Where does Hammond oil go?

[GRollins]

Ha!

 

Caught you.

 

Before anyone snarks, "It goes in the funnel, stupid!" that's not what I'm asking.

 

The thrust of my question is this: Once you've added oil to your Hammond, the clock starts ticking and you're supposed to add more in a year, right?

 

So, where does today's oil go? Does it evaporate? If so, then what's the stuff made of that it doesn't leave a residue? I know that, say, naptha can evaporate and leave nothing behind if it's pure enough, but it's not necessarily a good lubricant. So what's thicker than naptha that won't leave a gummy deposit? The more complex the hydrocarbon, the more likely it is to leave a mess. This stuff must be pretty simple to evaporate, yet...it takes a more complex long-chain molecule (or mixture, but one of the ingredients will need to be bigger) to be a good lubricant. An interesting conundrum.

 

Or did I miss something and you are, in fact, supposed to break down your Hammond at intervals and clean it out?

 

On a more general note, I've grown weary of the shit-flinging that's going on here. Some people just want to be ugly and I have enough bad things going on in my life right now that I don't want to be around that sort of negativity. Once I get this question resolved, I'll likely withdraw from the site as a whole. It's no longer worth it. Yes, I'll probably drop in from time to time and look around, but it won't be near as often. I've kept Keyboard Corner on a tab on my browser for years so I could glance at what's going on every day or two, even if I don't participate. I think maybe it's time for that tab to go away. It's become radioactive.

 

Now I'll sit back and watch to see how long it takes this thread to go off the rails...I don't know how they'll do it, but they'll find a way. (All the while proclaiming, "Who, me?" all wide-eyed and innocent--and also accusing me of being provocative, like I was supposed to know ahead of time that Hammond oil was some big controversy. Jeez.)

 

Grey

[Outkaster]

Well it's almost like a sewing machine viscosity oil. A lot of arguments for when you are supposed to oil I try at least once a year.  I don't play the B3 in our back room a lot honestly.  It's an electro-mechanical instrument.  A lot of seized up generators happen if it's not oiled.  Sometimes guys will find old Hammond consoles and the generators require a lot of oil and time to sit for the oil to work it's way in to the tonewheels.  I don't know too many people taking them apart unless there is an issue or for a restoration.  Leslie's on the other hand need their motors oiled. They are easy to remove and sometimes need new oiling,  tires, bearings are to be calibrated.

[mate stubb]

I've not oiled any of my tonewheel organs for years. IMO the factory recommendation for filling the cups every year leads to puddles under organs. 

 

The cups connect to strings which draw oil drops by capillary action into the generator cells, which have felt pads to soak it up and lubricate the bearings. I've not ever seen gunky buildup in those generator pads when proper Hammond oil is used. I wouldn't use 3 in 1 or sewing machine oil precisely because there is no data on long term build up.

[Delaware Dave]

2 hours ago, Outkaster said:

Leslie's on the other hand need their motors oiled. 

From the theatre organs site:

Tom Tuson, formerly of Hammond Suzuki, says this about oiling leslies: "You only need a drop, a tiny drop at that, about once a year. Remember a little oil goes a long, long, long, long way. DO NOT USE 3 in 1... Call Hammond and order Leslie oil.... I know of no light oil that you can buy in a hardware store or sewing machine shop that is light enough....."

 

I've always used hammond oil when oiling my leslie.  

[GRollins]

Me no gots Leslie...just an A-100.

 

The chorus dingus makes a repetitive clicking noise: Tik, tik, tik. Not having time to work on the thing, I'm tempted to disconnect it. I don't use the chorus anyway. Would that cause problems?

 

Grey

[mate stubb]

Electrical or mechanical clicking?

[GRollins]

Mechanical. The thing spins inside, yes? I'm thinking--not having opened it up--that the spinning arm is hitting something once per revolution. That's just supposition on my part. It's on my to-do list to look at, but it's down around #998 and there's no telling when I'll get to it. Time is dear.

