50 years ago today... Head Hunters

[jazzpiano88]

34 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

You're talking about Chameleon right? A bebop solo? Herbie mostly solos over a two chord vamp - Bb min/Db11. Does it really sound to you like the tune takes a stylistic left turn there? It's the same funky Herbie from where I listen.

 

Yeah, it's a gradual thing for me.   When exposed alone like the above clip it doesn't belong with the first and last 4 minutes of the recording.  and the strings hit me first and foremost.   Sorry about that if I'm wrong.

 

 

[zephonic]

2 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I don't know.   I guess I don't really get the point of Herbie ripping through a bebop solo (is that what you'd call it?) in the middle section of a predominantly two chord funk/disco tune with the strings sawing away.     Maybe that's why you don't hear that portion much because it's not needed and out of place?

 

Really? I would have thought that is one of the most iconic Rhodes solos ever. I think more than any it defined how the instrument should sound.

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

My main beef with all this is that at most gigs or jams, you have multiple soloists (usually horns) playing for multiple minutes on a two-chord vamp.

Too many horns...therein lies the problem sitting perfectly atop the weeds.🤣

 

Non-KB playing soloists definitely won't be clamoring to play the middle section because it's not about them.😁

 

Herbie Hancock was a Jazz musician on Columbia Records.

 

From a music industry perspective, I'm certain the suits at Columbia wanted commercially viable recordings i.e. radio-friendly tunes. 

 

As a artist/musician, Herbie was given a certain amount to of creative freedom with his music as long as he delivered something that could sell.

 

I can see the musician in Herbie sticking that middle section in Chameleon for all of his Jazz peers and friends and snobs who may have otherwise dismissed the tune as a 2 chord Funk jam.😁😎 

 

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

8 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Really? I would have thought that is one of the most iconic Rhodes solos ever. I think more than any it defined how the instrument should sound for multiple generations of players. 

 

It could be.   I wasn't exposed to it and I don't really find it especially musical in that I don't find anything you can hum or sing to.  To me it's a solo improv combining his jazz chops and some Bob James type licks.

 

For me, Deodato was more of a guy who introduced the Rhodes to the public in the early 72s with 2001.   I don't know much about him, but maybe he co-opted that deal from Herbie.

 

[NewImprov]

On 10/30/2023 at 1:28 PM, franky64 said:

post Disco, pre Disco .... love Future Shock 'modernised fusion'.
than this "Future-2-Future Live" DVD (it's on YT but DVD has amazing 5.1 experience): a flight through modal and chromatic free jazz, spiritual concepts, hiphop turntable breaks, vocoded groove, world music, transcendental synth noise sound scapes and instrumental solos - a harmonical and rhythmical all-day journey packed in two hours that always leaves me physically exhausted.
 

 

The Future2Future concert DVD is one of my all-time favorite concert films, just an astounding fusion of music and technology, and a really amazing band. I saw an early stop of this tour in Portland, it might have been the first night, and the show was plagued by a ton of technical glitches, video synch problems, monitor issues, etc. You could see the band struggling, and Herbie was clearly not enjoying himself. But it had some transcendent moments nonetheless.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Herbie Hancock was a Jazz musician on Columbia Records.

 

From a music industry perspective, I'm certain the suits at Columbia wanted commercially viable recordings i.e. radio-friendly tunes. 

 

As a artist/musician, Herbie was given a certain amount to of creative freedom with his music as long as he delivered something that could sell.

 

I can see the musician in Herbie sticking that middle section in Chameleon for all of his Jazz peers and friends and snobs who may have otherwise dismissed the tune as a 2 chord Funk jam.😁😎 

 

That's quite the insight you have into Herbie's mindset. Let me understand this: he was so ashamed of selling out (because the record co. execs told him to) that he put that middle section there to make sure us snobbish jazz peers wouldn't think less of him. Is that about right?

[ProfD]

4 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

That's quite the insight you have into Herbie's mindset. Let me understand this: he was so ashamed of selling out (because the record co. execs told him to) that he put that middle section there to make sure us snobbish jazz peers wouldn't think less of him. Is that about right?

