and there's zero chance that will change.   And because gigging is the reason I have hardware, it means keyboards like the Moog Muse or new Polybrute  aren't a real consideration, as cool as I find them.

 

If I was full on music only as income, gigs, studio work, composing, etc. I'd definitely be more prone to bulk up on a variety of versatile hardware, just like the axe men do ( a friend bass player, pro, has 25 different axes, some for backup, but a lot of them for different palette sounds etc. and a bunch of amps and pres too..). But for where I am in reality, I can find a lot of other things more interesting to spend my day job money on, and frankly I don't have unlimited space either... 

 

[kpl1228]

I'd say a fair amount of it is nostalgia, to get what we once had or (now that we have the means) to get what we drooled over as kids. It's why Mustangs and Camaros and GTOs went retro back in '05. There's a whole bunch of GenX/Boomers that wanted one under their Christmas tree when they were younger, and now could go and get one, and they did by the thousands.

In a lot of ways, at least for me, the OB-X8 might as well be a Corvette. not midlife crisis, but just that I didn't have the money when I was younger to buy an OB-8 or Corvette back in '82. But now not only can I imagine it on my keyboard stand, I can actually make that happen.

I also think that's why, though the OB-X8 is very new, there are so many used ones available. I can picture a guy getting the box from the UPS driver all excitedly, plugging it in and playing Jump or 1999 or Tom Sawyer and feeling 20 again, and within a month, selling it because they got what they wanted out of it.

Every time I drool over the OB-X8 (and I do), I ask myself: what exactly do you plan on doing with this thing? You don't home record, you don't play in a live band that covers a lot of analog synth, so why? I talk myself off of the ledge and buy groceries and pay bills instead.

When the new Moog came out recently, I thought the same pangs of hunger as when the OB-X8 came out. but like when that cool Corvette drives by, I admire it and move on. For now! (haha)

[J.F.N.]

34 minutes ago, kpl1228 said:

I'd say a fair amount of it is nostalgia, to get what we once had or (now that we have the means) to get what we drooled over as kids. It's why Mustangs and Camaros and GTOs went retro back in '05. There's a whole bunch of GenX/Boomers that wanted one under their Christmas tree.

In a lot of ways, at least for me, the OB-X8 might as well be a Corvette. not midlife crisis, but just that I didn't have the money when I was younger to buy an OB-8 or Corvette back in '82.

I also think that's why, though the OB-X8 is very new, there are so many used ones available. I can picture a guy getting the box from the UPS driver all excitedly, plugging it in and playing Jump or 1999 or Tom Sawyer and feeling 20 again, and within a month, selling it because they got what they wanted out of it.

Every time I drool over the OB-X8 (and I do), I ask myself: what exactly do you plan on doing with this thing? You don't home record, you don't play in a live band that covers a lot of analog synth, so why? I talk myself off of the ledge and buy groceries and pay bills instead.

When the new Moog came out recently, I thought the same pangs of hunger as when the OB-X8 came out. but like when that cool Corvette drives by, I admire it and move on. For now! (haha)

 

Definitely, buying "younger self" dreams to fill them holes from back then. This is what I like with the B company, I was always a huge Oberheim fan, Matrix 12 and OB-Xa being on my top 5 favorite old timer synths list, and I had access to them, but never owned them myself.

 

Though there's no way in h$ll I'll spend 5-6 grand on an 8 voice one trick pony, BUT $1200 for 16 of them sweet voices AND a 5 octave poly AT board, yes please!

 

I've done lot's of way more stupid things for $1200, not even taking my greedy ex wife into account here...

 

[cphollis]

I think the appeal of a well-crafted tool is universal.  As long as people want to make music, they'll seek out the best tools for the job.

 

As a keyboard player, we obsess about things like keybed feel, immediacy and feeling connected with our instruments.  It doesn't matter whether they use a 64-bit processor or pump bellows.

 

Like most things in life, a digital recreation ain't the same as the real thing.

[J.F.N.]

6 minutes ago, cphollis said:

I think the appeal of a well-crafted tool is universal.  As long as people want to make music, they'll seek out the best tools for the job.

 

As a keyboard player, we obsess about things like keybed feel, immediacy and feeling connected with our instruments.  It doesn't matter whether they use a 64-bit processor or pump bellows.

 

Like most things in life, a digital recreation ain't the same as the real thing.

 

Definitely that's me thinking, "Why isn't Modartt making the Pianoteq in a half rack module...", which is basically not a big diff from an iPad, but still, Tangible.. and purpose made...

 

 

[Bill H.]

1 hour ago, J.F.N. said:

Definitely, buying "younger self" dreams to fill them holes from back then.

