Voicing question for jazzier guys than me

[BluesB3]

The new band is working out pretty well. Mostly well chosen covers but the guitar player has a nice breezy original tune with jazzy chords. Unfortunately he's not enough theory conversant to write me out a good chord chart. With a little bit of prodding, he has communicated the first chord in the progress is an A6/9. He sent me this diagram of the guitar fingering. I'm playing on the organ but I tried on my Wurly at home (since the rest of my gear is at the rehearsal place) and it sounds a little clumsy with the A on the bottom. Next I dropped the A from the right hand and moved it an octave to the left hand and that opened it a little but then I tried it with B-C#-F#-A and it sounded a little better.

 

So the question is should I just play it  as shell voicing with the C#-F#-B, and hope the bass player establishes the root? Is there a better way to approach it?

 

[Josh Paxton]

There's no objectively right or wrong answer to this, since it depends so much on context, and really on what you think sounds good. But as a general guideline, assuming the bass player is playing the root, then there's no need for you to include it in your voicing. And if you do include it, then while there are no hard and fast rules, I'd say chances are exceedingly good that you don't want to play it in the same range as the bass player (unless you're intentionally doubling the bass line, of course).

 

Beyond that, the best advice I can offer you is, try different options and see what you like. A tightly closed voicing (from the bottom up, B-C#-E-F#) will give you a particular sound. Spreading it out a bit (F#-C#-E-B) will give you a different sound. Stacked fourths (C#-F#-B-E) will give you yet a different sound. Stacked fifths (E-B-F#-C#) will give you yet a different sound. Doubling certain notes will give you different sounds. Playing a shell voicing in the left hand and some sort of upper structure (triad, octave with a fifth, stacked fourths, etc.) in the right will open up many options. Then there's the matter of what range(s) you put it in, which can vary things radically. Then there are questions like, do you really need both the 6 and the 9 at all times, and do you really need to leave out the major 7 and/or the #11? Do you need the 5th in there at all? How much do you want to keep a consistent voicing versus changing it up? And then of course there's the timbre of your instrument (piano, EP, organ, Clav, polysynth, other?), which will play a huge role.

 

In the event that this response has not made your life any easier and has only exacerbated your existential dread, well, on one hand, I'm sorry. But on the other, welcome to music.

[DroptopBroham]

Why wouldn't you just play an A13 and call it a day? If it sounds too thicc for you on organ, drop the 9th. What am I missing here? 

[Baldwin Funster]

Try pushing the middle drawbars in so you're left with a whistle. Think One Headlight.  Turn on leslie fast and play about 2 notes per chord but avoid the 3rd or 5th. Or the 1. 

Stay behind guitar in level. Not really phosisticated jazz advice, more like organ survival advice.

[Morizzle]

14 hours ago, DroptopBroham said:

Why wouldn't you just play an A13 and call it a day? If it sounds too thicc for you on organ, drop the 9th. What am I missing here? 

A13 is a dominant chord with a minor 7th, A 6/9 is more of a tonic/subdominant flavor.

[harmonizer]

When I transcribed a piano part to play for Steely Dan's "Home At Last", the voicings I chose were largely influenced by what note I wanted to be on top and thus most noticeable. Sometimes a sequence of different chords sounds better when the top note stays the same for 2 or more chords in a row, and sometimes the movement of that top note at the right time is an important choice.

Good advice was given above to leave out certain notes, with the root and 5th being leading candidates to leave out. You don't HAVE to leave them out, but if the chords have lots of upper extensions (6th, 7th, 9th, 11th) it is likely that you will want to leave out notes like the root and 5th, because you are trying to get the jazzier colors of those chords to be heard. The bass is probably playing the root, and there is a tendency of a listener to hear the 5th even if it's not being played.

Decide whether you will be playing long held notes, or something very percussive (with sound gaps in between). You might choose some busier chord voicings if you are playing percussive hits with sound gaps in between them. 