No insight into Herbie's mindset. I was mostly joking.😁😎

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I don't really find it especially musical in that I don't find anything you can hum or sing to.

 

I can't hum or sing to Bird's solo on Cherokee. Or Trane's solo on Giant Steps or A Love Supreme. Your handle has the word "jazz" in it – I guess I'm a little confused. 🙂 

[jazzpiano88]

“Humming or singing to” was not my best criteria for musical.   Although I could see someone trying to sing/scat the Bird solo.  One of the most musical things I’ve ever heard.  Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been done.    
 

I may get to work on my handle.  I’ve come to really despise the word as it really has no useful meaning to me.

[cedar]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I can't hum or sing to Bird's solo on Cherokee. Or Trane's solo on Giant Steps or A Love Supreme. Your handle has the word "jazz" in it – I guess I'm a little confused. 🙂 

 

Does this help?

 

https://youtu.be/QZKd1kMTkxU

 

(PS: I can't tell if JazzPiano88 is baiting you or really believes the solo is "not especially musical")

[jazzpiano88]

I should have stayed out of the "middle section" debate rabbit hole of Chameleon.   I saw "it's too long", "no talent posers can't play it", this that and the other thing, and in-artfully tried to say maybe it's just not that good (to my ears).  No disrespect to Cyber, OP or those that dig it.   I'll stop digging.

 

 

[CyberGene]

Middle section aside, I have always hated it when Chamelon is called on jam sessions with the common section (Bbm7 - Eb7 chords) because I just can't improvise over one or two chords. I guess it shows right away that I am not good at improvisation 😕 I feel much more at home with more complex changes because I'm kind of good with theory, applying scales and outlines, reharmonization, hip voicing, bebop patterns, etc which makes it sound like I know what I'm doing (or maybe it's just me being delusional...) and so it manages to hide how much I suck at actual improvisation. It's just amazing that whenever I'm with other amateurs, they always call for Chameleon, simple blues or So What (I suck even more with modal... 😕) even though it's apparent how hopeless we all are.

 

I've tried to analyze the above situation and I think there are basically two aspects of jazz improvisation:

1. Intuition, imagination, musicality

2. Theory, thinking, analysis

 

There are people who are good with the first, they are intuitive improvisers (or generally they are musically gifted), they hear things well in their head, some of them are very successful in rock, pop, etc., however they are not very good with theory and you can see/hear that when they try playing (more complex) jazz.

 

Then there are people who are very good with theory, they know their scales and stuff, some of them practice a lot and can combine mind boggling licks on top of complex changes but it all sounds way too artificial.

 

And then there are the jazz giants we all know who are brilliant at both. (and of course there are people in between, some of them world-class jazz players but not trend setters)

 

----

 

Back to the two-chord stuff. I can see why one might not like the Rhodes solo in Chameleon, maybe they have a preference for more linearly built solos over more complex changes and that's OK. Given the particular challenge though (a funk piece with two chords, because the middle section is still two-chord driven), try to produce a convincing 5-minute solo that would create a cult. That's something only Herbie can do. And I'm biased again 😀

[jarrell]

To me Herbie's solo on Chamelon is "iconic Herbie". The melodic inside/outside lines, funky groove in the lines, even the 2 chord progression (no stale I IV or V I, but a 3rd apart and of course the second one a sus chord) - all done in a thoughtful, relaxed and playful way... I love how the strings come in and provide a nice backdrop just a taste. Of course the rest of the rhythm section kept the groove, Paul Jackson and Harvey Mason - and finally, nice Rhodes sound.

 

Soloing over one or two chords is its own challenge, different from a tune with a lot of changes. Then again it is different when there is no other chordal instrument, like here, where you are free to harmonically go in various directions. If there was for example a guitarist comping behind you, you'd likely be more harmonically constricted, depending on the guitarist. Still whatever the situation is, the challenge is always how to be creative in the moment, given what is happening around you...

[ProfD]

7 minutes ago, jarrell said:

Soloing over one or two chords is its own challenge, different from a tune with a lot of changes.

Exactly. 

