Complexity at the price of musicality?

[AROIOS]

I've only enjoyed Collier's Gospel Jazz phase and tend to agree with this video, with the small nit that it's not "creativity" that's lost in Collier's complexity, but "musicality" (or "soul", or "emotion", or whatever makes the hair on your back stand).

What's your take?

 

 

[Docbop]

When it comes to Jacob Collier I grew tired of him fast.   I say he is the perfect example of....  Because you can, doesn't mean you should.       The times I've enjoy JC is when he was doing solo shows looping things and had to keep it simpler.   Then the times I've heard him play with others and again having to scale back and keep it musical. 

 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Common debate.  
 

music is only as complex as the listener finds it.  
 

music is only as “musical”, beautiful, annoying, grating, amazing, intriguing as the listener finds it.  
 

perception is a very personal psychological experience that’s unique to each of us and affected by physics, biology, past experience, etc.  

 

when we’ve chatted on things we like/don’t like about music we get camps.  Less is more, too many notes, how can less be more? more is more!, classical is boring, jazz is sterile, if it’s not bebop it’s not jazz, that’s not music, now that’s music, it’s all derivative, that’s just noise, I prefer music that’s more virile…

 

Check out JC’s live shows that are streaming.   He has built a camp - they are fascinated with what he makes, moved by it, in awe of it, and participate in it.  For me, I find I prefer watching+listening to a live set.  His material doesn’t make my playlists often.  But I have students that are big fans.  
 

 

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

...Check out JC’s live shows that are streaming.   He has built a camp - they are fascinated with what he makes, moved by it, in awe of it, and participate in it...

 

This feels like an A.I. generated late 80's TOTO concert. It's not bad at all, just kinda soulless for lack of a better description.

[CEB]

Don’t know the artist.   But the video sounds like an extension of age old arguments seemingly supported by those lacking knowledge that proposes, ‘knowledge and chops are bad’.  This is utter horseshit.   

[CrossRhodes]

Collier seems to be as polarizing as that Beato guy. He’s a talented young artist who has already accomplished more than most and seems to have a real passion and joy for making music. A lot of his music isn’t my cup of tea but I respect his musical mind and am interested to see how he grows as an artist.

[johnchop]

+1 to CrossRhodes sentiment.

 

Chops and ears and harmonic sensibilities of the highest order, and there’s something interesting going on in the sort of frenetic presentation of it all.

I can’t quite connect with his vocal timbre, but his enthusiasm and love for music is infectious. He’s quite generous in sharing his process and ideas, too. Good bloke.

 

As for the topic of this thread, I was pondering the same the other day. Why does it feel like some folks output too-hip-for-the-room hyper-noodling, while others drive fast around a lot of tight corners but you still enjoy the ride?

 

Still haven’t figured that out, so just adopting  “Enh, I just dig it” reasoning.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

This feels like an A.I. generated late 80's TOTO concert. It's not bad at all, just kinda soulless for lack of a better description.

The point I was trying to make was that this is your perception - in fact your description is an excellent example of your very own stained glass window with which you filter the world.  Mine is different, and others may be similar or drastically different from the both of us.   And that’s awesome.  
 

Regardless of wether one enjoys JC’s music or not - I think the coolest thing about the guy is that he’s succeeded in building an international audience of fans and he isn’t making anything like what’s on the billboard top 10.  

[ProfD]

It's not easy to build a following and make a living in the music business outside the mainstream.

 

Artists and musicians who can play music on their own terms and still get paid are very lucky.😎

[AROIOS]

38 minutes ago, johnchop said:

...Why does it feel like some folks output too-hip-for-the-room hyper-noodling, while others drive fast around a lot of tight corners but you still enjoy the ride?

Music is an intricate balancing act like cooking. Too much of any ingredient/flavor, and it quickly overwhelms.

[JoJoB3]

8 hours ago, AROIOS said:

I've only enjoyed Collier's Gospel Jazz phase and tend to agree with this video, with the small nit that it's not "creativity" that's lost in Collier's complexity, but "musicality" (or "soul", or "emotion", or whatever makes the hair on your back stand).

What's your take?

 

 

I'm not a huge fan either but to elude he has no talent is ridiculous.  JFC, these kind of videos are garbage.

