The Eagles (well, Don Henley) caught miming at their live shows

[kpl1228]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Queen used to run a recording of the opera section on Bohemian Rhapsody, since they couldn't pull it off live. Should they have just skipped their biggest hit?

A sample for ten or 20 seconds of an iconic intro, or an orchestral part, or something that complex, or even a keyboard intro of a song for a band without a keyboard player....no one would question it. That's fine. This is just splitting hairs.

[David Emm]

2 hours ago, BMD said:

Yes. And it's 'Ramones', not 'The Ramones'

 

Heh, dude, you triggered me! They were a scorching-fun band. I laughed my arse off to see them channel Tom *their* way, doing "I Don't Wanna Grow Up."

 

Tom Waits original version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWh4xHeFMIQ

 

RAMONES version at the end of the superhero romp "Shazam!"

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQLQpOTXz2E

 

Excellent! It was a superior choice for a tale about a child who turns into an adult superhero with a word.

 

"... sometimes wish that I could be a dog." I hear ya. What a beautiful sentiment! 🐶

[MathOfInsects]

Here are some apples.

 

[jazzpiano88]

6 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Here are some apples.

 

 

The oranges are that the featured vocalist are miming the lyrics like the Ashlee Simpson SNL Debacle. 

 

[Thethirdapple]

There are bands/musical acts which I knowingly know that the sound is being produced by more than realtime fingers feet and voices… And I ok with that. (Nearly all electronic music). A concert can certainly include spectacle for my other senses, lights, motion etc… But what I cant go with are “performers” who fantasize about not getting older.

 

I truly respect artists who are upfront about aging and all that it entails. Going to a concert to bolster Don’s vanity project is a joke!

 

I guess these guys were simply a few decades too early to be considered real musicians…

The Milli Vanilli Experience

might as well: blame it on the rain!

 

 

 

PEACE

_
_
_

 

[Notes_Norton]

20 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

We all know an 80 year old singer does not sound 25.

 

I'm in my 70s, and I'm singing better than ever. It can be done but:

1. You need to sing with proper breath support. This is something that most self-taught singers do not know how to do. Tony Bennet was taught bel canto and could sing in his 90s.
2. You need to sing long, and sing often. Don't stop gigging or your muscles will get out of shape, and your vocal folds will stiffen up.

To be sure, I'm not singing like I'm 20, I'm singing better than I was at 20.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[analogika]

11 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Here are some apples.

 

a) everything the main band is doing on stage is real, and live. 
b) the additional musician is visible in this officially released concert video.

c) the additional musician is playing live, with the rest of the band. (Yes, that Emulator contains <1 second Oberheim "sequences" repeatedly retriggered for "Radio Gaga".) 

 

This is kind of like Edith Piaf at Carnegie Hall. She's alone, at front, and the entire orchestra and choir are hidden behind a curtain, behind her. People are there to see her; the orchestra needs to be there to allow her to perform, but it’s not the attraction. Same with the band Queen, which is the four guys who did the record. Spike Edney needs to be there to let them perform some stuff, but he’s not the attraction. 

[Anderton]

20 hours ago, analogika said:

 

Do you pass, or do you sell them what they want to see? 

 

Said over-the-hill singer does "an evening with [singer's name)," puts together a kick-ass band of people who can play the music, and finds a good singer who sounds like the "real thing." Then the star plays some miscellaneous instruments, does the occasional harmony, tells stories of life on the road, gets people onstage and does audience interactions, has a video in the background with pictures of the band in its heyday, and puts on an entertaining evening. Peter Asher does something very much like this. It's a lot of fun, doesn't demean him at all, doesn't put one over on the audience, and it doesn't matter that he's 142 years old.

[Anderton]

21 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Mrs. Notes and I play to backing tracks. All the duos around here do that, and it's necessary if you want to be booked.

 

21 hours ago, Stokely said:

As mentioned above, they are expected in some cases, our singer's duo can't play in a couple spots already because they don't run them. 

 

What? I didn't know that tracks had become a requirement. Why? Joni Mitchell opened for us several times, it was just her and a guitar, and she was AWESOME with a rivetting stage presence. So the Joni Mitchells of the future will have to use backing tracks?!? I don't get it.

 

And here I was planning on doing a live act with no tracks because I could generate bass from the guitar, add a harmony processor to my voice, and use a drum machine with footswitching to do fills and transitions...guess I'm finally a dinosaur. Better dust off the ol' sequencer and kiss spontaneity goodbye, which (silly me) I always thought was part of the charm of live performance.

