New Wurlitzer

[stoken6]

6 minutes ago, pianomikeoct said:

Red lips hair and fingernails I heard she's a mean old jezebel

Stay With Me! The Faces, with the inimitable Ian McLagan on Wurlitzer. I loved his bluesy, almost arthritic approach on that song.

 

Cheers, Mike

[JoJoB3]

Given Korg's latest 'PS3300/tiny house' announcement $6k is a dream for an instrument you'll actually find use for.

[HammondDave]

McLagen was a master of the Wurly. I loved his sound so much that I purchased an Ampeg V4 stack to power my 200A

[zxcvbnm098]

8 hours ago, HammondDave said:

McLagen was a master of the Wurly. I loved his sound so much that I purchased an Ampeg V4 stack to power my 200A

Good lord, that must have sounded glorious!

[HammondDave]

3 hours ago, zxcvbnm098 said:

Good lord, that must have sounded glorious!

It did!

[Jim Alfredson]

On 2/17/2024 at 10:05 PM, JoJoB3 said:

Given Korg's latest 'PS3300/tiny house' announcement $6k is a dream for an instrument you'll actually find use for.

Anyone who thinks a modern company can make a real electro-acoustic piano with reeds, wooden keys, wooden hammers and whippens, dampers, etc. for less than $10k is dreaming.

[JoJoB3]

18 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Anyone who thinks a modern company can make a real electro-acoustic piano with reeds, wooden keys, wooden hammers and whippens, dampers, etc. for less than $10k is dreaming.

 
Perhaps minus the qualifiers -  "real electro-acoustic piano with reeds, wooden keys, wooden hammers and whippens, dampers, etc.".  
Sure some routes can change, substitutions made (espec when it comes to wider sales).

[analogika]

19 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

 
Perhaps minus the qualifiers -  "real electro-acoustic piano with reeds, wooden keys, wooden hammers and whippens, dampers, etc.".  
Sure some routes can change, substitutions made (espec when it comes to wider sales).

 

I'd add the qualifier "and make it not suck", and you're back at around five figures. 

[JoJoB3]

34 minutes ago, analogika said:

 

I'd add the qualifier "and make it not suck", and you're back at around five figures. 

And why would it suck? Do tell.

[David Emm]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:20 PM, Fleer said:

I’d say yes, and I do, but I’m an avid Pianoteqista. 

 

I just stumbled over this one. Pianoteq is a physical modeler, so its very CLEAN in comparison to "woody"-er, sampled, multi-GB instruments. Some people prefer other options for their more organic tone. I find it to be a keeper because I have always preferred brighter pianos like Yamahas. I have plenty of EP options, so I can't comment on their add-on pack.

I recommend a demo: https://www.modartt.com/try Their algorithms are fine-turned to the bone; just look at the list of pianos they've modeled, as well as a very nice acoustic guitar. The program has a laughably small system footprint, too. I suppose one high recommendation would come from Toto, whose streaming pianos were choking live. They solved it with Pianoteq. Its a pretty good testimonial.

[analogika]

44 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

And why would it suck? Do tell.

 

I dunno. There's probably a dozen possible ways to get it wrong if you cut corners. 

 

Exhibit A: Rhodes Mk 7, $3000-$5000

Exhibit B: Rhodes Mk 8, $9,500

[pianomikeoct]

I think Wurlitzer can make a cheaper electric piano if they mass produce it like they used to. I do not think these companies charging 10 thousand or more for an electric piano will be able to find a rich enough clientele to keep them in business especially how expensive everything has gotten in the past few years. There are a lot more middle class people in the world than there are people that are financially well off and I bet there are a lot more middle class people into electric pianos the well off people.

[analogika]

31 minutes ago, pianomikeoct said:

I think Wurlitzer can make a cheaper electric piano if they mass produce it like they used to. I do not think these companies charging 10 thousand or more for an electric piano will be able to find a rich enough clientele to keep them in business especially how expensive everything has gotten in the past few years. There are a lot more middle class people in the world than there are people that are financially well off and I bet there are a lot more middle class people into electric pianos the well off people.

I think you vastly overestimate the market for electromechanical pianos. It's not large enough to substantially bring down cost through mass production. Not in an age where $400 gets you a shockingly usable digital piano with an electric piano sound built in. 

Vintage Vibe is probably the most successful company building such products, with the most experience in pricing capacity vs. market demand, while remaining viable as a company. Their 73-key Vintage Vibe piano starts at $7,000 for the basic model. 

