The Eagles (well, Don Henley) caught miming at their live shows

[Notes_Norton]

17 hours ago, Anderton said:

On the other hand, I doubt we will ever see him compete in a javelin throw, or pro wrestling  🤣  But I've never met the guy, maybe he's 220 pounds of pure muscle 🤔

If you are referring to me, I'm an under 180 pound musician, who does not play any sports. I have fingers to protect, and I don't do anything for recreation that will endanger them. I'm definitely not pure muscle but I gig up to 25 gigs per month, the speakers are just under 40 pounds each, the synth module rack is probably heavier but I roll it in and don't have to lift it to put on the top of speaker stands. Plus I schlep 2 guitars, one tenor sax, one tactile synthesizer, two wind MIDI controllers, microphones, stands, and two rolling suitcases full of cables, pedals, and various small items.

 

It keeps me in shape without having to join a gym.

 

Actually, it's the only work I do. Between getting the gear from my house to the gig, and back, I spend 3 or 4 hours, with my best friend/lover/wife/band-mate, doing our second favorite thing, playing music. It's usually pure bliss, and the time goes by way too quickly. In fact, we are having so much fun, we rarely take our allotted breaks. 

We're in demand, and are simply better than most of our competitors, which is why we and a couple of others get the best gigs.

 

 

Notes ♫

[Notes_Norton]

17 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Ignoring the semantic ways someone can defend the term, viewing the others in the same field as you as your "competition" is more than just a choice of words, in my mind. It is a mindset. When that field is music, IMO it misses the whole point of the endeavor. We're not in this to "outbook" others (specific others, I mean).

No, we don't count our competitors gigs and keep score. We're not upset if our most successful competitor gets more gigs than we do this month (they are also good friends and fine musicians).

 

But we want to make as much money as we can, doing the thing we love. We want to make enough to pay off the mortgage, pay the rest of the bills, put food in the fridge, keep the vehicles running, take an annual vacation, and so on. 

 

Our mortgage is paid off, so are the cars, and we have zero debt. We've taken vacations to all 50 US states, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, St. Croix & St John (USVI), all but 3 Canadian provinces, 7 Mexican states, Bahama Islands, Bermuda Islands, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Saint-Martin/Sint Maarten, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, The Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Czech Republic, Austria, Australia, and China (From the Great Wall down to Hong Kong). We couldn't have done that if we weren't better than most of our competition.
 

If you are in business, you are in competition. All businesses compete with each other. McDonalds competes with Burger King, Wendy's and the others. - Grocery stores compete with each other. Here in Florida, Publix competes with Winn Dixie, Aldis, Walmart, and a few others. - My favorite local restaurants compete with each other for customers by making the best food in the best atmosphere that they can. - My local auto mechanic competes with others for business. He keeps mine by doing good work at a fair price. - Apple vs. Microsoft. - Ford vs. General Motors and the others. - Fender, Gibson, PRS, Ibanez, Music Man, Charvel, Danelectro, Peavey, Eastwood, and so many others compete with each other for customers.

That's what we compete for, customers, not scores, not statistics, not trophies, but money. We need money to survive. If I didn't need money to survive, I'd still do what I'm doing, but I'd probably be more into 'art music' than commercial music. But not being independently wealthy, I need to make a living doing what I love to do. And to make a living, I have to be better than at least most of my competitors.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Notes_Norton]

46 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Eh, it's most definitely "competition" even if you are friendly to those other "competitors".  If you are trying to gig regularly that is.   And to be clear, we try our best to have good relations with other bands--we've gotten gigs and subs out of knowing people.   There are a few aholes in other bands that do like to sabotage other bands behind their backs, usually on "social" media or by talking to club owners, which is always fun when it comes back around to us

 

We find it best not only to be friendly with our competitors, but to never-ever say anything bad about them, even the ones we would avoid listening to. If someone in conversation mentions them, I will mention how I like the thing(s) they do well, even the ones we avoid listening to. Everybody does something right.

When I was 19 or 20 and playing for Motown, Junior Walker told me he liked something I did on the sax. Another musician told me that Walker said I was a good sax man. WOW! The great sax player, the one who I learned licks from by copying his solos, said I was good. That's when I decided to be the kind of musician that says nice things about others.