 

Grey

[mate stubb]

Probably growing some metal dendrite tentacles inside the vibrato scanner. It could possibly be fixed externally with a flashing. Does the vibrato sound choppy when it's on? 

[GRollins]

Honestly, it's been so long since I used it I don't remember how it sounds.

 

How does one go about flashing a Hammond? Do I have to take my clothes off to do so? Will I be taken to court afterwards for indecent exposure?

 

Given that the thing is 60 years old or so, at least it's not under aged!

 

(Is this where the thread goes awry?)

 

Grey

[Radagast]

1 hour ago, GRollins said:

Honestly, it's been so long since I used it I don't remember how it sounds.

 

How does one go about flashing a Hammond? Do I have to take my clothes off to do so? Will I be taken to court afterwards for indecent exposure?

 

Given that the thing is 60 years old or so, at least it's not under aged!

 

(Is this where the thread goes awry?)

 

Grey

Maybe, but no one has answered your original question.  I’ve wondered the same thing.  How does the oil disappear so that the tonewheel generator needs oil again?

[jpgxk3]

IIRC there is a trough/tray that runs along the top of the generator that acts as a conduit for the threads that that absorb the oil and distribute the oil to the wheels, bearings etc in the generator. The funnels feed the oil into the tray. That 2-3 drops of oil covers a lot of parts with the lightest coating. The threads hold onto some/most of the oil in that tray.  Amazing piece of hardware under the hood and engineering. Check it out sometime. 

[Jim Alfredson]

You don't fill the cups. You put about 10 drops in each every 2 years or so.

As to where it goes, it gets spun out, most likely, and winds up in the felts and metal containers and the surrounding wood. Everything is spinning in there. 

[JoJoB3]

9 hours ago, GRollins said:

Mechanical. The thing spins inside, yes? I'm thinking--not having opened it up--that the spinning arm is hitting something once per revolution. That's just supposition on my part. It's on my to-do list to look at, but it's down around #998 and there's no telling when I'll get to it. Time is dear.

 

Grey

I guess it depends on severity but I'm willing to bet the 'ticking' you're hearing is normal scanner operation. They do make a sound.
An oiling may be due at most.  Sounds are more pronounced as well when the TG is locked down (an organ moved often should have it's TG locked down btw).
* do not over oil scanner-side (small tub above motor/scanner). Don't fill the tub, just wet the felt pad and done.

But "disconnect the scanner" as a fix?  No no.

[JoJoB3]

14 hours ago, mate stubb said:

I've not oiled any of my tonewheel organs for years. IMO the factory recommendation for filling the cups every year leads to puddles under organs. 

 

The cups connect to strings which draw oil drops by capillary action into the generator cells, which have felt pads to soak it up and lubricate the bearings. I've not ever seen gunky buildup in those generator pads when proper Hammond oil is used. I wouldn't use 3 in 1 or sewing machine oil precisely because there is no data on long term build up.

The rule of thumb of an oiling once a year (as described above by others) came about based on organs that were used daily/weekly per year.  The more often it's used the closer we adhere to a yearly oiling. Some choose to do it every 2 years.  And what's been mentioned is correct, we don't "fill the cups" with normal maintenance (there are some extreme restore/revive cases where perhaps a naptha pass and an oiling follow will free things up well).

But never refreshing the TG oil and the rig will eventually let you know (and you want to be there if/when it does).

We also pay attention to our 6x4 tubes. 

[CEB]

I oil every September. It does not take much.     You do not want the organ to go dry or the wicks may not take oil again.    Well that’s what I do which doesn’t mean much I guess.    

[CEB]

My tech got called out to a gig once.  There was an organist/bandleader who was rather well known from the area who was to play that evening and the organ wouldn’t start.  The tech arrives and asked, ‘When was the last time you oiled the organ?’   His reply was ‘Oiled, what do you mean?’   He had gigged with this Hammond forever and it had never been oiled. 
 

The back of the organ was covered with a single piece of painted leather that had the organist name on it.  The leather was nailed on with hundreds of large head upholstery tacks.     The first step was to get the back off, which took a while.   Once the back was off he he oiled the organ. Direct oiled the bearings and got the generator broke loose and told the customer not to shut it off because it may not start again.  Then got paid and went home.  
 

