Thinking about Keith Emerson

[techristian]

I knew that he died some 8 years ago,  but I didn't realize that it was a suicide. I had heard way back in the 90's that he had mental health problems. Why is it that some of the most creative people have "breakdowns". Are we more "sensitive" than others ?

 

If you were to ask my wife, she would tell you that his music drove him insane, because she doesn't like fast ,busy  music. I get to hear only a few ELP songs in the car before she has me switch to Beatles or Pop.

 

I also know that LOUD VOLUME also affects the nervous system.

 

Dan

[KuruPrionz]

I was unaware of Keith's passing by suicide, that is tragic. 

I saw ELP in concert on the Brain Salad Surgery tour and they were fantastic.

[Dave Bryce]

As far as I know, Keith suffered from pretty serious depression.  If nothing else, his right hand/arm were damaged to the point that he couldn’t really use his pinky or ring finger to play keyboards.  

 

I saw a couple of his last performances, and could clearly hear the frustration in his playing.  I can’t even begin to imagine how torturous that must have been for him.

 

dB

[KenElevenShadows]

There's quite a link between creativity and mental illness.

 

This article discusses some of it, but I'd rather let people do a deep dive into the relationship. https://www.getty.edu/news/the-link-between-creativity-and-mental-illness/

[KenElevenShadows]

Keith Emerson, NAMM show, 2014. I believe this is one of the gigs that Dave mentions where you could see the frustration. I know what he could do, but quite frankly, his playing was still so much better than what most could ever hope to do.

 

We don't know what demons people wrestle with on a daily basis. Maybe this will be another reminder of that, to maybe be a little less harsh to our fellow human beings and try to understand them a little more.

[K K]

Even though saddened, Lake said something like he wasn't extremely surprised when it happened, as he knew Emerson lived a very isolated life since years, on top of his medical and personal problems. Suicide is a permanent "solution" to a temporary problem and here again even despite his dexterity problems he could have continued to work as composer of film scores, advisor at synth companies and so much more. Also, many said he was an emotional person and in the last years was reading the horrible social media crap about him. It is very sad that this complete crap influenced him negatively to the point of forgetting about the positive and talents he still had.

 

Now, on a more general level, artists often have a much more emotional and sensitive nature than most. Same with people with high IQ or who were born with a "tree-based thinking OS" brain as I call it (believe me, it is not fun). So very sensitive/emotional people can be affected a lot more than most with the difficult aspects of life.

[Dave Bryce]

27 minutes ago, KenElevenShadows said:

Keith Emerson, NAMM show, 2014. I believe this is one of the gigs that Dave mentions where you could see the frustration.

 

Yes.  I was standing right by Ken when he took this photo, so we were really close to him.  

 

dB

[The Real MC]

After the suicide, Greg Lake had said that Keith's depression started during the making of "Works". 

 

It wasn't just his pinky - I saw a late picture of Keith with his thumb visible on his right hand - it was grossly curled back and it was not pretty..

[Dave Bryce]

38 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

After the suicide, Greg Lake had said that Keith's depression started during the making of "Works". 

 I’ve heard about that as well.  Apparently, he wanted very badly to be taken as a serious composer, and the less than enthusiastic reception of his concerto really crushed him.  I seem to recall an account of Leonard Bernstein hearing it, who apparently was not terribly impressed.

 

I saw an interview of him talking about his legacy, and he was unhappy that he was most recognized for Lucky Man, which he…disliked.  He asked something like, “When people ask me what I’ve written that they’d recognize, what am I going to do - whistle Tarkus?”

 

dB

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, K K said:

... even despite his dexterity problems he could have continued to work as composer of film scores, advisor at synth companies and so much more. Also, many said he was an emotional person and in the last years was reading the horrible social media crap about him. It is very sad that this complete crap influenced him negatively to the point of forgetting about the positive and talents he still had.

 

This dovetails with the thread about the banning of TikTok. "Social media" curdled a lot of my "milk of human kindness." If anything, it is the antithesis of creativity. I also smelled a lot of envy in the shade that was thrown at Keith. Of all the weird places, it was in Frank Miller's "Dark Knight" series where Superman recalls Batman saying to him "Beware the envy of those not blessed." You have to both manage your blessings and then the crowd that somehow resents their presence. Too many overvalue yours and undervalue their own. 