[JamPro]

There must be something wrong with me: I couldn't sit thru even five minutes of the OP's video offering.  My goal is to play more and better music.  Towards that goal, I have no time or patience for hearing what critics have to say about Jacob Collier.

 

My take on music theory: you only need it if you work with other musicians, and/or hope to get them to play whatever music you are making.

 

 

[CEB]

You need music theory. In fact you have music theory even if you don’t know you have it. 

[Tusker]

I don't love everything Jacob Collier does, but how do you call this too complex?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ABECK]

HA - FWIW, before clicking on this, based on the topic title the first thing that came to my mind was  Collier.  I fell in and out of love with his work fast.  Super talented, no doubt, but too much of it comes across like musical ADD to me.  He's in a different league of musical knowledge than me, so at times I feel like he's speaking a language my brain just isn't designed to appreciate.

[ProfD]

Phenoms like Jacob Collier, Cory Henry, Joey Alexander and Justin Lee Schulz to name a few have always existed. 

 

I remember when a young man by the name of Jordan Rudess burst onto the scene several decades ago.  KB magazine featured him.

 

Technology has shrunk the globe in terms of what we can see and hear in terms of talent from around the world.

 

Otherwise, before the internet, we may not have heard about these musicians unless they ended up in a band.

 

Most phenomenal musicians end up working behind the scenes in the music industry as music producers, film/TV composers, session musicians, educators, etc. 

 

Only a few of the ultra-baddest musicians on the planet bubble up to enjoy mainstream notoriety, fame and success.😎

[ElmerJFudd]

14 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Phenoms like Jacob Collier, Cory Henry, Joey Alexander and Justin Lee Schulz to name a few have always existed. 

 

I remember when a young man by the name of Jordan Rudess burst onto the scene several decades ago.  KB magazine featured him.

 

Technology has shrunk the globe in terms of what we can see and hear in terms of talent from around the world.

 

Otherwise, before the internet, we may not have heard about these musicians unless they ended up in a band.

 

Most phenomenal musicians end up working behind the scenes in the music industry as music producers, film/TV composers, session musicians, educators, etc. 

 

Only a few of the ultra-baddest musicians on the planet bubble up to enjoy mainstream notoriety, fame and success.😎

Quite true.  Self publishing and distribution via social media has made it evident that there are people devoting a considerable % of their lives to learning how to play instruments and producing their own music.  We have access to more music makers than ever before.  They are no longer cultivated by a record company.  So we sort through the lot ourselves.   As they garner more plays, more likes, more followers the algorithms kick in and push them out to an even wider audience.  A corporation may take notice and back them with real cash for an advertising blitz and performance opportunities. 

[analogika]

15 hours ago, CEB said:

Don’t know the artist.   But the video sounds like an extension of age old arguments seemingly supported by those lacking knowledge that proposes, ‘knowledge and chops are bad’.  This is utter horseshit.   

 

This was the first thing I saw of him: 

 

Given that he'd uploaded his first stuff at like 15, was 19 at this point — it's completely irrelevant what I might have to offer in the way of criticism. The man is obviously brilliant.

 

I don't have to like everything somebody does — and I don't — to appreciate talent. 

 

I do find some of the things that grow out of his extremely complex harmonic approaches to be stunningly beautiful, and he occasionally floors me when he hits me in the right mood. 

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

I don't love everything Jacob Collier does, but how do you call this too complex?

 

Exactly. There are many examples of JC's work that belie the "too compex" description. I was gonna search them out and post links, then I thought – why bother? IMO, with jazz-influenced pop music like what JC does, there's a psychology to some folks' negative reactions seeing an artist enjoying success and attention doing something close to their world but beyond their own skill set or understanding. Is it discomfiting seeing so many other people seeming to "get it" when you don't? Easy, just claim it's "without soul" or "feeling" because of course all that "theory" can't help but take the "soul" out, right? Jeez. In almost every JC youtube there are multiple comments from listeners brought to tears. Some of these vocal coaches that post "reaction" videos are brought to tears. https://youtu.be/W34CvrTUGqM?t=720 (and that's just for his singing, something a lot of people seem to have a problem with!). Sure, no feeling or soul there.