 

I don't need to elevate myself by putting others down. When I hear others, I applaud, and if they do something nice, afterward I'll tell them, “I really like the way you did ________.”

Being nice has its own rewords. Club owners tell me everybody likes us. That makes it easier to get booked.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[BluMunk]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:29 AM, Notes_Norton said:

Most of my competitors use karaoke tracks. They even get background vocals. One guy I know plays guitar solos over the solos on the karaoke track, he says the audience doesn't know the difference.

Too true. One of my first paying (poorly) gigs was a duo with a vocalist... he had a stack of karaoke CDs. I copied them to mini-disc which felt a little more robust to me than gigging with a CD player, and off we went. All the tracks had piano on them, but I just duplicated and/or played right over the piano on those tracks, with my piano louder than the tracks in the mix so it kind of worked. It felt strange to me, but as you say, I don't think any of our audience noticed or cared.

We eventually moved away from those tracks to a 3-piece plus vocals. A lot more musically rewarding, but much more difficult to rehearse and much less lucrative per gig. And, we had sized ourselves out of a lot of the cafe/restaurant gigs we had done as a duo. 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I'll still stick with "colleagues." 

[Thethirdapple]

When a “fake band” plays successfully with no expectation and when a real band is expected to fake it to be successful…

Both are fantastic. The Stranglers made it perfectly clear!
Long live the spectacle!!!

 

 

 

 

 

PEACE

_
_
_

[jazzpiano88]

9 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'll still stick with "colleagues." 

 

That's funny.   Academia continuing to deny the competitive market despite their Marxist department heads keeping them in their place.   Hopefully in the US, they'll only continue eating their own dog food for a short while.  

[Anderton]

The person I compete with the most is who I was last week. 

[MathOfInsects]

24 minutes ago, Anderton said:

The person I compete with the most is who I was last week. 

Same. Or yesterday. Or the one I sorta like to think I am in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

[Notes_Norton]

I've been making backing tracks for my duo since the 1980s. Listening to one I made way back then, and comparing them to the ones I make now, I see the world of difference practice makes. And I expect to make better ones in the future.

 

I constantly work on my singing, and playing sax, wind synth, flute, drums, bass, keyboards, and my newest instrument with the most yet to learn, the guitar. I'll never be a Jeff Beck on the guitar, I started too late, but next year I'll be a better Bob Norton than I am today.

And as long as I can pull a crowd, and get gigs, I have no plans to retire. It's just too much fun.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[kpl1228]

On 4/6/2024 at 11:21 AM, MathOfInsects said:

OK, a tastier apple. Do we all realize that this was prerecorded? Yet we are willing accept it and talking about it as a Great Moment in Music History. So there is something beyond the mere fact of the vocal being prerecorded that we respond badly to. 

This is a very grey area and all is never what it seems when it comes to liveness and "what we're willing to call 'live' even when it's not."
 

 

True.

This certainly "greys" it all up for sure. To me that version's the gold standard. 

At huge levels unfortunately it has all become acceptable to me. I can almost forgive the big buck tours doing it (well, maybe not the Eagles because of their history of vocal purity) because it's an actual show. Lights, dancers, video, all of it. Still hate it but I can at least acknowledge it for what it is.

I know I'm in the opposite camp with this but I HATE it at the local club/bar level. You're not syncing up to a three-story-tall video screen and 20 dancers and pyro....you're playing a bar at happy hour. At that watered down level, so raw, you're just doing karaoke with your instrument. i've seen musicians miming their instruments at the bar/club level, and heard tons of British synthpop synthline pouring out of a band's PA during their entire set with NO keyboard player. 

And "everyone else does it so why not" is no excuse.

I know it's all grey and everyone has their take.

[MathOfInsects]

23 minutes ago, kpl1228 said:

True.

This certainly "greys" it all up for sure. To me that version's the gold standard. 