 

I once played at a small festival and got a good reception. As I was moving aside for the next act, a little snot came up and said "You'll never be as good as Keith Emerson." I just laughed and said "Of course not. He got started early on a totally different path. Its not a sensible goal to try to be as good as a pro you admire. Instead, you aspire to it and polish your own powers. Besides, I didn't see you adding to the show. Maybe you should focus on that instead of slagging people who do." You could hear his mouth slapping shut. 😜

 

I cringe at Keith's end, because I had a dismal couple of weeks when I finally had to accept that my own hands had dropped below the two-fisted playing level. I'm glad to have had it occur at the technological cusp of Logic 8. I was never going to be a live firebrand, but IMO, that's the upgrade where Logic became much more approachable. I came to realize that while I was not a barrelhouse type of player, I had actual compositional chops. I wish Keith had been able to make that leap. He might have hit a higher peak as a composer than he had previously reached as a live rock-&-roller. He would have been a guest of honor for years.     

 

[Thethirdapple]

One and only…

 

eternal

 

PEACE

_
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[Philbo King]

OT: 

I wonder a bit about the new ELP tour...

Using stand-in players, or holograms of Lake & Emerson?

[Dave Bryce]

37 minutes ago, Philbo King said:

OT: 

I wonder a bit about the new ELP tour...

Using stand-in players, or holograms of Lake & Emerson?

 

We laughed…umm, sorry…talked about it a bit in the Keyboard Corner forum.

 

dB

[Stokely]

Agreed about (anti) social media.  Glad I don't have to use it to make a living or have a "brand".  A lot of celebrities have thicker skin than I do, because I can't and won't tolerate the legions of online trolls who seem to exist just to inflict misery on others from the safety of their basement.   Sucks that a great like Emerson got affected by the sewer that is online humanity (other than places that are actually moderated).  It sucks that kids are committing suicide in such numbers from the nastiness directed their way.

As far as who will be on tour...they'll probably just run a track with a movie standee.  Audiences don't seem to care these days.

[jazzpiano88]

I would wish that older successful artists (either still in their successful years, or in the wane of their career)  don't go anywhere near social media.  Example, do you think Joe Walsh goes near any computer forums?  No.  (I'd hope he's got his Ham station set up during tour breaks and works some DX but I have no knowledge). My impression is that 99% of anyone who's had any form of success doesn't go online looking for feedback, based on the fact that 99.99% never post anything.   That's a good thing, but there have been plenty of artists who have taken their lives over other factors. 

[Notes_Norton]

Artists are what we are, not just what we do.

 

When we spend our entire lives being what we are, and then have that rug pulled out from under us, it's sad. Some will get depressed, and some will move on. 

 

I don't think we have a special suicide potential though.

 

Othes have done the same thing when life presents what is percieved as an unsurmountable problem. People who lost their fortunes, people who lost limbs, people who experienced the horrors of war, people who lost their lover, and plenty of people we consider sane have taken the early exit. 

Keith leaves a nice legacy of work behind him. I'm sad that he was so troubled that it seemed like it was the best way out.


Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[analogika]

54 minutes ago, Notes_Norton said:

Artists are what we are, not just what we do.

 

When we spend our entire lives being what we are, and then have that rug pulled out from under us, it's sad. Some will get depressed, and some will move on. 

 

I don't think we have a special suicide potential though.

„The overall suicide rates by sex in the civilian noninstitutionalized working population were 32.0 per 100,000 among males and 8.0 per 100,000 among females. Major industry groups with the highest suicide rates included Mining (males = 72.0); Construction (males = 56.0; females = 10.4); Other Services (e.g., automotive repair; males = 50.6; females = 10.4); Arts, Entertainment, and Recreation (males = 47.9; females = 15.0); and Agriculture, Forestry, Fishing, and Hunting (males = 47.9).“

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7250a2.htm

[Notes_Norton]

Interesting. That leads to some thought.

Who would have thought automotive repair? Not me. 

Well, at least we aren't number one.

I can't speak for others, but I guess I'm lucky as I'm looking at ways to healthfully extend my life. I'm having a great time here.

 

 

Notes ♫

[zman 210]

Dave Bryce was correct. He was also a perfectionist who couldn't play up to his standard due to chronic & sometimes debilitating pain. He was a very sensitive soul who was affected by what he read by Trolls on social media. He had some upcoming shows in Japan & feared he'd disappoint people w/his playing. When you add all this up, he may have thought it was the only way to get relief. He remains my All Time Favorite Musician. When I heard about it 8 yrs. ago, I was shocked. It remains one of the saddest days of my life.