[Stokely]

Well--and I'm not in a solo/duo act myself so I'm taking this from our singer and guitarist's experience--it isn't all that widespread, yet.  Just a couple joints.  The manager told her that customers liked the "full sound" or something like that.  As time goes on I expect more pressure on acts to conform to using tracks.

Our guitarist does as Joni did, just him and a guitar with no tracks or harmonizers, no zany show and he does as many as 30 solo gigs a month, making way better tips than the full band does.  He won't wow people with high tenor notes, he's got a good not great voice IMO.   He's got a gift for connecting to audiences and unlike me is social with people off stage  and that apparently counts for a lot.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, analogika said:

a) everything the main band is doing on stage is real, and live. 
b) the additional musician is visible in this officially released concert video.

c) the additional musician is playing live, with the rest of the band. (Yes, that Emulator contains <1 second Oberheim "sequences" repeatedly retriggered for "Radio Gaga".) 

 

This is kind of like Edith Piaf at Carnegie Hall. She's alone, at front, and the entire orchestra and choir are hidden behind a curtain, behind her. People are there to see her; the orchestra needs to be there to allow her to perform, but it’s not the attraction. Same with the band Queen, which is the four guys who did the record. Spike Edney needs to be there to let them perform some stuff, but he’s not the attraction. 

You’re right, it’s more like apples and crabapples in this case, although to be sure they hid Spike when they could.

 

I disagree with the Piaf analogy; she is not making or expected to be making the sound of an orchestra. A closer one would be her and a chamber ensemble on stage, with a “hidden” full orchestra filling in sounds. 

Not only that, but everyone knows Piaf’s orchestra is in the pit. That’s how that performance context works. And those musicians are listed in the program; the conductor is visible and gets a bow. No one knew Queen had a Man Behind The Curtain. They actually worked quite hard to make it look like they were the ones making all those sounds. 

 

That’s VERY close to tracks; it’s a clicktrack/in-ear away from them, a sort of fish-with-legs middle ground.

 

Why not just put him on stage and introduce him? Why hide the use of additional sound? 
 

I’m not knocking them, just pointing out that we are comfortable with much more deception around live sound than we tend to realize.

[analogika]

3 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

That’s VERY close to tracks; it’s a clicktrack/in-ear away from them, a sort of fish-with-legs middle ground.

 

Why not just put him on stage and introduce him? Why hide the use of additional sound? .

Because — and I think that's the heart of the matter here — nobody cares. 

[MathOfInsects]

33 minutes ago, analogika said:

Because — and I think that's the heart of the matter here — nobody cares. 

Hmmm. I guess I’m an outlier then, because I do. And FWIW, if I were at that theoretical Edith Piaf concert, I’d spend the whole time watching whatever remnants of the orchestra I could see, and nigh on ignoring Piaf.

 

Also, as a sidenote, Pavarotti used prerecorded vocals on more than one occasion.

[MathOfInsects]

Also, I assume we all know that that's not Freddie Mercury on the high notes...?

[MathOfInsects]

OK, a tastier apple. Do we all realize that this was prerecorded? Yet we are willing accept it and talking about it as a Great Moment in Music History. So there is something beyond the mere fact of the vocal being prerecorded that we respond badly to. 

This is a very grey area and all is never what it seems when it comes to liveness and "what we're willing to call 'live' even when it's not."
 

 

[Bill H.]

Eagles's approach to not being able to hit the high notes live was a lot different in the 1970s. Something I ran across this morning in Wikipedia: 

 

According to Frey, fans of the band loved Meisner's performance of "Take It to the Limit" at their concerts, and came to consider it his signature song within the band. Henley, too, noted that fans "went crazy when Randy hit those high notes". Meisner, however, was concerned about not being able to hit the high notes. Frey was insistent that Meisner should perform the song in concert, and live performances of the song then became a source of great contention between Frey and Meisner – eventually becoming one reason for Meisner's departure from the band.