 

I was taken aback at how tiny their market was. Take a guess how many they've made? 

 

600. Six hundred. In twelve years. https://www.vintagevibe.com/blogs/news/vintage-vibe-piano-600

 

Compared to about 250,000 Rhodes Mk I - Mk V (as estimated by Harold Rhodes). 

The current Wurli hype notwithstanding: This new Wurlitzer will be hand-built for a tiny market, and it really, desperately needs to be no worse than the refurbed vintage Wurlis that are out there already. 

[pianomikeoct]

I think if the price is right there will be large market, Wurlitzers will be lighter than the Rhodes and the action on both the Rhodes and the wurlies is so much better than the the actions on other electric pianos besides great sounds, I do not know how they plan on making the new wurlies, they might ad some extra sounds and make them lighter and give them a great action, its 2024 anything is possible , they have newer materials they might use to bring the price down, as long as it plays great , sounds great and is reasonably price it will be a great seller.

[mate stubb]

It's just not fruitful for those with experience in manufacturing to try to temper the expectations of enthusiasts. They don't want to hear it. 

[JoJoB3]

10 hours ago, analogika said:

I think you vastly overestimate the market for electromechanical pianos. It's not large enough to substantially bring down cost through mass production. Not in an age where $400 gets you a shockingly usable digital piano with an electric piano sound built in. 

Vintage Vibe is probably the most successful company building such products, with the most experience in pricing capacity vs. market demand, while remaining viable as a company. Their 73-key Vintage Vibe piano starts at $7,000 for the basic model. 

 

I was taken aback at how tiny their market was. Take a guess how many they've made? 

 

600. Six hundred. In twelve years. https://www.vintagevibe.com/blogs/news/vintage-vibe-piano-600

 

Compared to about 250,000 Rhodes Mk I - Mk V (as estimated by Harold Rhodes). 

The current Wurli hype notwithstanding: This new Wurlitzer will be hand-built for a tiny market, and it really, desperately needs to be no worse than the refurbed vintage Wurlis that are out there already. 

VV provide products for and restore and enhance original vintage.  Like most I love em but they did not build a new Wurly.  Of course vintage original is had at a steep price. Iow, your premise here is for a different topic/post.  This is about the release of a new wurly.

"and it really, desperately needs to be no worse than the refurbed vintage Wurlis that are out there already."

To you - because no it does not.

examples aplenty:  The latest and greatest B3 clones today (XK5/Soul/etc) are NOT a 1:1 reproduction of a B3 and they sell a fair amount as is.  These definitely are NOT 'better than' vintage B3s. 

 

[1203]

5 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

VV provide products for and restore and enhance original vintage.  Like most I love em but they did not build a new Wurly. 

 

But they did build a completely new Rhodes-like Piano - the „Vintage Vibe Tine Electric Piano“.

[analogika]

10 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

VV provide products for and restore and enhance original vintage.  Like most I love em but they did not build a new Wurly.  Of course vintage original is had at a steep price. Iow, your premise here is for a different topic/post.  This is about the release of a new wurly.

 

Vintage Vibe pianos are their own, brand new pianos, not refurbished originals. Their well-running repair/parts business was what enabled them to build new electromechanical pianos.

Since we've had several companies re-issuing Rhodes(-like) pianos over the years (Mk7, Vintage Vibe, Mk8), and none re-issuing Wurlis, I think it makes sense to look at how that business works when trying to gauge what a "new Wurli" might mean. 

 

10 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

"and it really, desperately needs to be no worse than the refurbed vintage Wurlis that are out there already."

To you - because no it does not.

examples aplenty:  The latest and greatest B3 clones today (XK5/Soul/etc) are NOT a 1:1 reproduction of a B3 and they sell a fair amount as is.  These definitely are NOT 'better than' vintage B3s. 

 

There is literally nobody who would not prefer a vintage Hammond, given both options. The reasons that (hardware) clones exist that I can see are:
• Weight/Bulk
• Reliability
• Cost of upkeep
• Hassle of requiring recording space/noise level, and
• sometimes price (depending on the clone; some are more expensive than shopping around for a good deal on a real Hammond, plugins can be free or $50)

 

Literally none of that applies to a Wurlitzer piano except price — and there are tons of cheap or free plugins, and no way a good Wurli reissue will be cheaper than a used one. 

