Lightweight semi-weighteds: CK61, CT-S500, Liano

[AnotherScott]

There has been a good bit of discussion lately about lightweight boards that might be suitable for piano, and the Yamaha CK61, Korg Liano, and Casio CT-S500 (and others in its family) have come up as especially light and compact choices. Not wanting to (further) derail any of the threads specific to those boards (or post in multiple places), I  figured I'd just start a new thread to deal with them as a group, for possible further discussion of comparisons. Attached is a chart I put together, I think I've got the details right, boards ordered by weight...

 

[MPN21]

Thanks for the chart.  My CT-S500 will arrive on Tuesday.   I didn't even know it is equipped with BLE MIDi and an expression pedal input!    As for the Liano, I understand  it is available in 6 colors, but most vendors have only black.      

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Thanks mate i will follow this thread with great interest. Always love your findings.

 

The Liano has always interested me since its premature announcement due purely to its low physical weight.

[The Piano Man]

Has anyone compared the Liano to the Yamaha NP range? If so, what were your thoughts on keyboard action and piano sound?

 

I have a Yamaha NP32 and it’s a handy tool but the narrow keys are a frustration and I do find myself struggling to control the touch response sometimes. That is, a note will sometimes sound too loudly etc.

[Adan]

I don't think you have a line for key textured, but the Casio does have textured keys and the others don't? Which for me makes a difference for piano playing.

 

I've never been able to get into a real comfort zone playing piano on the CK-61, due to the action and the smaller key size. And yes, I've made adjustments to velocity and offset, which definitely helped but still doesn't get me there. That's the main reason my CK remains a rehearsal board, almost never a performance board. when I've gigged with it, it's been as an organ controller for B3X with internal organ standing by as backup.

 

Liano looks interesting, but the lack of 1/4 outputs, speakers turning off when 1/8 line out is used, and 88 keys are significant negative points.  88 keys somewhat tends to cancel out the advantages of a lightweight board.

 

I generally don't have a big problem playing piano on a 61.  It's an adjustment but not a deal breaker. For some people, less than 73 or less than 88 is a deal breaker.

 

The Casio is a board I'd like to try out. Other 61 note Casios I've tried had a decent semi-weighted action with nice textured keys.

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, MPN21 said:

As for the Liano, I understand  it is available in 6 colors, but most vendors have only black.      

3 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

I have a Yamaha NP32 and it’s a handy tool but the narrow keys are a frustration

1 hour ago, Adan said:

I don't think you have a line for key textured, but the Casio does have textured keys and the others don't? Which for me makes a difference for piano playing.

 

Some more possible good additions to the chart there... Liano is available in multiple colors (at least theoretically!), and CK61 keys are slightly narrower than full width (though the latter could also be seen as part of why its piano playability ranking is lower, I'll get back to that). And yes, different key textures. Maybe I should have made the chart a live link instead of a screenshot so it could be updated... though OTOH having a fixed reference for discussion may be less confusing. At some point, maybe I'll post either an update, or a live link.

 

Personally, having played Yamaha non-hammer boards for years, I've never been as disturbed by the slightly narrow width as some people are... but also, I've almost always used them as "tops" and pretty rarely played pianos on them. I wonder if the narrow width is one reason I've never really liked playing piano on them in general. Piano playing can involve two hand playing with a lot of motion, and I could see where that could lead to more accuracy issues on smaller keys, compared to when playing one-handed and/or more static parts.

 

As far as the textures go, yes that can affect piano playability too, it changes the friction. The CK61 keys can feel kind of "sticky", fingers don't glide as well. Interestingly, the LIano keys feel much better, though in terms of design, it's splitting the difference... white keys are glossy, black keys are textured. (The black keys are also noticeably longer than on the other two boards, which I think contributes to its piano-like characteristic.) The Casio, as pointed out, is textured for both the black and white keys.

 

In other action comparison, the Casio is the one whose keys most noticeably get more resistant toward the rear, and has the keys that are arguably the most stiffly sprung of the three, but it somehow remains well playable... though pianissimo does suffer a bit. The stiffly sprung aspect is hard to fully quantify in a ranking here (the reason I used the word "arguably")... yes, it pushes back the most (though still less than numerous other boards), but OTOH, the CK61 has an initial resistance that is greater but gives way after you press further, which one could conceivably see as either a positive or negative (it's reminiscent of an escapement bump). I think we're getting into subtleties that will be hard to concisely chart... but that's the benefit of this additional discussion as well. For charting purposes, maybe these action attributes are best summed up in that single piano playability ranking!