 

Meisner had been struggling to hit the crucial high notes in the song during the Hotel California tour. According to Joe Walsh, Meisner could perform the song, but would become nervous when told he had to sing it. By the time they had reached Knoxville, Tennessee in June 1977, the band was feeling the strain of a long tour, with Meisner unhappy and suffering from a stomach ulcer. Meisner decided not to sing the song for an encore because he had been up late and caught the flu. Frey and Meisner then became involved in an angry physical confrontation backstage over Meisner's refusal to perform the song. After the altercation, Meisner was frozen out from the band and he decided to leave. He left the band at the end of their tour in September 1977 and was replaced by Timothy B. Schmit – coincidentally, the same bassist who had replaced him in Poco.

 

As far as Eagles today, it's one thing to look at graphs and see lines match up, and quite another to listen to two separate performances that are exactly the same. If anyone hasn't already listened to that clip, just check out the part between three and five minutes in.

 

It's chilling. The crazy part is that Desperado is one of the easiest Eagles songs to sing. Heck I've sung it hundreds of times. Even in G it's not that bad. If Desperado is mimed, then everything is. 

[analogika]

The approach seems the same, dunnit? 
 

"If you can’t get those notes, you’ll be replaced." 
 

It’s merely the available options for "replacement" that have changed. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Bill H. said:

As far as Eagles today, it's one thing to look at graphs and see lines match up, and quite another to listen to two separate performances that are exactly the same. If anyone hasn't already listened to that clip, just check out the part between three and five minutes in.

 

It's chilling. The crazy part is that Desperado is one of the easiest Eagles songs to sing. Heck I've sung it hundreds of times. Even in G it's not that bad. If Desperado is mimed, then everything is. 

It's also possible that sometimes he does it live, and sometimes, when he's not feeling up to it, he lip-syncs, and those recordings happened to be from lip-synced instances. Very common...

[Notes_Norton]

On 4/6/2024 at 10:14 AM, Anderton said:

What? I didn't know that tracks had become a requirement. Why? Joni Mitchell opened for us several times, it was just her and a guitar, and she was AWESOME with a rivetting stage presence. So the Joni Mitchells of the future will have to use backing tracks?!? I don't get it.

 

You ain't from around her boy, is you?  

Seriously, you are in a good music city. Around here, all my duo and trio competitors are using tracks except one. The keyboard player is a monster, and he still uses a drum machine, unless going trio where he hires a drummer.

 

There are a number of singles with just guitar, but that's a different act. Mostly smaller, intimate rooms that won't pay what we ask for. The ones gigging where we gig use loopers, drum machines and so on. One guy has two pedals, one for MIDI kick drum and one for snare. Most of the unaccompanied guitarists play at the "Dune Bar" which is on top of the sand dune, at the beach, and won't sit more than 30 people.

Around here, if there is a duo or trio, they expect dance music, and sounding like a band. Most of my competitors use karaoke tracks. They even get background vocals. One guy I know plays guitar solos over the solos on the karaoke track, he says the audience doesn't know the difference.

Now perhaps if I lived in Nashville, LA, NYNY or Chicago I could do a duo without tracks, but around here, it's a requirement.

I make my own, which I think work better than karaoke tracks. It seems more 'honest' too, but the audience doesn't know or care about that. But I can put them in our key, rearrange them, exaggerate the groove, bring out the backbeat, play my own solos and do other things you cannot do with a karaoke track. It makes a better gigging experience for us, and hopefully for the audience. We did 22 gigs last month, the season is over and we still have 18 this month, so It's working.

 

Notes ♫

[Notes_Norton]

Me? I prefer to hear 100% live music. 

I also prefer to play 100% live music, but I like to eat, put gas in the car, and pay my property taxes and insurance (the mortgage is paid off).

A friend of mine used to say, “You gotta do what you gotta do” and that is so true.

 

When I played on the cruise ships, the orchestra played along to a click track. The track came through the speakers, and the live orchestra just fattened up the sound. (I wouldn't want that gig.) 

 

<rewind a bit>

 

The future Mrs. Notes and I were playing in different bands when we met. It was like at first sight, which turned into love quickly. Both our bands broke up at the same time, and we got in a new 5-piece band for a while. That one broke up, we hired a good pianist/organist, and gigged about a year that way. It was before tracks. 

 

Luckily, we fit into a local trio looking to expand, and we worked perhaps 2 years steady. Then the bass player quit. We were out of work 2 months looking for and teaching the new person our songs. Out the 2 months we saw duos coming out with backing tracks. A few months later, the drummer quit. We were only out one month then.

