Advice on the Tall & Fat pedal and/or Organ Grinder.

[Paul Henry]

I'm using a Nord Stage 3 compact and running it through a 145 Franken Leslie with non-stock speakers and a Mark Bass 250 head.

While it sounds good, it's only about 80% there. I do not play out with this I only use this to jam with folks at my practice/jam space.

The OD of the Nord to my ears just adds noise but not a nice warm OD.

I'm not looking for the Jon Lord sound just hoping to make it a bit less digital sounding.

The Tall & Fat and/or the Organ Grinder seem like the pedals of choice for the task.

What are you folks using, and what do you suggest would work best for me given my situation? (I don't need Stereo)

Thanks

Paul

[cphollis]

Like you say, the NS3 can get you 80% of the way.  Just make sure you're using both distortion FX as the preamp distortion can modulate the power amp distortion with a few nice sweet spots.  All the digital overdrives sound the same to me, so if I was doing something external, it'd be a high powered tube design to get "that sound".  Also $$$.

[Baldwin Funster]

I got both pedals.  In the end I don't really use them. For me, what was added wasn't worth the extra setup of cables and power. They are tools in the tool box like some star tip screwdriver for a tail light assembly on a Mercedes. I might use it again someday but not anytime soon.

[Delaware Dave]

I bought a tall and fat a couple of years ago to warm up the top octave of VB3, it was shrill through everything except a real leslie and my old keyboard amp.  It didnt fix the shrillness, nor did it add any noticeable warmth. It did add saturation/crunch but that wasnt what i was looking for.  I sold it and dont miss it at all.  Instead I reduced the 2KHz on my mixers EQ (EQ used solely on the organ channel) and that had more impact than any other solution.

 

[SteveNathan]

I’d suggest.neither. Put your money into a better warmer tube head and hit the tubes hard. 

[Paul Henry]

Thank you all for your input. I guess it is what it is for now. You guys saved me the trouble of buying and being disappointed with the results.

That's why we are here. And I saved $400 to boot.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

9 minutes ago, Paul Henry said:

Thank you all for your input. I guess it is what it is for now. You guys saved me the trouble of buying and being disappointed with the results.

That's why we are here. And I saved $400 to boot.

 

For $400 (used) or less a neo ventilator has I think still the best 6550 tube sounding leslie overdrive available. Even better than plugins. And the rotary effect isn't bad either.

[funkyhammond]

6 hours ago, Paul Henry said:

Thank you all for your input. I guess it is what it is for now. You guys saved me the trouble of buying and being disappointed with the results.

That's why we are here. And I saved $400 to boot.

 

 

Just to be clear, you're not looking to run the Nord organ straight into monitors, you're just trying to improve the sound of the Nord organ going into your modded Leslie 145 setup, correct? With the original 40W tube amp? You say it's 80% of the way there. Can you describe what is lacking?

 

The signal from the Nord should be totally clean. If you are trying to use the Nord OD to add something to the signal going into that Leslie setup then you are going about it wrong. You need to make sure your preamp is giving you a strong, relatively clean signal going into the Leslie amp so that it can drive the tubes and then turning up the Leslie volume knob will go from quiet and clean to loud and starting to overdrive to more and more overdrive with no real further gain in volume. After you have that dialed in you can then experiment with also adding more drive from the preamp to see how that changes the sound.

 

If you were also looking to run the Nord organ through just monitors, then that's when you might look at a pedal if you don't like the Nord rotary/OD. You could try an experiment for free just as a test to see if you think a better digital rotary would make enough difference. If you have a Mac/iPad/PC and audio interface, you could download the IK Multimedia manager software and then a trial demo of their superb Leslie plugin and try running the Nord organ dry through that (with a DAW or plugin host app). If that Leslie sim still sounds lacking, then any pedal like a Vent or whatever won't be much different. 

[John Tweed]

I bought a t&f back when I was using a Mojo. It seemed to add something to the sound,  but since the Mojo didn’t have an effects loop it was only really useful at home through my Leslie or into a Vent. Subsequently I used it a lot between my SK1 and Vent -  the SK straight into the Vent could easily overload it, but with the t&f in between it was less of a problem.

 

The reason I stopped using it is because whenever I got the distortion level right, it reduced the overall volume coming out, or if I tried to maintain the volume then there was too much distortion. I was expecting an overdrive pedal to increase the level, if anything. 

 

Since this is how it worked with the Legend Live I never used it with that. Now that I have the Soul I plan to try it out again, but I expect the results to be much the same. I fear it’s destined to join my other extraneous bits n pieces waiting till I can be bothered to sell it.

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

The signal from the Nord should be totally clean.