[Baldwin Funster]

2 hours ago, harmonizer said:

When I transcribed a piano part to play for Steely Dan's "Home At Last", the voicings I chose were largely influenced by what note I wanted to be on top and thus most noticeable. Sometimes a sequence of different chords sounds better when the top note stays the same for 2 or more chords in a row, and sometimes the movement of that top note at the right time is an important choice.

Good advice was given above to leave out certain notes, with the root and 5th being leading candidates to leave out. You don't HAVE to leave them out, but if the chords have lots of upper extensions (6th, 7th, 9th, 11th) it is likely that you will want to leave out notes like the root and 5th, because you are trying to get the jazzier colors of those chords to be heard. The bass is probably playing the root, and there is a tendency of a listener to hear the 5th even if it's not being played.

Decide whether you will be playing long held notes, or something very percussive (with sound gaps in between). You might choose some busier chord voicings if you are playing percussive hits with sound gaps in between them. 

In addition to this I would add that the organ as an instrument is like a harmonic black hole. If you play a fifth or other strong harmonics in chords that the guitar is also playing, it will pull the ear to that and perhaps color the overall results of the ensemble chord (the chord created by the whole band, not you as individuals). The OP didn't specify organ but I somehow got that impression. 

There's a big difference playing chords in a jazzy organ trio vs backing a guitar player and trying to find a sweet blend. 

It's a struggle even finding a sweet spot in jump blues.

 

[Floyd Tatum]

I haven't read the whole thread, so hope I'm not repeating something.   I like that (from bottom to top) C# F# B voicing that you mentioned.   The bass player should be playing the A root, or if not, then establishing the key of A some other way - that's his gig.  What part of the neck are you playing that voicing on?   Shouldn't be too low.   On the piano, that voicing would sound good if the C# is the one a semitone above middle C, then the rest of those notes are fourths apart (going upwards).  Although, I'm sure it would also probably sound good even if the intervals are not necessarily fourths apart.   Not being a fluent guitarist (just a beginner), I can't help you out with the neck, except for what I just said.

 

BTW, as a pianist who is also a student of jazz guitar, I'd be interested to know your definition of a shell voicing.  I thought that was a two-note voicing, for example, if the chord is C7, then the shell voicing would be Bb E, or E Bb.   You seem to be talking about shell voicings with more than two notes.   So, please edumacate me!

 

[BluesB3]

7 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

In addition to this I would add that the organ as an instrument is like a harmonic black hole. If you play a fifth or other strong harmonics in chords that the guitar is also playing, it will pull the ear to that and perhaps color the overall results of the ensemble chord (the chord created by the whole band, not you as individuals). The OP didn't specify organ but I somehow got that impression. 

There's a big difference playing chords in a jazzy organ trio vs backing a guitar player and trying to find a sweet blend. 

It's a struggle even finding a sweet spot in jump blues.

 

Yes it's organ on this particular tune.

[BluesB3]

I'm not very schooled so maybe I'm using the term "shell voicing" incorrectly. I guessed that if a chord had two extensions (A6/9) that the shell could consist of three notes. IDK?

[Legatoboy]

8 hours ago, BluesB3 said:

I'm not very schooled so maybe I'm using the term "shell voicing" incorrectly. I guessed that if a chord had two extensions (A6/9) that the shell could consist of three notes. IDK?

I just looked this up, it is important:

"A shell voicing is a chord which contains only the root, third, and seventh. Players will often only use two notes, the root and third, or the root and seventh. Because the fifth of a chord is not significant in differentiating minor or major chord, it is omitted in a shell voicing chord."

 

I was taught above as  a basic starting point (shell) for Russel Garcia style voicings... and then you fill in what you want for  upper extended chord tones above in the RH .. 9,11,13  as a primer voicing, starting point ... my favorite minor with this approach was suggested to me as minor 7 voicing for the Gm7 in ' I'll Remember April' 

LH 1/9 RH b3,b7,11 ..(*where the RH b3 overlaps the LH 9) ....to thick, try drop 3, put the b3 in your LH....work it around the logical combinations... I am no super expert on chord voicing by any means.. I don't you have to be.   

