Flagship board that isn’t a workstation

[Paul Woodward]

I probably should have thought more about this before posting, but it might make a useful discussion.

We buy boards depending on our needs, wants and desires. Some need certain features for gigging, others for studio, synthesis, sound creation etc.

So today I had a case of the ‘sod its’ and decided to look for a new board. I don’t gig, but would consider it. I play, compose, record etc. for fun and  don’t see the harm in having a top end board just to enjoy exploring its features creatively and for enjoyment.

So, I did a Quick Look to see what was out there and most of the flagship boards (Nord and high end synths aside) are workstations. Korg have Nautilus, Yamaha the Montage and Roland the Fantom (not really up to date with Kurzweil). These all have a lot of bells and whistles that I will never use, but start taking the sequencers away and you get into their mid range boards which just don’t have the same appeal. 
I know the perfect keyboard doesn’t exist but what is a flagship board that can do great pianos, organs and more and have full synthesis capabilities as well as expandability and future updates that can genuinely change its character/features?

Nearest to what I’m thinking is probably the Fantom 7/8, but that’s a lot of money when much of the workstation features are wasted on me.

[Docbop]

The Kronos now Nautilus is only one that calls itself a workstation, or as I've heard people comment...it's a complete recording studio inside of a keyboard.   Yamaha Montage and Roland Fantom both call themselves synthesizers not workstations.    

[ProfD]

23 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

...what is a flagship board that can do great pianos, organs and more and have full synthesis capabilities as well as expandability and future updates that can genuinely change its character/features?

Nearest to what I’m thinking is probably the Fantom 7/8, but that’s a lot of money when much of the workstation features are wasted on me.

A KB workstation is the closest thing to a flagship board.  It just has more features that you might want/need/use.

 

IMO, other than a KB workstation or ROMpler/synthesizer, you might be better served with a Nord Stage or a digital piano containing a variety of sounds and basic sound shaping capability. 

 

I'm getting a Kawai MP7SE for that very same reason.😎

[Ibarch]

The Fantom 0 is half the price of the full monty and still offers a lot of the Fantom experience. If you don't mind losing the v-piano, nyzme synth and model expansions and can accept the lesser keyboard actions, it is a good budget option. The Zen-core synth engine is pretty good and you get very deep editing options with it. I really like the VTW organs and the Roland synth sounds blow me away every time. It includes 15 free expansion libraries but I've not seen anything added to this collection for a good few years. Maybe it might get a model expansion like its big brother some day. 

 

Your 'great pianos' criteria may be more problematic. I would say the supernatural ones are good and work great in a mix with some careful EQ but great would be stretching it. As long as you don't put it side by side with a Yamaha CP4 or Kawai ES920, you may not notice that much. 

[CHarrell]

28 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I'm getting a Kawai MP7SE for that very same reason

 

Fun instrument! Too heavy for me to want to gig with, and the interface is dated, but I really enjoyed it when I had it. Tangential side note, the tremolo strings patch is one of the funniest patches I've ever heard in an instrument.

[Paul Woodward]

28 minutes ago, ProfD said:

A KB workstation is the closest thing to a flagship board.  It just has more features that you might want/need/use.

 

IMO, other than a KB workstation or ROMpler/synthesizer, you might be better served with a Nord Stage or a digital piano containing a variety of sounds and basic sound shaping capability. 

 

I'm getting a Kawai MP7SE for that very same reason.😎

I still have my Grandstage because it has great feel, pianos and some cracking sounds from the Kronos, but organs are weak…..so I have a YC61 and the pianos and organs are great, but synths are weak…so I…

You get the idea. I also have another issue or limitation as I can only fit an 88 key board (my preference) if it is only a keyboard wide with no side panel with pitch bend, mod wheel etc. I could fit a GS88, or a CP/YC88, but other options limit me to 73/76 keys. For these to be full weighted I’m limited further.

Probably the reason I haven’t upgraded these two boards yet.

[ProfD]

23 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

Fun instrument! Too heavy for me to want to gig with, and the interface is dated, but I really enjoyed it when I had it. Tangential side note, the tremolo strings patch is one of the funniest patches I've ever heard in an instrument.

I'm mainly getting the MP7SE as an alternative to schlepping my Rhodes.  Weight is a non-issue for me.😁

 

The MP definitely has a 1990s GUI but it does have the split/layer and sound shaping capability that my former SV-1 lacked. 