A reissue will be of comparable weight and bulk. A Wurli is pretty light. 

My Wurli was serviced when I got it twenty years ago, and has been rock-solid in studio and gigging ever since. I've had to replace a handful of reeds, but that applies to any reissue, as well. (They're not expensive.) 

 

I usually record it DI through a nice preamp. Sounds great. No issue with neighbours.

 

The weak spot of the Wurli, IMO is its keyboard action. And keyboard mechanics will probably be the most expensive part of any reissue. 

 

 

[Adan]

The Valente was a stab at a wurly-like electromechanical that originally sold for $3,000 and now is listed for $3,500 on the Valente website (out of stock!).  As far as I can tell, it didn't catch on. Also, though it sounds more like a wurly than it does anything else, it doesn't sound much like a wurly. But the price is a data point that illustrates an affordable electromechanical instrument can be produced.

 

Someone could disagree on the grounds that, a) the wurly mechanism is more complicated and therefore has to be more expensive, and b) Valente is not an example of a business model that actually worked. Fair enough. But it would be great to a company with more resources not just try to replicate the wurly but rather think outside the box and produce a new electromechanical keyboard that has its own unique dynamic and inspiring feel under the fingers. That is, after all, the spirit in which the rhodes and wurly were invented.

[pianomikeoct]

The wurlies I had had great actions when they were new but if you did not keep them in a place were the temperature remained the same the action would start acting up , dampness and humidity would take their toll on the wurlies but when they were working properly they were a breeze to play.

[analogika]

1 hour ago, Adan said:

The Valente was a stab at a wurly-like electromechanical that originally sold for $3,000 and now is listed for $3,500 on the Valente website (out of stock!).  As far as I can tell, it didn't catch on. Also, though it sounds more like a wurly than it does anything else, it doesn't sound much like a wurly. But the price is a data point that illustrates an affordable electromechanical instrument can be produced.

 

Thanks! — I kept trying to remember the name of that piano. Yeah, that's probably a good example. 
 

That certainly is a nice price point, but our own @Josh Paxton's  extensive review seems to bear out my intuition that the keybed is probably the component most affected by cutting costs to meet a target price: 

 

On 12/26/2020 at 11:19 PM, Josh Paxton said:

The velocity response has a mysterious 'dead zone' near the top. That is, as you go from playing softer to harder, you get to a point where instead of a sustaining note, you"ll just get a dead 'thunk' sound. But then once you hit it harder than that, you go back to getting a note again. This seems to happen more on certain keys than others, and I"m wondering if it"s something that can be adjusted and eliminated. It"s one of the things I plan on asking the company.

 

And since now you"re probably thinking 'One of the things? What are the others?', here"s the main one: the keys make a definite release noise, which is fine. What"s less fine is that for a range of keys near the bottom, that noise is pitched, and it comes out somewhere between a half and a whole step above the pitch of the note itself. Most of the time it"s not noticeable, but when it is, it"s REALLY noticeable. Like, it makes the second break in 'What"d I Say' unplayable.

 

Seems they repurposed a Fatar TP100LR digital piano keyboard, Frankensteining it with additional felts and hammers into an action that it was never designed to have, but didn't quite manage to make it work. 

 

I assume (but do not know for a fact) that the keybed and action are the biggest chunk of the Rhodes Mk8's $9,500 price tag. 

 

 

[JoJoB3]

11 hours ago, analogika said:

 

Vintage Vibe pianos are their own, brand new pianos, not refurbished originals. Their well-running repair/parts business was what enabled them to build new electromechanical pianos.

Since we've had several companies re-issuing Rhodes(-like) pianos over the years (Mk7, Vintage Vibe, Mk8), and none re-issuing Wurlis, I think it makes sense to look at how that business works when trying to gauge what a "new Wurli" might mean. 

 

 

There is literally nobody who would not prefer a vintage Hammond, given both options. The reasons that (hardware) clones exist that I can see are:
• Weight/Bulk
• Reliability
• Cost of upkeep
• Hassle of requiring recording space/noise level, and
• sometimes price (depending on the clone; some are more expensive than shopping around for a good deal on a real Hammond, plugins can be free or $50)

 

Literally none of that applies to a Wurlitzer piano except price — and there are tons of cheap or free plugins, and no way a good Wurli reissue will be cheaper than a used one. 

A reissue will be of comparable weight and bulk. A Wurli is pretty light. 