The tech believes the reason it ran so long without oiling was because it was the cleanest organ he had ever seen on the inside. It was pristine because the leather back kept all the dust out.  

[Outkaster]

For the record I wasn't suggesting sewing machine oil.  I just meant the viscosity is similar.  Hammond oil is the best to get.

[bjosko]

Well we all love the smell of burnt Hammond oil in the morning, aren’t we ?

Or old man’s shoe or something. Some of it are soaking inside the scanner, especially if it is over oiled. Also dripping out and into the isolation on some of the cords.
I think some of it might end up on the tonewheels and other rotating gears and will be slung off almost as fog and ending up together with the dust that seems impossible to clean up completely.

[GRollins]

See?

See?

Dammit, dB, I don't do this on purpose! I swear! I thought I was joking when I said there'd be a controversy over the confusticated oil. But, noooooo...

Grey had to go and put his damn-fool foot in it.

 

Okay, here's where things stand as of 17:34, 3/3/24:

 

Outkaster:

“...once a year.”

 

mate stubb:

“I’ve not oiled any of my tonewheel organs for years. IMO the factory recommendation for filling the cups every year leads to puddles under organs.”

 

jpgxk3:

“...2-3 drops of oil covers a lot of parts with the lightest coating.”

 

Jim Alfredson

“You don't fill the cups. You put about 10 drops in each every 2 years or so.”

 

JoJoB3:

“The more often it's used the closer we adhere to a yearly oiling. Some choose to do it every 2 years.  And what's been mentioned is correct, we don't "fill the cups" with normal maintenance…”

 

CEB:

“I oil every September. It does not take much.”

 

Grey's oil containers, both "official" Hammond oil:

"Once a year," but they don't say how much. (The containers are very different--one's a long, narrow plastic tube with graduations on the side. The other's a metal can. As I said, they're both Hammond.)

Grey's handwritten notes:

"Fill cups at each end twice, once a year." (I have no idea where I got this information.)

My original Hammond manual:

Mum's the word. If there's info in there about oiling the stupid thing, I can't find it. There's a maintenance section, but it's all about how to wipe down the keys and woodwork, not a word about oiling it.

DISCLAIMER: I'm in migraine mode and my noggin's not working so good. I may have looked straight at the oil info and not seen it.

 

And that's just the oiling/maintenance schedule. There's no consensus on where the blinkin' oil goes (my original question), either. It seems to be evenly divided between "evaporates" and "flung out." No, I'm not asking for an authoritative answer on the mechanical ticking--I haven't done my part, as far as disassembly and examination on this end. I'll take the heat for that.

 

I'm off to find some sort of chemical assistance for my head. Back in a bit to see if the trolls have started accusing me of being provocative...

 

Oh, and just to really tempt fate, lemme ask this: What kind of finish did Hammond use? Lacquer? Shellac? Varnish? My organ's wood <ahem> is in fine shape, but there are a couple of places where the finish could use a little touch-up. It looks to me as though it probably includes a stain, possibly mahogany or cherry, incorporated into the finish itself. It will take a bit of matching to get the color right. Yes, I have colors--use 'em when I'm building guitars. I use lacquer for guitars, but will try to use whatever Hammond used if possible, just to be authentic. I hate repairs--I'd rather build--but a nice instrument like this deserves to look its best.

 

Grey

[Legatoboy]

I use olive oil, just kidding.... I hate the puddles .... I put in about 4 drops every year in each cup.  

[mate stubb]

I have been told it is a lacquer finish.

[Outkaster]

Howard's Restore.  Grey are you on the Hammond Technicians forum on Facebook? It's a tough crowd but good information. 