 

If you're trying to emulate a real B3 going into that Leslie, I don't think you want it totally clean... at least, not when you have the pedal floored. The B3 itself has tubes in it, and is not sending a totally clean signal when you're driving it at full volume. (At least that's always been my understanding. I've never played an actual tube Hammond that was not connected to a Leslie.)

[CEB]

I know you said you don’t play out but a future reader might …

 

I have played Electros and Stages.  I understand complaints about Nord organs sounding too polite/clean. But my experience of hearing Nord organs through FOH at double bill or festival shows I’ve done is that Nords sound really good through front of house.  They work really well. But that is just me.   

[elif]

13 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

Just to be clear, you're not looking to run the Nord organ straight into monitors, you're just trying to improve the sound of the Nord organ going into your modded Leslie 145 setup, correct? With the original 40W tube amp? You say it's 80% of the way there. Can you describe what is lacking?

The OP says its a 250W Mark Bass head.

[KRK]

On 6/30/2024 at 8:29 PM, SteveNathan said:

I’d suggest.neither. Put your money into a better warmer tube head and hit the tubes hard. 

that's it 👍

 

Tall & Fat and Organ grinder, both sound great...
but the real tube amped leslie has THAT exact sound you need 😁

 

but... not easy to find a tube amp/head sounding as a 142/145/147/122 one.
usually guitar heads cut frequencies...
so we are back to a full range amp/head and a pedal 🤣

 

some examples of mine:
Lounsberry ORGAN GRINDER & Hammond NewB3 

Hammond B3 - Lounsberry Organ Grinder - Viscount Vortex

Lounsberry Pedals - TALL & FAT / Hammond C3 

ROCK Hammond Organ (Speakeasy AMA 122 & Organ Drive) 

MOOER Little Monster BM with Hammond Organ & TORNADO Rotary Cabinet

 

this one sounds great too!

 

🍻🍻🍻🍻

[Konnector]

Haven't tried the T&F, but I do have an Organ Grinder and original Vent. The OG pedal will take you to 11 and beyond for distortion, but in subtle amounts it adds some added bite to the Vent that otherwise isn't there. Depends on what you're looking for of course. I like a fairly overdriven organ - Sometimes to the extreme for certain things. I don't gig these days so my use is for recording purposes only. It gives me another option along with using plugins.

 

These days B3X, VB3, SoundToys, amp sims, etc. get more use because of the sheer convenience,  but the Hammond clone/OG/Vent still provides another flavour option if I want to go there.  

[eric]

There's a lot you can do to boost the NS3 organ sound before it gets to the speaker or Leslie or Vent (I use a Vent live). Try these settings.

 

Ignore the internal rotary stuff if you're routing to a Leslie. I like to have this stuff dialed in on the rare occasion I need to use the NS3 rotary as a backup. I just save the settings and turn off the rotary sim. The real magic is in the EQ and compression.

 

Type: vintage 2
Click: high
trigger: high
rotary: 122 close
Bass/Horn: 40/60 or 30/70 (more horn)
Rotary speed: Normal
Acc: Normal
Horn speed: normal
Acc: SLOW

Rotary Drive: 3.5 (edit to taste)
Compressor: 8 w/ Fast Attack
Reverb: Stage 1 level: 2.8 or however you like it

Amp Sim/EQ Section:
----------------------
Amp sim: off/clean
Treble: 6.5
Mid: Freq: 635 level: -3
Drive: 0
Bass: 10.5

[Paul Henry]

17 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

Just to be clear, you're not looking to run the Nord organ straight into monitors, you're just trying to improve the sound of the Nord organ going into your modded Leslie 145 setup, correct? With the original 40W tube amp? You say it's 80% of the way there. Can you describe what is lacking?

 

The signal from the Nord should be totally clean. If you are trying to use the Nord OD to add something to the signal going into that Leslie setup then you are going about it wrong. You need to make sure your preamp is giving you a strong, relatively clean signal going into the Leslie amp so that it can drive the tubes and then turning up the Leslie volume knob will go from quiet and clean to loud and starting to overdrive to more and more overdrive with no real further gain in volume. After you have that dialed in you can then experiment with also adding more drive from the preamp to see how that changes the sound.

 

If you were also looking to run the Nord organ through just monitors, then that's when you might look at a pedal if you don't like the Nord rotary/OD. You could try an experiment for free just as a test to see if you think a better digital rotary would make enough difference. If you have a Mac/iPad/PC and audio interface, you could download the IK Multimedia manager software and then a trial demo of their superb Leslie plugin and try running the Nord organ dry through that (with a DAW or plugin host app). If that Leslie sim still sounds lacking, then any pedal like a Vent or whatever won't be much different. 

No my 145 is using a 250w Mark Bass head so no tubes there. I will not be using this setup with monitor speakers just farting around with the Leslie in the studio for jamming.