 

3 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

Has anyone compared the Liano to the Yamaha NP range? If so, what were your thoughts on keyboard action and piano sound?

 

I had an NP-30, and in the day, I thought it was one of the better choices for those who must play piano from a non-hammer action. Action-wise, IIRC, its keys are more piano-shaped than CK61 (or most other Yamaha non-hammer boards), and less curved edges probably aid in not accidentally hitting a wrong key on the way to or from the right one, and it did seem to have better control of dynamics than typical non-hammer boards. Interestingly, it was graded, but not with weights, but rather with varying amount of resistance from the rubber contacts beneath the keys. But I suspect it might have worked better if they had not bothered with grading, but maybe made all the keys as resistant as the bottom keys were. I have the opposite feeling about the current hammer action YC88/CP88... I think I'd like them better if they made all the keys as light as the highest keys are, they at least get too heavy feeling for me toward the bottom, plus the extra weights on the low keys just makes the board heavier too. But back to the NP30, back then, I kind of gave it props for working at all, piano-wise, but I, too, never felt it to be satisfying enough to really be tempted to gig with it as my piano board. Plus the lack of a 5-pin MIDI jack was even more of an impediment back then than it is today. It's still a nuisance on today's boards, but there are more ways around it, between the availability of stand-alone USB host devices, CME's WIDI bluetooth adapters, and the increased iPad usages.

 

To your other question, I did like the NP-30 piano sound at the time. I'm not sure how I'd compare it to today's offerings. But I have high confidence that I'd find the Liano preferable as a piano, in both action/playability and sound.

 

1 hour ago, Adan said:

I've never been able to get into a real comfort zone playing piano on the CK-61, due to the action and the smaller key size. And yes, I've made adjustments to velocity and offset, which definitely helped but still doesn't get me there.

 

I'm in the same place there. I was glad to find the velocity adjustments which helped a lot, and also I think adjusting the on-board EQ helped me adjust the sound so it seemed more responsive, but for whatever combination of reasons, I've never quite gotten there with playing piano on that board, and since I have options I'm already happier with, I've given up on trying. If I'm not taking a hammer board, my piano will be either the Liano or the Casio, which are both much more satisfying than the CK as piano boards. Between those two, if I basically only need piano and rhodes from my bottom board (where everything else will come from a second board or an iPad), Liano works. If I need more from it, or want something smaller/lighter than the 88-key Liano, I'd choose the Casio. (Though I should qualify that by saying I have actually gigged with the CK61 and Liano as my piano boards, and I don't think I've actually yet gigged with the Casio as a "bottom" -- and you never know anything for certain until you battle-test it!)

 

 

 

 

 

[D. Gauss]

As an owner of both the Casio and the Yammy, i find myself preferring the Yamaha, firstly for the piano sound itself, and then ease of use/features. (full disclosure, i bought the ck-61 used, paying almost the same price for the Casio and Yamaha.).

The CK-61 interface is bonehead simple, the piano sounds great, and you can hook an iphone up to it with one cord and play drawbar controlled b3 on your lap in your back yard.. Biggest gripe about the Casio is not being able to name anything. Doh!   

 

PSA:  the Casio BLE midi works great and is the only 1 of the 3 that has it. However, easy peasy to do the same for the other two.  Buy on one these from China and wait 2 weeks for it to come. Super cheap (13 bucks), and they work great. I have several them.

 

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803321002803.html?src=google&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&albcp=19235666539&albag=&trgt=&crea=en3256803321002803&netw=x&device=c&albpg=&albpd=en3256803321002803&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwq86wBhDiARIsAJhuphmd6zxL0V4W1FBxNOwIC_dXIGJR4lq5if5aiCbWeEb8_rnM17N0qXUaAnnSEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&aff_fcid=66f0a2e3fe484a2781c7cf9c7fb4e962-1712583179512-07724-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=66f0a2e3fe484a2781c7cf9c7fb4e962-1712583179512-07724-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=f20ebd4d2ada4c26a2cad7908a604d9c&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

 

 

[Stokely]

Too light!  Seriously, I've found that I need a bit more heft than something like my modx7, which weighs more than any of these   Otherwise they feel like they'll come off the stand.  