 

I'm not here to police what others should feel as they listen to music. If someone is brought to tears hearing Kenny G circular breathe a note for 10 minutes, great! My point is that when I hear music containing elements I may not understand but a lot of other people seem to get, I don't take it personally! I can appreciate anybody saying of JC "he's got talent but it's not my thing", but the "too compex...lacks soul/feeling" line is bullshit, imo.

[Geoff Grace]

For me, Collier is hit and miss. Here are my two favorites by him:

 

 

 

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Theo Verelst]

He's certainly not my thing, which could be cheap like complaining I've only 600 YT members and about 120,000 views of my own, so he can ride waves I don't. Seriously I don't think he's overburdened by theory as such, but suffers from the same indecisiveness syndrome as a lot of non A grade modern artists, mainly because it seems nice that all these (software) tools allow us to do things the old studios did, but digital is still rather flawed.

 

T

[MathOfInsects]

I don't spend a lot of time listening to him, but it's hard for me to find the downside to his particular brand of genius. May we all be so "complex" some day. 

 

Anyway, complexity and musicality are not opposites. Plenty of brilliant music is complex, and plenty of simplistic sounds are atrocious. There are plenty of chops-monsters just wanking their way over anything they find, but that doesn't mean chops are bad, just that they are. Same with Miles D wannabes who get themselves off by playing long tones and thinking they are channeling Lordamighty when all they're doing is peeing all over a perfectly good groove. 

 

Music is music. Just because something might be beyond our reach technically or knowledge-wise, doesn't mean it's pretentious or wanky. It just means there's a new language out there for us potentially to learn someday. 

[Geoff Grace]

21 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Anyway, complexity and musicality are not opposites.

Agreed. I do think that complexity can be used in a way that undermines the vibe of a song, for example shredding a solo when it would be better to simply quote the melody; but complexity in and of itself is not unmusical.
 

I love complex music. Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring is a masterpiece. 
 

Best,

 

Geoff

[marino]

To me, musicality has nothing to do with complexity per se: Musicality, or creativity, is about what the musician has to say. The means of expression that he uses can vary wildly. I could name dozens of very complex music pieces which touch my soul very deeply... Ligeti's "Atmospheres", Genesis' "Supper's Ready", Strawinsky's "Rite of Spring", Beethoven's "Hammerklavier Sonata", Indian Ragas, Coltrane's long modal solos... on the other hand, a simple deeply felt song can hit me with the same intensity. Probably, slightly different zones of the spirit and brain are stimulated... but I see them as different dialects of the same language.

[AROIOS]

5 hours ago, ABECK said:

...but too much of it comes across like musical ADD to me...

That's a great description of some of his busier stuff.

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

Phenoms like Jacob Collier, Cory Henry, Joey Alexander and Justin Lee Schulz to name a few have always existed. 

 

I remember when a young man by the name of Jordan Rudess burst onto the scene several decades ago....

Yup, Rudess is another usual suspect in discussions like this.

It's interesting how Cory, Joey and Justin don't seem to elicit similar polarized reaction though. I for one have never sensed "complexity over musicality" on their stuff.

[JoJoB3]

Rudess has far too many side affects and is often used as a sleep aid.

Science has come a long way now in delivering actual relief for those suffering Colliers - relief that works!  Take 3 of these and don't call anyone.
 

 

[AROIOS]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

... Is it discomfiting seeing so many other people seeming to "get it" when you don't? Easy, just claim it's "without soul" or "feeling" because of course all that "theory" can't help but take the "soul" out, right? Jeez...

...My point is that when I hear music containing elements I may not understand but a lot of other people seem to get, I don't take it personally!...

That's a lot of straw man and hot steam for a light-hearted Youtube video. 😃

I don't usually see this side of you, Reezekeys. It's interesting how easily folks get worked up over topics about a few usual suspects like Jordan Rudess, Lachy Doley, Rick Beato, and Jacob Collier; while similar figures like Cory Henry and Justin Lee Schultz don't elicit nearly as much controversy. It must make for a great research paper in Music Psychology.

[mate stubb]

JS Bach.  Complex.  Musical.

[analogika]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

My point is that when I hear music containing elements I may not understand but a lot of other people seem to get, I don't take it personally! 

 

Oh, I do take it personally! I want to "get it", if something obviously has merit. 

 

I see it as an inspiration to learn about it. At least, eventually. I may not get around to everything in this lifetime. But there's a list.