 

However, it is the Kawai key action that makes the MP worth the price of admission. 

 

I'll remember to check out those tremolo strings too.  Could sound cool layered with an EP sound. 😁

 

22 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I also have another issue or limitation as I can only fit an 88 key board (my preference) if it is only a keyboard wide with no side panel with pitch bend, mod wheel etc. 

I know it's an expensive piece of RED kit but the Nord Stage was designed for musicians like yourself. 

 

While the outlay may not be an issue, since a Nord Stage could replace them both in spades, selling the GrandStage and YC61 would offset the cost a bit.

 

The Nord Stage would fit in the same space as the GrandStage. 

 

Not to mention that if/when a gig ever comes up, the Nord Stage weighs next to nothing considering what's inside.  

 

I think we have found your flagship KB.  You just have to decide to place the order for it. 🤣😎

[Paul Woodward]

12 minutes ago, ProfD said:

The Nord Stage would fit in the same space as the GrandStage. 

 

Not to mention that if/when a gig ever comes up, the Nord Stage weighs next to nothing considering what's inside.  

 

I think we have found your flagship KB.  You just have to decide to place the order for it. 🤣😎

One for sale near me, doesn’t look very portable though…

 

While I don’t mind spending a bit of cash on something I can enjoy playing, £4000+ is a bit much for a board I haven’t even tried (no stores near me either).

 

[ABECK]

When I had my Jupiter-80, I considered that a flagship, but that may have just been my perception.  I actually appreciated that the interface wasn't bogged down with sequencer functionality. 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

1 hour ago, Docbop said:

The Kronos now Nautilus is only one that calls itself a workstation, or as I've heard people comment...it's a complete recording studio inside of a keyboard.   Yamaha Montage and Roland Fantom both call themselves synthesizers not workstations.    

The motifs are... So I'd bet the montage may be considered one by them as well.  I could be wrong though... (See pic)

 

 

BUT

 

The Nord Stage series definitely falls into this category. 

[ProfD]

41 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

While I don’t mind spending a bit of cash on something I can enjoy playing, £4000+ is a bit much for a board I haven’t even tried (no stores near me either).

This is a situation where it might be worth a day or overnight trip to visit a store that carries the Nord Stage.  Take it for a spin.

 

The Nord Stage cost becomes less consequential upon 1) realizing the benefits of the instrument from a musician standpoint and 2) looking at it essentially as 3 KBs in 1 (organ, acoustic/electromechanical and synth). 😎

 

 

[CHarrell]

47 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

One for sale near me, doesn’t look very portable though…

 

While I don’t mind spending a bit of cash on something I can enjoy playing, £4000+ is a bit much for a board I haven’t even tried (no stores near me either).

 

 

That's quite the custom job! 😂 I wonder if they'd be willing to separate it from that cabinet. 

 

If price is an issue, I would also double the suggestion to check out a Fantom 0-8. I'm shocked by how much they crammed in there...PHA 4 is PHA 4, but if you like it (might be difficult coming from Korg RH3), they offer so much, and if there are certain sound categories you find lacking, it's got a USB Audio interface so it'd be easy for you to hook up your iPad or other device for pianos etc.

[Paul Woodward]

Price is not an ‘issue’, I just like to justify a purchase over say, a new car, holiday or home renovation. I’m a Yorkshireman, we are known for being thrifty with money 😄

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

The motifs are... So I'd bet the montage may be considered one by them as well.  I could be wrong though... 

They call the Motifs workstations, but the Montages are not. See how each are described on this page:

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/index.html

 

Similarly, Roland calls the FA a workstation, but not the Fantom (or Juno DS)...

 

https://www.roland.com/us/categories/synthesizers/performance_workstation/

 

Based on how manufacturers categorize these boards at least, a "workstation" is a board that contains a multitrack editable linear sequencer (i.e. something you can use to create an entire composition "within the box", with minimal restrictions, not based on loops, etc.). That seems to be the defining feature of any board that has been marketed as a workstation, going back to the Korg M1 which I think introduced the term. Roland and Yamaha have moved away from this in their more recent boards, assuming these days you'd more likely want to use a computer/tablet based DAW for that kind of functionality.