At huge levels unfortunately it has all become acceptable to me. I can almost forgive the big buck tours doing it (well, maybe not the Eagles because of their history of vocal purity) because it's an actual show. Lights, dancers, video, all of it. Still hate it but I can at least acknowledge it for what it is.

I know I'm in the opposite camp with this but I HATE it at the local club/bar level. You're not syncing up to a three-story-tall video screen and 20 dancers and pyro....you're playing a bar at happy hour. At that watered down level, so raw, you're just doing karaoke with your instrument. i've seen musicians miming their instruments at the bar/club level, and heard tons of British synthpop synthline pouring out of a band's PA during their entire set with NO keyboard player. 

And "everyone else does it so why not" is no excuse.

I know it's all grey and everyone has their take.

I couldn't agree more. I hate when "local" bands use tracks. The whole point of watching a local band, IMO, is to see how they figure out a way to play something. 

As I said above, for whatever reason it doesn't bother me for solos or duos, particularly one I'm the keyboardist for , UNLESS there was just no reason to use a track and you did it anyway. Why not use one for "Smooth Operator," it only makes it groovier. On the flip side, why would you ever use one for "At Last," it only covers it in cheese. Maybe 25% is the threshold I feel OK about. Then it starts to feel downscale and useless. 
 

Any dancing singer you see in a large-scale context is lip-syncing. You just can't sing up to the level people demand while you're dancing. I have to just decide not to know that I know that, to enjoy the show.

You've basically never seen a live-performed Super Bowl performance in your lifetime. Maybe Prince? I can't remember if he was tracked too, but my sense of him is that he'd be the one to say "take it or leave it." Everyone else has to sign a contract agreeing that their performance will be prerecorded (the day before, I believe, is the custom), including vocals. Sometimes you're only hearing the pre-recorded vocals, sometimes you're hearing a mix, some much more occasional times you're hearing all live vox. But you will never, ever, hear live musicians playing behind the singer. 

That beautiful chamber ensemble performance at Obama's inauguration? Pre-taped. All of the performances were. It was cold that day, and not only is it impossible to keep strings in tune and play them well with cold hands, but all you'd have heard if it was live would have been wind across mic membranes. 

People would be amazed how much of their understanding of "liveness" is based on willful self-delusion. 

[Stokely]

I never heard that whitney rendition, but if it was pre-recorded then by (my) definition it wasn't any "great moment in music history."  It is entertainment, sure, I personally wouldn't care if I was there to watch the sporting event.  If I was there to see Whitney perform it would matter a lot to me.  ymmv.
 

[jazzpiano88]

It's pretty funny.  The Math explains to us that tracks are a way of life like we're his students. 

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

20 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

And "everyone else does it so why not" is no excuse.

In my case it's, “do you want to pay the mortgage by doing music, or getting a day, wage-slave job.” When playing music for a living, there are certain compromises the musician(s) must make. But to me, the ultimate compromise is working a day-joy so I can play 'art music' on a Monday or Tuesday night when the club isn't busy.

 

So for my own integrity, I make my own backing tracks. It's the best I can do to keep working without relying on someone else's music. And Mrs. Notes and I have been doing this since 1985, and the only time we were out of work was during the COVID lockdown.

The 5-piece band we were in before we decided to go duo, was out of work 3 months in the last year we were together, due to personnel problems. And that wasn't the first band that I had difficulties with.

 

Sure, I want to hear 100% live music, but I'm a musician. I don't care if the musicians are putting on a theatrical show, but I'm a musician. I prefer to hear high-fidelity recorded music instead of 45s, cassettes, or mp3s, but I'm a musician. But I'm also a businessman. I have to be if I want to make my living doing music and nothing but music. So what's probably even more important that what I want? What the audience wants. So for me there is that point that is a compromise between me and the audience, and that's the sweet spot I aim for. I'm gigging, life is good, and I'm happy.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Notes_Norton]

20 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

You've basically never seen a live-performed Super Bowl performance in your lifetime.

Unless it was in the very early days, when they still had marching bands performing at halftime.

 

And as far as I'm concerned, they should still have marching bands at halftime, the super-star-super-show at halftime to me is totally inappropriate.