 

A little more info for you: I am using outputs 1&2 for all sounds other than Organ. The Organ is sent to output 3 direct to the 145 with the Mark Bass amp that is built in.. This only works when the Leslie SIM is turned off/disabled so I can't use the OD effect of the Leslie SIM.

I did just try noodling with the EQ to try and get the high end shrill out of the top octave. there a a couple of notes there that will make you ears bleed if I'm not careful. I'm sure that using a 145 tube amp would straighten things out but that's never going to happen.

[funkyhammond]

Right, ok, sorry, I know little about bass heads and wasn't sure if maybe it had a preamp out and was being used just as a preamp. Clearly not. 

 

Anyway, even stock solid state Leslies will sound different than tube Leslies. I think they are most often used for jazz and gospel and some people will add a tube preamp to those. As others have said, try playing with EQ and compression. Otherwise, a tube head might help. Maybe you can borrow or rent one to try out to see if that will make a significant difference for your setup. You can also try researching past posts on this forum and on organ forums on using an external amp head with a Leslie cabinet (for organ not for guitar). 

 

Be aware that a stock tube Leslie amp has very particular characteristics because of the design of the amp and the specific tubes used (the 6550's are a big part of the sound but not the only part). If you're just trying to make your setup sound less thin/shrill and have more body and warmth, then a tube head might help. If you're trying to get it to specifically sound like a tube Leslie then you might be out of luck without an actual 145 tube amp. Also, having an aftermarket horn driver can also noticeably change the sound. I've only ever owned stock drivers but I have read forum posts in the past where people complained about the sound of certain aftermarket drivers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[elif]

On 6/30/2024 at 9:55 AM, Paul Henry said:

I'm using a Nord Stage 3 compact and running it through a 145 Franken Leslie with non-stock speakers and a Mark Bass 250 head.

What horn driver are you running in that Franken Leslie?

[Paul Henry]

10 hours ago, elif said:

What horn driver are you running in that Franken Leslie?

This Leslie came with what looked like an Atlas PD-5 in it although there were no markings on it and it OHM'd out at 4ohms so who knows.

I wanted an 8 ohm driver and woofer to match the new Mark Bass power amp so I tried several top drivers from Amazon just because of the easy return policy.

This Leslie was "free" but did not come with the 145 tube amp, the stock Xover, the stock speakers. Just a basic box with the motors.

I used the Mark Bass Amp for power, a Fishsticks motor controller box, a Skar PD-1 top driver, a 800Hz crossover, and a new 8ohm 15" speaker.

Now I have what I have knowing that it was a crap shoot for what it would ultimately sound like, I have about $950 into as of now and that's acceptable.

After adjusting the EQ a bit more I'm liking the tone better. It was never meant to be used with a real Hammond so that's the direction I took this project. 

It was just fun to have a spinning speaker in my studio to play with after over 50 years without one.

[funkyhammond]

3 hours ago, Paul Henry said:

 

After adjusting the EQ a bit more I'm liking the tone better. It was never meant to be used with a real Hammond so that's the direction I took this project. 

 

Hopefully someone else can chime in about the specific horn driver. Regardless, one of the tricks I use with some digital organs is to roll off some highs to reduce shrillness but then add more key click to get some definition back in the attack of the notes. Also, not using a real Hammond is not a reason not to have a good Leslie.  I've seen plenty of examples of people gigging with a digital organ but a physical Leslie.

 

The particular slow growl you can get fading in and out on a tube Leslie on slow/chorale is a sound I totally love. This video I just found shows what you can do with the gain of the preamp on a B3 (or any console Hammond). The slow growl I like is actually right when he hits the notes before he starts turning the screw. (I just thought I'd show this as a reference example of a typical sound of a B3 into a stock Leslie.)

 

 

 

 

[elif]

On 7/2/2024 at 7:51 AM, Paul Henry said:

I used the Mark Bass Amp for power, a Fishsticks motor controller box, a Skar PD-1 top driver, a 800Hz crossover, and a new 8ohm 15" speaker.

The horn driver is much more efficient than the 15".  You might try an 8-ohm L-pad between the x-over and the horn.

[Paul Henry]

1 hour ago, elif said:

The horn driver is much more efficient than the 15".  You might try an 8-ohm L-pad between the x-over and the horn.

The 8 Ohm Xover I am using has that capability built in, I'll check that again to see where I set it for the horn.

Thanks

Paul

[Paul Henry]

22 hours ago, Paul Henry said:

The 8 Ohm Xover I am using has that capability built in, I'll check that again to see where I set it for the horn.

Thanks

Paul

It was set at 0 so It dropped the horn setting down -3db and that seemed to help the horn to woofer ratio.

EQing also did a good job of taming the shrillness.

I believe that an Organ Grinder would warn things up a bit but at this point I'll keep the $200 in my pocket.