 

A Drop 3 voicing may work, depending on the tune where you voice the third in the bass or the drop 2 in your LH... the second cord tone here functioning as the 9 in  drop 2, as I understand it looking at the cord 'closed' ... that's how that works I believe and the bass player is voicing the root.. so it varies but all this from everyone should help you get the voicing concepts... it's really not rocket science in alot of ways in the end I came to realize and felt before I understood that exactly as you do, but an older player really put it in very plain terms to me... it is a bit of trial and error to find the right voicing though... it not written in a text book as here: 'use this direct application of this voicing' ....I'm sure somewhere compositional terms those things apply in music acedemia...but not really in everyday application really......it took me a while to understand that myself   

 

on organ you could lesson the load on the low end with the Joey D. trick and set your drawbars up a 686 for the 1st three, make it as transparant as posible w/o loseing mix presence, voice a rooted chord or root 6.....see how it blends. that is possible on organ. It's  a bit more difficult on piano over a certian range to unthicken piano tones...   With the guitarist, lord knows what type of sound he is getting out of the instrument, it can vary and just see sonically how lets say 6 voicings you work up before hand work with him  one on one in a little off project, actually the bassplayer would need to be involved also.. so 3 of you.... but understand, it may even sound better doubling the root on top for some reason strange based on context and how the instrumets mix sonically and all the variables of each of your sounds, touch, the tune ....there are as already said 'no specific academic rules' in actually application ..other than ears for the most part and spending the time  

 

[Floyd Tatum]

I just googled it too, and found the same definition: "A shell voicing is a chord which contains only the root, third, and seventh. Players will often only use two notes, the root and third, or the root and seventh. Because the fifth of a chord is not significant in differentiating minor or major chord, it is omitted in a shell voicing chord."

That makes sense to me, although I was looking at it in terms of assuming there's a bass player that's taking care of the root, meaning as a chord player (guitar or piano),  you only need play the third and seventh.   Between bass and pno(or gtr), those three notes give enough information to define the chord, everything else is kind of "season to taste".

In my experience, there's some jazz players who seem to consider that a hard and fast rule, i.e., "don't tell me what extensions to play".  I basically agree with that view, but for me, I think there are certain occasions where it's ok to ask for specific extensions.   Either because the piece demands it, or just for a change of pace so that you're not always doing things the same way.   I could go on and on about this, but I'll stop there!

 

[CEB]

Shell voicings in combos according to what I do most often … play the three, the seven and the highest interval/extension.    But that is just me,  I don’t know anything.  
 

Rock and Rock/Blues with only one guitar I will lean toward median voicings.  Sometimes with fifth chords on the bottom.  You are often a keyboardist/rhythm guitarist.   Remember that Leslie breakup is  function of not only the swell pedal but also the notes you push through it.   That last part is the first great piece of advice I ever got from John Goadsby.  But this ain’t Jazzy stuff.  

[Docbop]

Could use the Stefon Harris vibest/piano and instructor view and call it a Triad Plus One.     A triad and a color tone so in this case a F# minor triad and B color tone.   Always lots of ways to view collections of notes. 

[bfields]

If I was the bass player I'd play a B and call it a suspended 7th.

 

Maybe.

 

As the keyboardist I think I'd go with trial and error, and one note at a time--the guitarist's already covering the chords, right?

[Adam Burgess]

When working with guitarists, there's always that classic case of not quite major or minor in bluesy stuff… So, yes choose the better 'dominant' notes.

I'd have no qualms about B C# F# over an A6/9, but then to thicken it, I wouldn't say no to B C# (E) F# A, or just a nice 'containing' high E on it's own…

All about context… Where's it going, and, where has it come from?