However--good to have options for everyone!  We know the heavy side is more than covered!

[cphollis]

I can turn into a heavy-handed beast when I get going.  I'd be worried I'd snap one of these like a twig ...

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

As an owner of both the Casio and the Yammy, i find myself preferring the Yamaha, firstly for the piano sound itself, and then ease of use/features. (full disclosure, i bought the ck-61 used, paying almost the same price for the Casio and Yamaha.).

The CK-61 interface is bonehead simple, the piano sounds great, and you can hook an iphone up to it with one cord and play drawbar controlled b3 on your lap in your back yard.. Biggest gripe about the Casio is not being able to name anything. Doh!   

 

Likewise, I have and enjoy both, and there's no doubt there are many things the Yamaha does better. But I stopped putting effort into getting its acoustic piano to sound and play the way I liked, when I had other boards where I was perfectly content to just turn them on and play. Certainly, if somebody has more extensive needs to be filled from the single board that the CK can address better than the Casio, and/or don't have the luxury of choosing different boards for subtly different needs, it could be well worth putting max effort into the CK61's piano... or, I'm sure, some people are perfectly fine with it as it is or with easy/minor tweaking. And the CK's ease with which you can create a modified sound or split/layered combination of sounds and/or tweak these things during live performance is virtually unparalleled. I've said before, I even see it as a poor man's Nord Stage! If I needed to create a versatile 2-board rig that was as light and compact as possible, the combination of the CT-S500 and CK61 would probably be my pick.

 

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Too light!  Seriously, I've found that I need a bit more heft than something like my modx7, which weighs more than any of these   Otherwise they feel like they'll come off the stand.  

 

That can be an issue, especially for aggressive organ maneuvers where there can be a lot of side-to-side force applied to the board. I haven't had to resort to this myself, but if need be, I'd velcro the board to the stand. My K&M 18880 stand has square rather than round support arms, which increases surface tension, which is good by itself, but also gives you a good velcro surface if need be.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

Biggest gripe about the Casio is not being able to name anything. Doh!   

 

Oh, meant to reply about not being able to name registrations, and forgot. Yeah, it's an unfortunate omission. But not insurmountable. Three solutions... paper under the buttons (useful for usages up to 20 registrations), paper on the right (useful to show all 64), iPad Mini on the right (scrollable, re-orderable, and sends the appropriate MIDI Program Change when tapped).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Piano Man]

These forums are bad for my gas.

 

Have just bought a Korg Liano to go with my Grandstage and XE20. 
 

20 years ago when I first started gigging, I would have never guessed I would become such a Korg fan when acoustic piano sounds has been my primary consideration. The latest Korgs are, in my view, incredibly competitive on acoustic piano sounds.

[D. Gauss]

22 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Oh, meant to reply about not being able to name registrations, and forgot. Yeah, it's an unfortunate omission. But not insurmountable. Three solutions... paper under the buttons (useful for usages up to 20 registrations), paper on the right (useful to show all 64), iPad Mini on the right (scrollable, re-orderable, and sends the appropriate MIDI Program Change when tapped).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, but it is 2024, Casio, not 1983! Then again, even in 1983, a DX7 let you name stuff.   

[AnotherScott]

25 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

Have just bought a Korg Liano to go with my Grandstage and XE20. 
 

20 years ago when I first started gigging, I would have never guessed I would become such a Korg fan when acoustic piano sounds has been my primary consideration. The latest Korgs are, in my view, incredibly competitive on acoustic piano sounds.

 

Yes, as much as I've liked many Korgs for many reasons over the years, piano had never been among them. I've generally preferred, well, pretty much anyone else. But the models you mention are all strong, and I think meet or beat anything else in their price ranges.

 

1 minute ago, D. Gauss said:

Sure, but it is 2024, Casio, not 1983! Then again, even in 1983, a DX7 let you name stuff.   

 

True. And I'm not saying it's not a surprising and irritating limitation. But considering everything it gives you for the price, and the relative ease of working around the issue, I can live with it.

[D. Gauss]

9 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

True. And I'm not saying it's not a surprising and irritating limitation. But considering everything it gives you for the price, and the relative ease of working around the issue, I can live with it.