[Delaware Dave]

3 hours ago, Outkaster said:

Howard Restore

 

👍

[GRollins]

I'm afraid that the places on my A-100 are beyond a mere touch-up pen. Cigarette burns and circular scars that might be from drinks (if alcohol dissolves the finish, then it might be shellac--but for all I know it was a container of lacquer thinner, which will attack most any finish). The bench has a few legitimate scratches, but the organ has some larger places. It will be forever before I get a chance to worry about such things. The house takes precedence at this time. And single-parenting. And all that stuff.

 

If and when I get a chance, I'll conduct some experiments in the proverbial "inconspicuous place" before committing to the places on top. As I said, I'm fortunate in that the wood is in very good condition, it's just the finish that's messed up.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

There are nasty little things called pine beetles. The female of the species chooses a (you guessed it...) pine tree in which to lay her eggs and that, my friends, is pretty much a death sentence for that tree. Why? Because that one pine beetle emits a pheromone that summons other female pine beetles to lay their eggs in that same tree. One beetle, the tree might be able to handle. Dozens, hundreds, thousands...it's over. The tree's a goner.

 

We have a situation here at Keyboard Corner not unlike that of the unfortunate pine tree. The signal went out and lurkers who were watching sensed a hospitable environment; they became members and logged in. Trolls, by their very nature, tend to urge one another on, testing the limits, saying more and more outrageous things, becoming more and more extreme. Sometimes it's easy to look at a post and say, "This one crosses the line." Other times it's just a teeny-tiny bit more extreme than the one that came before, an incremental, creeping, sly progression of toes-over-lines.

 

I've had to back away from too many threads recently. I need to keep my head together so I can deal with things here at home. I just got done talking to one of my sons, who's bravely walking into a mess tomorrow afternoon--partly listening, partly making suggestions as to how to deal with things he might run into. Just, you know, being there as a sounding board and as support. The resource. The backstop. Poppa. That's where my head needs to be, not distracted by some empty-headed nincompoop who's saying a bunch of stupid, negative crap online...and in the process summoning yet more pine beetles...er...trolls.

 

I'm only going to say this once, so clean your glasses and read carefully, okay? I do not blame dB for what's happening. Got that? Is that clear enough? I was a moderator once and it was a miserable existence. Trolls made my life hell. It started with two (I can't prove this, but I believe they knew each other out in the real world and worked together to present a concerted front), although it seemed like more, because one of them had a bunch of sock puppets. It was a whack-a-mole situation. As soon as I dealt with one, another would pop up and start being a nuisance. Then more trolls arrived. Then still more. Then I had a death in the family (not my daughter, this was longer ago than that--my mother passed, due to cancer), then another death, and it got to be too much. I resigned after a couple of years at the helm. For what it's worth, the guy who became moderator after me didn't even make it six months. It's a thankless job, especially with the world going the way it's going. My hat's off to dB. He's a better man than I am to shoulder the load and carry it for as long as he has.

 

I'm going to close my Keyboard Corner tab on my browser now. It's been there for years, always patient, always there when I needed to escape into the world of music. I'll drop back in and take a look from time to time. It'll just be a while, I think. Maybe a long while.

 

To people of good will: Thanks for putting up with all my questions and just kinda...you know...being there. That GAS that you inspired? All is forgiven. We're cool.

 

To the trolls: Fuck off. May your karma bite you on the ass as soon as you roll out of bed tomorrow morning.

 

Grey

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, GRollins said:

There are nasty little things called pine beetles. The female of the species chooses a (you guessed it...) pine tree in which to lay her eggs and that, my friends, is pretty much a death sentence for that tree. Why? Because that one pine beetle emits a pheromone that summons other female pine beetles to lay their eggs in that same tree. One beetle, the tree might be able to handle. Dozens, hundreds, thousands...it's over. The tree's a goner.

 

We have a situation here at Keyboard Corner not unlike that of the unfortunate pine tree. The signal went out and lurkers who were watching sensed a hospitable environment; they became members and logged in. Trolls, by their very nature, tend to urge one another on, testing the limits, saying more and more outrageous things, becoming more and more extreme. Sometimes it's easy to look at a post and say, "This one crosses the line." Other times it's just a teeny-tiny bit more extreme than the one that came before, an incremental, creeping, sly progression of toes-over-lines.