 

But they aren't marketing their wares to me, in the last football game I watched, Bob Griese was the quarterback.

 

Notes ♫

[Philbo King]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:23 AM, Notes_Norton said:

Unless it was in the very early days, when they still had marching bands performing at halftime.

 

And as far as I'm concerned, they should still have marching bands at halftime, the super-star-super-show at halftime to me is totally inappropriate.

 

But they aren't marketing their wares to me, in the last football game I watched, Bob Griese was the quarterback.

 

Notes ♫

It was Bart Starr for me.  ~60 years ago.

Over the years I've come to regard organized team sports as a form of brain damage (YMMV)

[Notes_Norton]

21 hours ago, Philbo King said:

It was Bart Starr for me.  ~60 years ago.

Over the years I've come to regard organized team sports as a form of brain damage (YMMV)

I remember Bart Starr.

 

But the last football game I ever watched, Bob Griese was the quarterback. In fact, I haven't watched any TV at all since about 1990. I'm too busy doing other things that are more fun for me.

[jazzpiano88]

I like to Bowl ever since my Dad taught me as a kid.  Watching televised PBA bowling tournaments is pretty fun occasionally.  The skill involved to release and hook the ball properly and consistently is just amazing.   Same with watching golf.   Great bowlers often make great golfers and vice versa. 

[Notes_Norton]

Bowled a little and golfed a little when I was still in school.

 

After graduating, I toured the country in a rock band for a few years. Never went back to any sports after that (unless you consider chasing females to be a sport).

 

I actually quit watching TV in 1986. We had a 3-week with options gig on a cruise ship. We set revenue records in the lounge we were gigging in, so we stayed on after the 3 weeks. 3 years later, Mrs. Notes' mom got sick, so we 'jumped ship' and became landlubbers.

 

During the ship years, there was no TV, except for a movie that played over and over and over or the advertising station that promoted all the ship sponsored shore excursions. I got out of the habit of watching because it wasn't there. Instead I found other things to do.

 

I got off the ship, hooked up the cable, and found neither of us were watching it. So we disconnected. I could hook up an antenna, the house is wired, and there was a mast from the pre-cable days, but I never did. I eventually took the mast down when I had the house painted. I'm in a fringe area, so without that, I get zero TV.

We went over to our mother-in-law's house to watch the last Johnny Carson Tonight show and the first Jay Leno edition. 

 

Instead, I created over 600 backing tracks for my duo, from scratch. It's ongoing to this day. I learned to write aftermarket styles and song software for Band-in-a-Box, created a mail-order biz, which turned into an internet biz. I wrote the code for my websites. I also learned how to play wind synthesizer and lead guitar. 

 

There is nothing wrong with TV, but I guess I'm the type that prefers doing things than watching. 

Full disclosure. Mrs. Notes and I turn the TV on once a week to watch a movie. At first, it was Blockbuster, then the minimal disk-in-the-mail subscription from Netflix, and now either the library, redbox, kanopy or hoopla.

 

OK, back on topic.

 

On the cruise ships, there was a small orchestra that played to a click track. In the main production show, the musicians duplicated what was being broadcast through the speakers. The 'production singer' (star) sang live, but a dancer mimed any other parts. His/her voice was on the track. No microphones for the orchestra, they just fattened the sound of the track. 

 

That was in the late 1980s. It's been going on longer than most of us know.

 

Notes ♫

[jazzpiano88]

8 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

There is nothing wrong with TV, but I guess I'm the type that prefers doing things than watching.

 

That's definitely true for me as well.   As much as I can enjoy a weekend afternoon watching the final two rounds of the Masters Tourney on TV between catnaps, getting out onto a golf course for a round at 6:30am is one of the most exhilarating experiences one can ever have, IMO. 

[mcgoo]

On 4/5/2024 at 1:08 PM, analogika said:

... Now, here’s the situation: you retired decades ago, because you knew that would eventually happen, but people want to see you for stuff you did 45 years ago. 

 

Hundreds of thousands are clamouring for live concerts, willing to pay lots and lots of money for something you cannot do — and that, with a few minutes’ thought, THEY should realise you cannot do. But they want to buy. 
 