 

IMO, with money grabbing corporations, if you don't complain loudly and often about it, they ain't gonna fix it. (they probably won't anyways, but still, sometimes they do). 

 

Anybody remember when Pro Tools went to the "subscription only" model, but finally caved from the sheer amount of severe hostile/negative blowback and brought back the perpetual license? That was fun to watch.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, The Piano Man said:

XE20

This board doesn't have 5-pin MIDI, but does have a "TO DEVICE port for connecting, USB flash memory and controllers". 

 

Has anyone tried connecting a class-compliant USB-MIDI device to this port? A controller, or better still a sound source? This could make the XE20 a useful lower board under a top with USB MIDI Device capability.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Piano Man]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

This board doesn't have 5-pin MIDI, but does have a "TO DEVICE port for connecting, USB flash memory and controllers". 

 

Has anyone tried connecting a class-compliant USB-MIDI device to this port? A controller, or better still a sound source? This could make the XE20 a useful lower board under a top with USB MIDI Device capability.

 

Cheers, Mike.

I have connected a Dore Midi USB Host and it allowed me to control my old Roland XV3080 from the XE20, mainly for adding bass patches. The old JV bass card is still competitive imho. I was also able to compare the old SRX02 pianos to those on the XE20. The Korg was much much better and, I know it is 20 years newer but, I was still surprised how much better it sounded. 

[The Piano Man]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yes, as much as I've liked many Korgs for many reasons over the years, piano had never been among them. I've generally preferred, well, pretty much anyone else. But the models you mention are all strong, and I think meet or beat anything else in their price ranges.

Absolutely. 
 

Top tier portable stage piano with high end acoustic and electric pianos in a pro format: Grandstage is tough to beat.

 

Lighter weight 88 with powerful built in speakers and strong acoustic piano sounds, eg a wedding ceremony board: XE20 is very tough to beat. 

 

Portable battery powered 88 key with semi weighted action and strong acoustic piano sound: Liano is tough to beat. (At least I am crossing my fingers as I haven’t actually tried it out)

[Adan]

1 hour ago, The Piano Man said:

 

Portable battery powered 88 key with semi weighted action and strong acoustic piano sound: Liano is tough to beat. (At least I am crossing my fingers as I haven’t actually tried it out)

Please report back!

[APP]

Would love to see Korg come out with a stage piano similar in concept to Yamaha's CK88 (and yes with drawbars please).

[The Piano Man]

7 hours ago, APP said:

Would love to see Korg come out with a stage piano similar in concept to Yamaha's CK88 (and yes with drawbars please).

Both the Kross 88 and Krome 88 are due an upgrade, so your wish may well come true. 
 

There is also the Vox Continental line.

[The Piano Man]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:53 PM, Adan said:

Please report back!

Arrived this weekend. I far prefer it to the Yamaha NP32. It just feels more substantial. I really quite like the keybed. Sort of reminds me of the old Technics keyboard actions on the old Roland EP line (EP7/77/760 etc)

 

I knew I would like the main piano sound as I believe it is a version of the Korg Italian Grand which I have on my Grandstage and a similar one on my XE20.

 

It is brilliantly light to carry as expected. It looks good too. No cheesy arranger keyboard vibes.

 

Yes, I would like proper line outs for hooking things up and to maintain the onboard speakers when doing so. However, I have run a 3.5 to dual 6.3mm Y cable and fired right and left side respectively into a pair of EV ZXa1. It sounds really good. Plenty of cut for live sound but still plenty of body too. It does also sound decent in mono. Amazing what you can get for not a lot of money these days. And, as I have said previously, Korg have definitely finally hit the spot with acoustic piano sound replication. 
 

The Liano with a pair of battery speakers, such as the Bose S1, would make a pretty cool stereo piano rig for wedding ceremonies. 

[Paul Woodward]

On 4/9/2024 at 3:29 PM, The Piano Man said:

20 years ago when I first started gigging, I would have never guessed I would become such a Korg fan when acoustic piano sounds has been my primary consideration. The latest Korgs are, in my view, incredibly competitive on acoustic piano sounds.

Ditto, long time Yamaha piano user up to the CP4. Loved Korg synths, never liked any of their pianos. Grandstage changed that and, after trying a Yamaha CP88 and owning two YC61's and a CK61, I decided to stick with the GS.