 

One of the reasons I'm not interested in a Polybrute 12. I know it's crazy, but it just doesn't look right and I can't imagine myself using one 40 years ago. I must be losing it in my old age or something...

 

Another reason is that I've found a new obsession that's common with seniors: Travel. I have family in Japan, and I'm finding myself in Tokyo several times a year. There goes my discretionary income 😃

[cassdad]

Yes, I guess that “tangible” is the key word here in this discussion.  If we only had ears, perhaps software would suffice.  But we also have sight and touch.  For eons, craftsman have been creating their works, catering to touch and sight.  Instruments are no different = touch and sight are important, not just the sound.  Of course my keys have to sound great.  But they also have to feel good and look good!  IMO.

[ABECK]

11 minutes ago, cassdad said:

Instruments are no different = touch and sight are important, not just the sound.  Of course my keys have to sound great.  But they also have to feel good and look good!  IMO.

Otherwise, every UI for VSTs would simply be bland with areas to enter values. (some are)  Looking the part def helps.

[Jim Alfredson]

It's purely nostalgia and appeasing the inner-child for me. 

My main axes are the Hammond XK5 or SK Pro through a Leslie 3300 and the Kurzweil Forte or K2700. Those are the boards I actually make money with. The other 60+ synths I own are purely hoarding. I recognize that. And I'm okay with it. I like walking into my studio and being surrounded by cool toys. It's better than drugs.

[zxcvbnm098]

9 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

It's purely nostalgia and appeasing the inner-child for me. 

My main axes are the Hammond XK5 or SK Pro through a Leslie 3300 and the Kurzweil Forte or K2700. Those are the boards I actually make money with. The other 60+ synths I own are purely hoarding. I recognize that. And I'm okay with it. I like walking into my studio and being surrounded by cool toys. It's better than drugs.

Better than drugs indeed......

[Stokely]

Not sure the nostalgia thing totally applies to me    

If you could go back to 1989 or so when I was sequencing on Opcode's vision with a room full of midi gear and showed me a macbook pro running synths, sample libraries and every mixing effect you could ever pine for right inside the laptop, I would have denounced you as a heretic and taken the laptop for myself as the inquisitors dragged you away.    For me, in the box has been such an incredible thing.  Still won't use it live though!  The comment about purpose-made definitely rings true.  I am a hobbyist at home, and I play a professional by night.  I like hitting an on switch and not having to do much thinking.

A studio with gear in his definitely has a vibe, and even a smell (thinking mostly of the old synth labs full of vintage stuff in college, and no it wasn't the unwashed college students).  And an electric bill to go with it!

[marino]

To me, the identification of the physical aspect of an instrument with its sound and workflow is (still) quite strong. I can think of an hardware instrument as a precise identity, with a form, layout, color, even smell - and associate that thought with the sounds I get from it. It's a relationship. I even try to avoid external PSUs, because in my mind they detract from that concept.

In contrast, software feels more immaterial, therefore more impersonal. Software lives inside a different entity, the computer; to me, that gives it a sense of precariousness. Yes, hardware can break, but computers can break too, plus you have to deal with installation, compatibility, host software, OS updates, CPU usage, clashing with other programs, etc.

I like the fact that an hardware instrument is more of a closed world: You can have an one-to-one experience with it.

 

Of course some software sound wonderful and offer more possibilities. I have adopted, without think too much about it, a serendipity approach: If I like a synth (sound, depth, workflow, etc.) I use it, otherwise I discard it, soft or hard. A practical example: For a couple of years, I was forced to use Massive to teach synthesis in school, and I hated every minute of it. When I was able to switch to Surge, it was another planet.

For some reason, generally I'm not too crazy about software clones of old synths. Yes, there are hundreds of them around and it's wrong to generalize too much... but it seems that as I get older, I can perceive the differences a bit better. Sometimes it's difficult to point a finger at the actual causes, but I have really paid attention to this aspect, and I think it's not psychological, or at least not completely!  For example, when I tried Arturia's Matrix-12V, I was shaking my head in disappointment.

 

That said, I can see more music software in my future; it's not likely that I will buy much more hardware, simply for economic and space reasons.

 

 

[kpl1228]

Agreed with so many on this question. When you play live, a tactile, real, honest-to-goodness keyboard matters. Just because the sounds are available on our phones is hardly the point. It's why you usually don't see drummers just playing with trigger pads.

[BluesB3]

Not a synth guy so I can't relate. VST's sound useful on stage and in the studio but I'm a hardware guy.

 

The Electro and the CP73 are useful tools for gigging, but I really enjoy the feel and sound of my 200A. I miss my B3 and I've been jonesing for an A100 but I haven't found the right price and the right geographical location yet. I've still got my RoK's and my 145 if I come across the right one.