Do you pass, or do you sell them what they want to see? 

 

Take a cue from Billy Joel. Lower the key and sing the darn song. A minor third if you need to. The few folks in attendance that would notice would likely understand why and be forgiving. 

[Philbo King]

I remember watching American Bandstand from the 60s.  Almost every band on there mimed to the record.  The rare exceptions included Canned Heat and The Doors.

 

[analogika]

10 hours ago, mcgoo said:

 

Take a cue from Billy Joel. Lower the key and sing the darn song. A minor third if you need to. The few folks in attendance that would notice would likely understand why and be forgiving. 

 

Or just use backing tracks, knowing that *nobody* in attendance will notice. 

It's kind of ironic that the reality of having an audience of literally billions through ubiquitous cellphone recordings, that can be relentlessly scrutinised by unforgiving nerds, should escape them. 

OTOH, I know from MAJOR vocal acts (who definitely could perform adequately) that they started routinely using complete tracks for the lead vocals a decade ago (often recorded during dress rehearsal, not in the studio) precisely because of the ubiquity of cellphone recordings. Whatever tiny fuckup or burp-related flat note or missed cue might happen over the course of a normal live show instantly gets amplified to a social media fail of epic proportions. The singer in question was simply no longer willing to afford the risk that entailed. 

 

So it's really damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't, in a way… 

[harmonizer]

On 4/11/2024 at 8:12 PM, jazzpiano88 said:

It's pretty funny.  The Math explains to us that tracks are a way of life like we're his students. 

 

 

That was a painful watch.  And I really love that song.

[eric]

Tracks seem to be ubiquitous at this point, for most any major touring act...perhaps not jam bands or jazz groups. 

 

I have a recollection from 15+ years ago when my band was doing an opener for ZZ Top at a local music festival. ZZ Top had a very well hidden bank of computers with a person running their tracks. They were extremely secretive about it and part of their rider indicated that NO ONE could be in the venue during their sound check. They ended up being a little bit lenient with the opening act, though we were told to stay in our trailer during the sound check.

 

I also remember seeing Earth, Wind & Fire with some band mates and we were all noticing music coming from the speakers that we couldn't trace to anyone on stage. This was quite a while ago and we were feeling a little disappointed...but I guess it's what the pros are doing.

[Notes_Norton]

On 5/15/2024 at 11:14 AM, eric said:

.but I guess it's what the pros are doing.

I think that when concerts became big business, with big investors, there had to be some sort of fail-safe. 

With millions of dollars at stake, not only do you have backing tracks, but need the ability to replace anyone's voice who gets laryngitis. 

And with so many acts being acrobatic in their dance moves, I suspect the lead singer is also on the track.

In my duo, I'm proud that I make my own backing tracks, but the audience doesn't really know that. I hope they are better than the karaoke tracks my competitors use, and I hope that's what they notice.

 

 

Notes ♫

[MMRD50]

On 4/6/2024 at 4:18 PM, MathOfInsects said:

You’re right, it’s more like apples and crabapples in this case, although to be sure they hid Spike when they could.

 

I disagree with the Piaf analogy; she is not making or expected to be making the sound of an orchestra. A closer one would be her and a chamber ensemble on stage, with a “hidden” full orchestra filling in sounds. 

Not only that, but everyone knows Piaf’s orchestra is in the pit. That’s how that performance context works. And those musicians are listed in the program; the conductor is visible and gets a bow. No one knew Queen had a Man Behind The Curtain. They actually worked quite hard to make it look like they were the ones making all those sounds. 

 

That’s VERY close to tracks; it’s a clicktrack/in-ear away from them, a sort of fish-with-legs middle ground.

 

Why not just put him on stage and introduce him? Why hide the use of additional sound? 
 

I’m not knocking them, just pointing out that we are comfortable with much more deception around live sound than we tend to realize.

Spike Edney was not an man hiding behind "The Curtain"...There was no curtain!...He came out, stage front, and played second guitar on Hammer to Fall with the band.

He played additional keyboards, never hidden and credited in concert programs and TV/video performances.

Has been been Queens MD for many years since.