My Wurli was serviced when I got it twenty years ago, and has been rock-solid in studio and gigging ever since. I've had to replace a handful of reeds, but that applies to any reissue, as well. (They're not expensive.) 

 

I usually record it DI through a nice preamp. Sounds great. No issue with neighbours.

 

The weak spot of the Wurli, IMO is its keyboard action. And keyboard mechanics will probably be the most expensive part of any reissue. 

 

 

First, VV crew are incredible and key-folks should thank gawd people like this exist but aren't you referring to their VV piano (rhodes, 2011?). The topic is a new Wurly option, no? Let's just see what's what before jumping to "impossible/$$$/never/insane" is all.

Vintage Hammys: That list applies to Wurly and Rhodes as well (ask me how I know).  In fact, moving the full Hammond rig is actually a bit easier and faster.
Van - RoK - gig - reverse that. Can have the Ham rig unloaded and running by time leg 2 of the wurly/rhodes are being screwed in. 
Repair is fewer and faster (if needed) as well. "well crap. Some keys out of tune. Guess I'll pull out the solder and tine form and tune it ...days later".
Meanwhile can solder a db wire or more before downbeat.

I own the Wurly 206 (model with base and sustain) and my rhodes have been suitcases (preferred).
They aren't "light" (nor are their baseless brothers) and they do require a fair degree of care in moving around the earth.
Admittedly, Keyscape or Acoustic Samples has now made it's way to stage more often.  Now that's light but I think a new Wurly option is more than welcomed.

But a vintage wurly thru a Classic 30 or a twin - luscious!

[HammondDave]

20 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

But a vintage wurly thru a Classic 30 or a twin - luscious!

I would vote for a Wurlie through an Ampeg V4 (like Ian McLagen used to play). That was part of my rig in the 70’s and I chose Ampeg precisely for that reason.   I wanted THAT sound. 

 

 

[JoJoB3]

15 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

I would vote for a Wurlie through an Ampeg V4 (like Ian McLagen used to play). That was part of my rig in the 70’s and I chose Ampeg precisely for that reason.   I wanted THAT sound. 

 

That too and rightfully so.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

I would vote for a Wurlie through an Ampeg V4 (like Ian McLagen used to play). That was part of my rig in the 70’s and I chose Ampeg precisely for that reason.   I wanted THAT sound. 

 

 

Got me there. Ian McLagen's Wurli sound on Stay With Me is one of the early recordings that made me obsessed with the instrument, probably a solid decade before I ever got to play the real thing.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

21 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Vintage Hammys: That list applies to Wurly and Rhodes as well (ask me how I know).  In fact, moving the full Hammond rig is actually a bit easier and faster.
Van - RoK - gig - reverse that. Can have the Ham rig unloaded and running by time leg 2 of the wurly/rhodes are being screwed in. 
Repair is fewer and faster (if needed) as well. "well crap. Some keys out of tune. Guess I'll pull out the solder and tine form and tune it ...days later".
Meanwhile can solder a db wire or more before downbeat.

Much respect to all y'all older players who had no choice but to use the real thing -- what you are describing sounds like a literal nightmare to me and a perfect example of why my A100 stays at home. And I say that as someone who gigged with a Wurli for several years with minimal (but memorable) issues as described above. Having a good tech on call was essential.

 

 

[bjosko]

When I see those old stacks with a Wurly (or Rhodes) on top of a Hammond, I wondering, didn’t you use the sustain pedal at all, or did you extend the sustain wire ?
Back when I had my Wurlitzer, at some time, my father convinced me to take it in to repair, he couldn’t belive all the reeds I broke on gigs. Of course, there was nothing to do, other than to increase the volume. I wished I know more about tube amplifiers back then. Well, the point is that the shop that did the repair, gave me a Pianet in the meantime. I couldn’t deal with the missing sustain pedal and that sweet sound on the Pianet.

 

Today I do not use the sustain pedal as much on my clones, probably because I am more or less using my right foot on the swell pedal for the organ instead. I assume a lot of it is bad habit.

[BluesB3]

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

Much respect to all y'all older players who had no choice but to use the real thing -- what you are describing sounds like a literal nightmare to me and a perfect example of why my A100 stays at home. And I say that as someone who gigged with a Wurli for several years with minimal (but memorable) issues as described above. Having a good tech on call was essential.