[Notes_Norton]

It's always sad when someone takes their own life. Sadder when it is someone who touched our lives, either in a direct or indirect way. I'm sure a person would have gone through a lot of mental anguish before they decided it was the only way out.

 

RIP, Thanks for the joy you gave us, and we still get when we hear your tunes, your legacy.

[Anderton]

Those who haven't experienced horrific depression may not understand that mental pain can be as bad as physical pain. If you were sitting in a cafe during an earthquake and a concrete beam fell on you, pinned you down, crushed your legs, pierced your liver, paralyzed your spine, and caused truly unbearable pain, you'd look upon dying as an upgrade.

 

The only way I know of to get through suicidal-level depression is if you can be resistant enough to understand that it comes in waves. At the peak of the wave, the mental pain can be unbearable. If you can just hold on long enough until the wave is past its peak, even if there's still serious depression, you may stick around. The truly dangerous situations are when the wave never moves off the peak for extended periods of time. Medication can provide a temporary fix, but it's never a permanent one and the depression will always return. I believe this is why some people commit suicide after going off of these drugs. They realize the incontrovertible futility of the process.

 

A corollary I see rarely discussed is that depression can remove the ability to derive joy from anything. Literally, anything. Leading a joyless existence is often the trigger for someone to wonder why they bother living when there's no incentive to continue.

 

One of the biggest issues with suicide is collateral damage, where people kick themselves endlessly wondering what they could have done. The sad truth is that in many cases (I'd guess the majority) they couldn't have done anything. They can't blame themselves, any more than they could blame themselves for not knowing how to help the person mentioned in the first paragraph who was pinned under a concrete beam.

 

Perhaps the best therapy is not to sugarcoat the situation. A lot of times people feel the pressure of thinking they should be happy, and the fact that they can't only causes the depression to spiral down further. Well-meaning people who try to cheer someone up just makes things worse, because it emphasizes the contrast between someone who's not depressed to someone who is.

 

Paradoxically, sometimes resigning yourself to the fact that you'll always be depressed prevents it from getting worse, whereas trying to fight an unbeatable foe exhausts you from the frustration of never being able to find a solution. This makes you feel even more hopeless and powerless. The only way I know of to regain some of that power is to dedicate your life to helping others. It may not solve your problems, but at least it gives you a justification to stay alive.

[Notes_Norton]

Thanks, Craig. That explains a lot.

Fortunately, I have never known anyone who was that depressed. And me? I'm just happy almost all the time - I'm lucky. I guess if I ever get there, I should make it look like an accident, to help the people that I leave behind.

On the other hand, I hope I never get there, or know anyone who is there. When people are having difficulty, my heart may cry for them, but I seldom know the right words to say. My emotions are connected to my tongue very well.

I did know a guy who had cancer, and when through years of chemo/radiation treatments. We were talking, and he said, “How do you know when it's time to pull the plug on yourself?” I had no answer, and he wasn't expecting one.

 

A few months later, he decided to quit getting treatment, and eventually passed on. I don't consider that suicide, though, he was well on his way out anyway.

Life is fragile.


Notes ♫

[Anderton]

The one upside to chronic depression is death doesn't seem so scary anymore. The phrase "rest in peace" tacitly acknowledges there is a way that people who want peace can find it. Then resting in peace becomes a feature, not a bug 🤔.

 

One possible reason for the affliction among creative people is that art almost requires getting more in touch with emotions. While that's a good thing in many ways, if you're not careful it can chip away at the defenses that keep empathy from getting out of control. Artists talk about "picking up on vibes," but at its most extreme you become hyper-sensitized to external stimuli.

 

Feeling too much can be just as dangerous to your psyche as feeling too little. Some say artists do drugs because they want to "escape," without specifying that they're trying to escape from. I think it might be when external stimuli stops being manageable, and feels more like being attacked 24/7. I suspect that might have been what Keith Emerson was experiencing.

 

Drugs add a layer of numbness that insulates the psyche somewhat from constant stimuli. But that same numbness also reduces the potential for joy, and if you can't experience joy, things just spiral down further. It's very much a negative feedback loop. Medication or drugs can treat the symptoms by interrupting the loop, but they can't get rid of the disease that causes the loop in the first place.

 

Of course this is all just a theory, I have no medical background whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

When I was young, I did drugs, including alcohol, for recreation. The object was not to escape reality, but to visit an alternative reality.

 

I know a lot of people who didn't handle the drugs well, I'm lucky, I'm in the group that handled them just fine. But I eventually got tired/bored with them. My total drug intake for the past few decades are three 4oz glasses of wine per week, and a daily dose of caffeine in coffee and/or tea.