We got to our first gig, at a big country club. Because of our former reputation, the dining room was packed, and so they folded the accordion pleat separator and told us to set up in the lounge, facing the dining room. That's when the new drummer said, “God won't forgive me if I play in a bar.” I responded, “God will have to forgive me for breaking the 'thou shalt not kill' commandment if you don't play in the bar tonight.”

 

The next day I started looking and bought a keyboard with auto accompaniment and a sequencer built in, and Mrs. Notes and I went duo. 3 months out of work was hard, the house wasn't paid off yet. As my friend said, “You gotta do what you gotta do.”

 

That was in 1985, and until COVID, we were never out of work, except for vacation time, which we learned must be blocked out in advance, or we won't get one, all dates will be booked.

Things progressed from there, we added a drum machine to get gated snare. Then I bought a 4 track reel-to-reel and started adding my own parts, and mixing to cassette.

 

Later I bought a hardware sequencer and started inputting all my own parts. I'd carry a 10 space road rack full of synth modules back then. I bought a few commercial sequences back then, and decided I could do a better job myself.

Fast forward, skipping a few generations, to today. I create them in my 'studio', mix them, and save to 192MP3. We sound better and work more than the karaoke duos.

 

We're not living in luxury, but the mortgage is paid off and we have no debt. Sure, I made compromises, I'd rather play in that 5 or 6 piece band, I'd rather do some more adventurous material, but I'm making a living. I don't have to work a wage-slave job to support my music, my music supports me.

 

Like my friend said, “You gotta do what you gotta do.”

 

Notes ♫

[MathOfInsects]

“Competitors”??

 

They’ve got some crazy sports these days.

[Anderton]

32 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

“Competitors”??

 

They’ve got some crazy sports these days.

 

When there's a limited pool of gigs, you're competing with the others who want to access that pool. At least it's not a blood sport, and no one gets concussions

[MathOfInsects]

Nah. This ain't the Olympics. You and your musical colleagues are engaging in your chosen profession, collectively. This is all of us getting to put our feet in the same ocean. That's all. 

If people are getting the jobs you want, don't get mad. Get better. 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

If people are getting the jobs you want, don't get mad. Get better. 

 

The definition of competition is much broader than sporting events (or commerce). In its most general meaning, according to ChapGPT's summary from multiple dictionaries, "competition encompasses the effort to outperform others, secure resources, or achieve success in various contexts."

 

By saying "get better" I think the logical result would be that those who get better will outperform those who don't. But that's only one facet of competition. Another one is "achieve success," and having regular gigs and getting paid for them seems at least to me to qualify as success. As to securing resources, gigs are a finite resource. So, by definition, people compete for those finite resources by getting better to outperform others. I think at least in Notes's case, competition definitely applies to what he does. I certainly don't pick up on him being mad, just adapting to the current reality of his milieu.

 

On the other hand, I doubt we will ever see him compete in a javelin throw, or pro wrestling  🤣  But I've never met the guy, maybe he's 220 pounds of pure muscle 🤔

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, Anderton said:

 

The definition of competition is much broader than sporting events (or commerce). In its most general meaning, according to ChapGPT's summary from multiple dictionaries, "competition encompasses the effort to outperform others, secure resources, or achieve success in various contexts."

 

By saying "get better" I think the logical result would be that those who get better will outperform those who don't. But that's only one facet of competition. Another one is "achieve success," and having regular gigs and getting paid for them seems at least to me to qualify as success. As to securing resources, gigs are a finite resource. So, by definition, people compete for those finite resources by getting better to outperform others. I think at least in Notes's case, competition definitely applies to what he does. I certainly don't pick up on him being mad, just adapting to the current reality of his milieu.

 

On the other hand, I doubt we will ever see him compete in a javelin throw, or pro wrestling  🤣  But I've never met the guy, maybe he's 220 pounds of pure muscle 🤔

 

 

This is a side-trip of a side-trip, so we can shelve it any time in favor of the main road, but...

Ignoring the semantic ways someone can defend the term, viewing the others in the same field as you as your "competition" is more than just a choice of words, in my mind. It is a mindset. When that field is music, IMO it misses the whole point of the endeavor. We're not in this to "outbook" others (specific others, I mean). If we wanted to do that we could choose...well, basically any other job. I have never once counted the gigs I've done as a means of seeing if I "beat" someone else. What is the point of that? I could sell insurance and stop worrying about all of it, if that was my goal. I count them to see how I'm doing compared to last year, and to figure out how much rent is going to hurt this month.