 

I've had to back away from too many threads recently. I need to keep my head together so I can deal with things here at home. I just got done talking to one of my sons, who's bravely walking into a mess tomorrow afternoon--partly listening, partly making suggestions as to how to deal with things he might run into. Just, you know, being there as a sounding board and as support. The resource. The backstop. Poppa. That's where my head needs to be, not distracted by some empty-headed nincompoop who's saying a bunch of stupid, negative crap online...and in the process summoning yet more pine beetles...er...trolls.

 

I'm only going to say this once, so clean your glasses and read carefully, okay? I do not blame dB for what's happening. Got that? Is that clear enough? I was a moderator once and it was a miserable existence. Trolls made my life hell. It started with two (I can't prove this, but I believe they knew each other out in the real world and worked together to present a concerted front), although it seemed like more, because one of them had a bunch of sock puppets. It was a whack-a-mole situation. As soon as I dealt with one, another would pop up and start being a nuisance. Then more trolls arrived. Then still more. Then I had a death in the family (not my daughter, this was longer ago than that--my mother passed, due to cancer), then another death, and it got to be too much. I resigned after a couple of years at the helm. For what it's worth, the guy who became moderator after me didn't even make it six months. It's a thankless job, especially with the world going the way it's going. My hat's off to dB. He's a better man than I am to shoulder the load and carry it for as long as he has.

 

I'm going to close my Keyboard Corner tab on my browser now. It's been there for years, always patient, always there when I needed to escape into the world of music. I'll drop back in and take a look from time to time. It'll just be a while, I think. Maybe a long while.

 

To people of good will: Thanks for putting up with all my questions and just kinda...you know...being there. That GAS that you inspired? All is forgiven. We're cool.

 

To the trolls: Fuck off. May your karma bite you on the ass as soon as you roll out of bed tomorrow morning.

 

Grey

Grey…

 

Please don’t go. We need sanity and kindness in this world. 

[Jim Alfredson]

On 3/3/2024 at 6:16 AM, JoJoB3 said:

I guess it depends on severity but I'm willing to bet the 'ticking' you're hearing is normal scanner operation. They do make a sound.
An oiling may be due at most.  Sounds are more pronounced as well when the TG is locked down (an organ moved often should have it's TG locked down btw).
* do not over oil scanner-side (small tub above motor/scanner). Don't fill the tub, just wet the felt pad and done.

But "disconnect the scanner" as a fix?  No no.

The scanner should not tick. 

Check to see if the threads that wick the oil from the cup on the run motor are still there. I just rebuilt a scanner where every single thread was broken. No surprise, the run motor seized up. Got everything running again, did the enamel coating on the internal scanner parts to prevent dendrites, re-threaded everything, and I'm going back to the client to install on Wednesday.
 

[JoJoB3]

3 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

The scanner should not tick. 

Check to see if the threads that wick the oil from the cup on the run motor are still there. I just rebuilt a scanner where every single thread was broken. No surprise, the run motor seized up. Got everything running again, did the enamel coating on the internal scanner parts to prevent dendrites, re-threaded everything, and I'm going back to the client to install on Wednesday.
 

Mmm, they all make a sound when the TG is tied down. Let's see A/V of the 'ticking' (if only there were a way!!).   If it's as bad as insinuated I agree, repair wicking and likely a scanner cleaning.  But again, the original reply was in re to "disconnecting it/I don't use chorus".  I don't think it's the scanner making the ticking btw.

Btw, you can apply oil to scanner via the backside cap using a syringe. Quick n dirty method but it's worked.
A light restore lighter fluid pass and an oiling via the back cap with the syringe in other cases.  Or, take it off and do a scanner clean and rebuild.

[Outkaster]

I didn't see where this thread got out of hand

[stoken6]

21 minutes ago, Outkaster said:

I didn't see where this thread got out of hand

Nor me. Good-natured differences of opinion, based on legitimate experience, do not equal trolling. I feel Grey had made up his mind to check out before he started this thread. 

 

Cheers, Mike.