[Stokely]

Yeah I've had the same thoughts.  Over the years I've owned a few different workstations and never did any work on the station.   I think I programmed one arp into one patch, that's quite literally the "fanciest" I ever got with any of them.  No sequencing, no sampling (other that downloading a couple patches that others made with samples), no drums, no fancy motion sequencing.  I'd have no way to use any of that live as we don't run a click.

If I didn't gig I'd own none of them, but that's mainly because I have embraced software for home use.  Love having my synth controls on a 32" monitor and the sound and flexibility is great.   The effects possibilities alone with software make it a no-brainer for me--they truly change the game.  No keyboard has even close to the quality and depth of effects I have in plugin form, and to get all that in hardware would be hugely expensive.    I am using an older flagship (Kurzweil pc361 that has a broken screen and a couple other issues) as a midi controller though, as it's key action is fantastic.

 

I still don't like software live though, even being very familiar with it, owning a lot of nice plugins, and knowing that many others do it.  Just not a fan.

 

I am now using a Nord Stage 3 compact, which is as close as I've found in a single keyboard that does all the sounds and (most) of the splits and layering I need without any fluff.  I say "most" because there are a couple songs where I have to use multiple patches due to the limitations but that is quite rare.

[ProfD]

10 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Over the years I've owned a few different workstations and never did any work on the station.

Hilarious.🤣

 

But, you're not alone in that regard. 

 

Most gigging musicians hardly use the features in a workstation.  The abundance of sounds in workstations had been the draw. 

 

Now that manufacturers have stripped KBs down to essentials and priced them accordingly, musicians don't have to pay workstation prices for bread & butter sounds. 

 

A perfect example of the strip down is the Fantom-0X and Fantom-X and to a different degree, the MODX and Montage M.

 

Nowadays, the real secret is that digital pianos have enough sounds to cover most gigs especially for musicians who do little to no sound programming.

 

That applies to musicians who sell or trade KB workstations and ROMplers with no customized user banks and/or all of the factory settings intact.😁😎

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

what is a flagship board that can do great pianos, organs and more and have full synthesis capabilities as well as expandability and future updates that can genuinely change its character/features?

Nearest to what I’m thinking is probably the Fantom 7/8, but that’s a lot of money when much of the workstation features are wasted on me.

5 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I still have my Grandstage because it has great feel, pianos and some cracking sounds from the Kronos, but organs are weak…..so I have a YC61 and the pianos and organs are great, but synths are weak…so I…

You get the idea. I also have another issue or limitation as I can only fit an 88 key board (my preference) if it is only a keyboard wide with no side panel with pitch bend, mod wheel etc. I could fit a GS88, or a CP/YC88, but other options limit me to 73/76 keys. For these to be full weighted I’m limited further.

Workstation (full-functioned compositional sequencer) or not, what you want will be hard to find. The Fantom7/8 you mentioned misses the mark because the 8 is too wide, and the 7 does not have the fully weighted (hammer action) keys. In current or at least somewhat recent boards, I think the closest to what you want would be Kronos 73 (kind of a much more versatile/programmable version of your Grandstage); Kurzweil PC4, K2700, Forte 7; Nord Stage 4 or 3 (in their non-SW variants). Even then, it is sometimes a judgment call as to whether a particular one of these has "great" pianos, "great" organs, "full" synthesis capabilities, and "expandability and future updates that can genuinely change its character/features." Operationally, Nord is the only one that (like your Grandstage and YC) avoids lots of menu navigation. Honestly, I think ProfD is right, the best (and possibly only) board likely to satisfy you is the NS4, either 88 or HA73. And even then, you'll probably find that some sounds lag behind what's in your GS/YC combo (e.g. orchestral sounds). But it will excel in the areas you asked about, piano/organ/synth.

[drawback]

28 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

In current or at least somewhat recent boards, I think the closest to what you want would be Kronos 73 (kind of a much more versatile/programmable version of your Grandstage)

This is what I’ve found, and it sure works for me. Good call.

[wd8dky]

Korg SV-2?

[Paul Woodward]

7 hours ago, wd8dky said:

Korg SV-2?

Can’t see it providing much more than the Grandstage in terms of synths etc. I always assumed the Grandstage was a more versatile board than the SV with its 7 sound engines from the Kronos.