We WANT other people playing, it makes the marketplace better for all of us (unless they're playing for free and driving down our rates, which in that case, they can eat all the turds). If you're working in a slice of the field with little opportunity, than the "better" you need to get is to be hirable for more kinds of gigs.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people playing gigs I'd love to have. If @Bobadohshe ever leaves the Padres gig I'll be knocking on that door so fast some metal drummer will ask to borrow my double-kick pedal. But I can't imagine ever thinking of him or someone else as a "competitor." We're just people working the same profession.

Sure, if you and I are auditioning for the same chair in a specific band, I suppose then we are competing. But really, even then we're just both applying. Someone will be selected and that's all we can say about that.

In my mind, if you're "competing," you need to spend that time and energy instead developing whatever part of your skillset or show makes you unavoidable-to-hire. Be so good they can't ignore you. But do it so you're the best musician/option that you can be, not to "beat" others. That's a losing proposition all around, IMO. We're a scarce resource. We are more valuable together than fragmented. We're devalued enough by society already, not to make it worse by devaluing one another. 

On a whole different (closer to OP) topic, funny how different local scenes have different cultures. I almost never see any solos or duos use tracks here, but if a solo player doesn't loop, I don't think they can count on a ton of work here.

However, the times pre-pandy that I played with a singer who used tracks...I'm not going to lie: paradise. To play a duo gig and get to just be the "keyboard player" in the soundfield, and sometimes even to have the keys already on the track? Gold, Jerry, gold!

[Ivan May]

I don't know, Timothy B. Schmit's voice still sounded pretty good. Both he and Don Henley's vocals had the highest pitches out of all the singers in The Eagles--but Don Henley can't really sing like he used to. Harmless Dave Spuria even posted on YT that Joe Walsh can't really sing anymore either, but Walsh is more of a guitarist than a singer so go figure.

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

Joe Walsh one of the Rock greatest Singers ever (I'll take JW over Eagles anyday over pure harmonic development):

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

Eh, it's most definitely "competition" even if you are friendly to those other "competitors".  If you are trying to gig regularly that is.   And to be clear, we try our best to have good relations with other bands--we've gotten gigs and subs out of knowing people.   There are a few aholes in other bands that do like to sabotage other bands behind their backs, usually on "social" media or by talking to club owners, which is always fun when it comes back around to us  

We've been bumped by clubs a number of times when a more sought-after band (bigger following) became available.   We don't have any gigs this quarter at one big resort (where we were gigging several times a month) presumably because their new crop of bands got some fresh talent in (they do auditions once a year to set their rotation).   We had a great relationship with the sound engineers and by all indications were doing great there, so it's a bit of a mystery.   I don't need the money personally as I have a day job, but several of our members rely at least partially on gig money, so that hurt.

In our case, I think our biggest disadvantage isn't our avoidance of tracks, but our age.  Hard to compete with better-looking people that are 20 or 30 or more years younger, especially when they are really good!   But we are so far still managing it, and we try to be super professional and accommodating to help with this, no rock star attitudes... 

Edit: another disadvantage is that our lead singer/booking person is a woman.  Frankly a fair number of the venue hiring contacts are misogynistic douchebags.    But she works super hard to lead and book the band, and we just don't play certain places.

I think the tracks thing will eventually hurt us, if it hasn't already.  If it reaches the point where you can't gig without them I'll call it a day for live gigging but I'm likely the only one in my band that will draw that line.  Which is fine, we all have our hills to die on.

If playing in bands in the Olympics, then tracks are steroids.  Good luck to those not hopped up on them  

 

[Notes_Norton]

21 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

“Competitors”??

 

They’ve got some crazy sports these days.

It's definitely competition. Who gets the best gigs, who gets the most gigs, and who can ask for the most money.

Business is competition, and an independent band, not someone who draws a W2 form, is an independent business. The other acts are all competitors.

If you don't treat your band/duo/single as a small business, you won't make as much money as you could otherwise.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Notes_Norton]

20 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

If people are getting the jobs you want, don't get mad. Get better. 

 

Thus, the competition. Like sports, you practice to get better. Practice your chops, practice the songs you will play, practice reading the audience to play the right song at the right time, practice your stage presentation, and everything else that goes into entertaining the audience you find in front of you each night.

If you have a better product than your competitors, and if you market yourself properly, you will get the best gigs and the most gigs.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