 

 

Most people don't believe me when I tell them how much quicker a "real" Hammond and Leslie are to set up at a gig. If I had an enclosed trailer and a secure place to park it, I'd still be doing it. The only bummers are stairs and high stages without a ramp. The RoK's and a refrigerator dolly for the Leslie make it a piece of cake. AND now we have ADA access for most venues.

 

Let's see.... my current equipment list

CP73

sustain pedal

Nord Electro 61

Mini-Vent

switch pedal for Vent

FC7 expression pedal

K&M 18880/18881 stand

DI box

QSC K10

TS 70 speaker stand

misc. cables 1/4" and XLR and IEC

signal path:

Nord > Mini-Vent > CP73 input (Adjust input gain on back of CP73 as needed to balance Nord volume with CP73)

CP73 (1/4" TS) mono out> IMP DI box in > DI xlr out> QSC channel A xlr line in set for mic mode

 

Yeah this includes the digital piano but as you can see, it's not a "quick in, quick out" rig.

[Jim Alfredson]

The reason clonewheels exist is because vintage Hammonds are heavy, require special equipment (Roll-a-Karis) and a big vehicle (at the least a minivan) to transport, take up a lot of space on stage, and thus they present a substantial burden to someone who just wants to have some organ on a couple songs during a set. Considering that 'cloning' the drawbar sound goes back at least as far as the analog Korg B/CX3 models from the early 1980s, and people like Tony Banks dumped his L100 for a lighter T100 and then for the even lighter Prophet 5, illustrates that the need for an alternative has existed for some time.

 

The electric piano sound, on the other hand, was originally conceived to replace acoustic pianos. First we had Rhodes, then Wurlitzer, then the DX7. Then we finally got realistic piano sounds out of digital keyboards and for awhile finding anything other than the FM tines sound in any ROMpler was next to impossible as both Rhodes and Wurli tones fell out of favor. In the mid 90s there was a bit of a renaissance and you started hearing the Wurli sound again and then Rhodes. Eventually manufacturers realized people wanted those classic EP sounds. Nord partly made it's name with the Electro series due to their great EP sounds. The Yamaha Motif was the first large scale ROMpler with really good Wurli and Rhodes sounds in it. That came out over 20 years ago. So that niche has been filled for decades. If you want a lighter, digital version of a Wurlitzer electric piano, you have tons of options.

 

If you want a real Wurlitzer electric piano, there are literally tens of thousands of them out there. Yes, the prices have gone up in recent years but they are still relatively affordable if you absolutely must have the real thing. They are no more expensive than a vintage Hammond or a cool vintage polysynth or any other quality instrument.

 

While it's great that VV and Rhodes are making real electromechanical pianos, it is a very niche market and the prices reflect that. The Rhodes Mk8 starts at $9500. The VV 73 key starts at $7000. Rhodes claims they are making 500 units a year. That's tiny.  As we all know, acoustic pianos sales have been going down for decades and there's still around 30,000 sold per year in the US alone. So the market for Rhodes / Wurli recreations is incredibly small.

 

As I've noted many times before, the Wurlitzer is much more complicated than a Rhodes. It has many more parts, more electronics, requires more expertise to properly regulate, and there is currently no company making several of the core components needed to produce one, including whippens, jacks, damper arms, keybeds, pickups, reed harps, hammers, or cases. So all that would have to be engineered and manufactured.

There is no way a new electromechanical Wurlitzer on par with the old ones could come to market for less than $10k. And how is that going to compete with the tens of thousands of used Wurlitzers on the market? It would have to be far superior. How much better could you possibly make it? 

The reason the VV pianos are worth the money is that they have solved the issues with the Rhodes action inherent in its original design and they are significantly lighter. They have also improved the ability to modify the voicing. The Wurlitzer action is already really good. The only real PITA with a Wurlitzer is tuning the reeds. 

 

[David Emm]

I'm something of an outlier here, because I'm quite happy with Logic's Vintage EP. I"m also covered up with useful samples, like those from E-mu's Planet Phatt. Then there are the unexpected entries on the fringes of various softsynths and physical modelers. Its not the same as the real thing(s) I got to play over the years, but damn, its a meaty collection, often with decent dynamics. I've encountered a healthy number of evocative variations in Bank C and D of more than a few synths.

 

I once got to have a brief go at a Rhodes in sweet shape, with a built-in EQ. It had that classic, bell-like Vangelis tone. That's a defining EP moment.