 

Creativity? I don't write songs, I tried but am not very good at it. Probably because the words are the last thing I listen to in a song, and really are the least interesting part of the song for me, I suck and writing lyrics. But I gig a lot, and when singing or especially improvising a solo, I get into that place where there is no space, no time, no me, just the music feeling like it is flowing through me. I suppose playing music is the equivalent of my drug.

I'm lucky enough to be in demand enough to have made a living playing music most of my life (so far), I have a loving wife, so I suppose there is no reason for me to be depressed. So far—so good, anyway.

 

I had a neighbor who was married to a big-time drummer who died. She didn't get depressed, she went psycho, paranoid and eventually burned her house down. Mrs. Notes and I tried to comfort here as much as we could, and she would confide to my wife, who knows more about handling emotions than I do. The last I heard of her, some kind gentleman hit it off with her, was taking care of her, and they moved to North Carolina. I hope she's still happy.

 

 

Notes ♫

 

[KuruPrionz]

I've had my bouts of depression, it's not fun. A few years ago I decided to start taking a brisk 50 minute walk, half of it is up a slope and I do not walk slowly. That has made a HUGE difference in my emotional state, getting the endorphins to flow. Emotions are chemical reactions, keeping the chemicals moving changes my attitude in a positive direction. I understand that not all of us are blessed with the same levels of mobility. For me, I see it as "use it or lose it."

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

so I suppose there is no reason for me to be depressed

 

The nasty thing about depression is that there doesn't need to be any reason for it. Your life can be going along just fine. That makes it even worse, because if there was an identifiable problem causing it, then at least you could try attacking the source of the problem.

 

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

A few years ago I decided to start taking a brisk 50 minute walk, half of it is up a slope and I do not walk slowly.

 

I walk at least a couple miles every day and love it! I think walking has all kinds of benefits.

[ProfD]

9 hours ago, Anderton said:

Of course this is all just a theory, I have no medical background whatsoever.

Regardless of your non-medical background, your posts above are excellent in describing depression.  

 

Interestingly, the lowest rates of depression and suicide are in countries with less emphasis on academic and workplace performance, economics/finances and physical condition. 

 

Abnormalities of the brain leading to mental health issues is a very real condition.

 

Otherwise, as human beings, we can do more to create a world of happiness.  It begins and ends with love.😎

[Anderton]

3 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Otherwise, as human beings, we can do more to create a world of happiness.  It begins and ends with love.😎

 

Damn straight!!!

 

Your posts are a good example.

[Philbo King]

Attitude is a big piece of depression. 

 

When living alone, you can feel lonely, or you can feel free.  Easier said than done sometimes...

 

When I was 15 in 1970, I fell 65 feet while in some deep woods.  I had a near-death experience (too long to bring up here), and woke to find I had a 2 mile walk back to the house.  My whole body was clenched like a fist, the back of my head was a bit mushy, and my left wrist was dangling at a peculiar angle. I was in severe shock, but I made it home and my sister got me to a hospital.  They found 4 vertebrae exploded from the pressure of landing along with the fractured wrist and skull fracture.

 

Anyway...  fast forward a month, they had me strung out on pills until I got the body cast off 9 months later. 

 

Then the hard part started - getting unstrung.  I would delay taking a pill until I was soaked in sweat, but not yet into convulsions.  For months I kept increasing the delay until it stretched into several days, when I finally just stopped.  The depression was astoundingly bad, but using less harmful drugs (pot & an occasional brain reset with mushrooms) got me through it.   

 

I guess we all have 'war stories'; this was one of mine.

[KenElevenShadows]

Mayo Clinic:

 

As with many mental disorders, a variety of factors may be involved, such as:

 

Biological differences. People with depression appear to have physical changes in their brains. The significance of these changes is still uncertain, but may eventually help pinpoint causes.

 

Brain chemistry. Neurotransmitters are naturally occurring brain chemicals that likely play a role in depression. Recent research indicates that changes in the function and effect of these neurotransmitters and how they interact with neurocircuits involved in maintaining mood stability may play a significant role in depression and its treatment.

 

Hormones. Changes in the body's balance of hormones may be involved in causing or triggering depression. Hormone changes can result with pregnancy and during the weeks or months after delivery (postpartum) and from thyroid problems, menopause or a number of other conditions.

 

Inherited traits. Depression is more common in people whose blood relatives also have this condition. Researchers are trying to find genes that may be involved in causing depression.