The Kronos is a good shout and one I always considered, but lots of workstation features I don’t need, and it’s an old and now discontinued board, also the Nautilus never really floated my boat. I would want to start this leg of the journey on something newer with ‘some’ future updates.

Given the cost of the Nord Stage 4 and that only the Yamaha M8 is a recent flagship board (Fantom is nearly 5 years old now), it looks like I will have to wait and see if anything is announced this year or just sit on what I have a bit longer.

Discussions like this are a great help of course, especially when it’s so hard to find a store nowadays where you can just sit and try them all out first hand.

I love my Grandstage and it sits nicely under a lift up desk for a bit of piano practice and playing into a DAW. The YC is (was) a gigging board that I enjoy playing once in a while, and I have a Roland A800 for making a light rig with the YC.
Looking for the ‘board to replace them all’ seems to be an annual mission, and I don’t think I have managed it since I bought the Alesis Fusion 88 a long time ago effectively as a poor man’s Korg Oasys. We still keep trying though.

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

...it looks like I will have to wait and see if anything is announced this year or just sit on what I have a bit longer.

 

Discussions like this are a great help of course, especially when it’s so hard to find a store nowadays where you can just sit and try them all out first hand.

Looking for the ‘board to replace them all’ seems to be an annual mission...

The whole exercise is free 99.  It doesn't cost anything to ponder. 😎

[CEB]

Workstation…. Not a Workstation…. Marketing labels and language in general has lost meaning and suffered from the loss of codification.   Hell there are societies that can’t even define what a woman is any longer.   
 

Just list everything in a checklist and reconcile what features you want and the prioritize those features.  That’s how I switched from Yamaha to Kronos.  

[Ibarch]

9 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Discussions like this are a great help of course, especially when it’s so hard to find a store nowadays where you can just sit and try them all out first hand.

 

Last time I was in the Leeds branch of PMT, they had the Nord Stage 4, Roland Fantom 8, Roland Fantom 08, Korg Nautilus SE, Yamaha ModX (I think, a Yamaha something anyway) in addition to a range of synths inckuding  a PolyBrute, Hydrasynth Deluxe, and even a latest issue Mini Moog. They were all available to play. I was quite taken aback. They even had a Roland rep working the floor.

 

It's not too far from your end of Yorkshire. If you avoid school holidays when the kids come out to make their beats, you usually can play as long as you want. I've found the staff pretty helpful too. 

 

There's nothing like getting hands on to see what stands out. 

 

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

Thanks for the heads up. I was just looking at PMT today. You can check what they have in stock at various stores so Leeds is the nearest, although not necessarily the easiest to get to. Will do a bit more research before heading over. 

[Synthaholic]

22 hours ago, ProfD said:

This is a situation where it might be worth a day or overnight trip to visit a store that carries the Nord Stage.  Take it for a spin.

 

The Nord Stage cost becomes less consequential upon 1) realizing the benefits of the instrument from a musician standpoint and 2) looking at it essentially as 3 KBs in 1 (organ, acoustic/electromechanical and synth). 😎

 

 

I was just at Chuck Levin's at the end of September and I could have sworn I saw a Nord Stage there. Worth a call, since you're D.C. area.

[Synthaholic]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

Hell there are societies that can’t even define what a woman is any longer.  

But every one of them can define what a female is.

[ProfD]

6 minutes ago, Synthaholic said:

I was just at Chuck Levin's at the end of September and I could have sworn I saw a Nord Stage there. Worth a call, since you're D.C. area.

Chuck's is another home away from my house.  I'm a celebrity there.🤣 

 

I was advising Paul who is across the pond to take a trip to one of his local music stores in order to try out the Nord Stage.😎

[Synthaholic]

6 hours ago, ProfD said:

Chuck's is another home away from my house.  I'm a celebrity there.🤣 

 

I was advising Paul who is across the pond to take a trip to one of his local music stores in order to try out the Nord Stage.😎

Ahh, sorry, I misread. I sometimes think that if internet shopping was taxed in the beginning we would still have stocked music stores to visit.

[Paul Woodward]

Less bargains to be had in stores too. Looked at PMT clearance and they have a Yamaha CP300 at £1300. That’s a really old board and they go for a few hundred pounds on marketplace. Great in its time, but who wants to lug 33kg of piano that has just a few sounds and limited poly.

A lot of their prices are well over internet only prices and another reason stores close. Catch 22 really.