[Paul Woodward]

On 4/9/2024 at 9:50 PM, APP said:

Would love to see Korg come out with a stage piano similar in concept to Yamaha's CK88 (and yes with drawbars please).

Given they upgraded little on the Grandstage X, I can't see this happening...which is crazy with that CX-3 organ engine. Original GS had no way to map a controller to the drawbars either... 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

14 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

It is brilliantly light to carry as expected. It looks good too. No cheesy arranger keyboard vibes.

 

Thanks mate for your thoughts and mini review on it.

 

Its weight had my attention from its announcement. Its here in Oz apparently as my friend told me tonight he's seen they're already dropping the price.

 

He suggested heres my chance. Maybe but for the fact of no midi dins, no proper outs etc its less interesting.

 

Ive just started pulling out my keys after years of storage and i have a plethora of space "taker upperers" so any additions need to be carefully assessed. 

 

This friday im taking my Numa Cocal 2x to duo practise for its first run at how it'd feel at a practise or gig. It may be just too powerful and good to want a Lliano

 

Im going to try and see if i can try out one of the Llianos at a shop if i can find one (shops are hard to find near me let a lone stocking Casio).

 

Im just a sucker for physically lightweight keyboards that feel ok to play

 

Need to see if it in the flesh.

[The Piano Man]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:53 PM, Adan said:

3 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

[The Piano Man]

I would say that the other sounds are not great but then one can expect too much!

 

I have a vague memory of a previous discussion of a “Liano Pro” idea, adding

- dedicated buttons for each sound

- better EPs

- simple zoning ala YC etc (2 sounds either side of a split)

- proper line outs

- pitch/mod wheels

 
I am trying to remember what else we requested! Maybe this is expecting too much!

 

 

 

 

[Adan]

19 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

Arrived this weekend. I far prefer it to the Yamaha NP32. It just feels more substantial. I really quite like the keybed.
 

The Liano with a pair of battery speakers, such as the Bose S1, would make a pretty cool stereo piano rig for wedding ceremonies. 

Since you now have both the XE20 and the Liano, any thoughts on how they might divide duties?  The XE20 is about twice the weight of the Liano, but is still pretty light and gives you weighted keys. Battery operation for Liano obviously could be the critical factor for powerless situations: is that the main point of having it for you? I haven't played either of them but if the Liano's action is similar to the Vox Continental, then it's about as good as semi-weighted can be for piano. Still, for me at least, semi-weighted never gets me to the same place as weighted, even a mediocre weighted action.

[Reezekeys]

I'm tempted to get this Liano just for the keybed as I'm toying with going to 88 keys for some local gigs, but severely allergic to schlep. USB to my iPad for all the sounds, unless I like the built-in piano more than my current one. I'm curious if the USB audio connection makes any difference in latency for iPad sounds vs using the iPad's own headphone out. Thanks for the report!

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Adan said:

Since you now have both the XE20 and the Liano, any thoughts on how they might divide duties?  The XE20 is about twice the weight of the Liano, but is still pretty light and gives you weighted keys. Battery operation for Liano obviously could be the critical factor for powerless situations: is that the main point of having it for you?

 

I also have both Liano and XE20. The obvious advantages of Liano are super-light weight, and as you said, battery operation if you need it (I probably won't). For me, the biggest XE20 advantage would be the much beefier speakers, making it the choice for solo piano work where they may be sufficient (e.g. ceremony and/or cocktail hour at a wedding). Other XE20 advantages include 1/4" outputs (which also means you can easily even supplement the built-in speakers if need be without losing the internal speakers themselves) and a much bigger sound set... about 700 sounds instead of 8, and you can split/layer (3 sounds above a split point, 1 sound below), and you can store and recall your setups. And while I don't care about its arranger accompaniment features per se, I may find its backing drum tracks useful, though I haven't used them yet. Patch navigation is a weakness, but the MIDI implementation is good enough that, if it's a problem for you, you can set up your smartphone to directly access all the sounds you want quick access to. Its relatively compact and well-balanced 25-ish lbs is quite manageable... but it's still around twice the weight of the Liano.

 

4 hours ago, Adan said:

I haven't played either of them but if the Liano's action is similar to the Vox Continental, then it's about as good as semi-weighted can be for piano. 

 

I agree that the Vox Continental is among the best non-hammer actions you can get for piano... but Liano is even better.