 

Musicians relying on scales, licks and tricks will run out of chess moves PDQ (pretty d8mn quick) and end up bored or repetitive or as James Brown sang, talking loud and saying nothing.🤣

 

The key to a meaningful solo is approaching from a 1) lyrical and 2) rhythmic perspective.  Those two devices open up a world of solo possibilities regardless of whether it's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 or 7 chords.😁😎

[Reezekeys]

Of course Herbie is a master at going "outside" a chord in his lines too. That's what keeps things interesting, along with those interludes of 7/8 bars followed by bars of 3 with those shifting key centers. All stuff you will likely never hear at your local jazz jam when someone calls this tune!

[CrossRhodes]

I'm with the OP, it's a masterpiece. 70's Herbie is endlessly inspiring to me. Per the discussion about Chameleon and the "solo" section, it's good to keep in mind that was just what was recorded on that particular day, in that particular headspace. There are so many great live versions where you can hear Hancock and his bandmates switching up the vibe to be in the moment.
 

 

[zephonic]

^^^ Man, even Herbie doesn’t play the tricky part live!

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, zephonic said:

^^^ Man, even Herbie doesn’t play the tricky part live!

On that video, it looks and sounds like the whole band smoked the best weed they could find and fell into a groove. 😁😎

[Doerfler]

20 minutes ago, ProfD said:

On that video, it looks and sounds like the whole band smoked the best weed they could find and fell into a groove. 😁😎

were this to be true, in 1974 Germany it would have been hashish, most likely. Black variety, with white specks (opiated). Not that I know anything about this. 

[jazzpiano88]

6 minutes ago, Doerfler said:

29 minutes ago, ProfD said:

On that video, it looks and sounds like the whole band smoked the best weed they could find and fell into a groove. 😁😎

were this to be true, in 1974 Germany it would have been hashish, most likely. Black variety, with white specks (opiated). Not that I know anything about this. 

 

The triangle player was able to carry more stash than the bass clarinetist, so they left him at La Guardia.

[tapes]

Herbie is possibly my biggest musical idol and certainly my biggest inspiration. It all started for me - along with my love for jazz - when I went to the store and got four jazz albums completely at random. They were Kind Of Blue (1959), Nefertiti (1968), Speak Like A Child (1968) and Head Hunters (1973). Especially the latter two blew my mind. I was like, who is this guy - I've never heard anyone play like this! And it's funny, the piano solo on the title track to SLaC is kind of funky, too.

 

The "sell out" argument is hilarious, when talking about Head Hunters. And he got a lot of flak back then for doing the album, from the so-called jazz purists. Even the fact that "Chameleon" became the "hit" (although shortened, as discussed above) - and even though the "Watermelon Man" remake is more hit-like in my opinion! The album also has some straight up nasty funk in "Sly" (my other favourite track) and the spacey cinematic weirdness of "Vein Melter".

 

It's also funny that this album was Herbie's supposed take on James Brown and Sly Stone, after being too avant-garde with Mwandishi, in his opinion. Because you couldn't get more jazzy and hip than what he plays on "Chameleon" or "Sly". I agree with the other earlier posts here that not only did this album DEFY what jazz-funk is supposed to be, that Rhodes solo defied - wrote the book - on how that instrument is supposed to be played in this context. His time feel is just pure bliss. And when he goes "out" briefly...man. Even the ARP Solina strings are essential somehow.

 

Head Hunters was also such a gigantic album, that I had it really hard to listen other jazz-funk albums of the era, after that. They all seemed to sound watered down somehow. Like, that's not how you play a Rhodes solo on this stuff, go back and listen to Herbie 😄

 

It's also a real shame that this is the only album Harvey Mason did with them. Mike Clark was a beast, though, and you probably wouldn't have Thrust (1974) without Mike Clark. Herbie has said the tune "Actual Proof" was written solely for Mike Clark's drumming style.

 

But if you play "Chameleon", you MUST do all the sections! I've seen him live many times in recent years, and "Chameleon" is still a staple - but I don't think they do the odd-meter sections now either, they just play the crowd-pleasing version as an encore mostly 😄

[CyberGene]

22 minutes ago, tapes said:

It's also funny that this album was Herbie's supposed take on James Brown and Sly Stone, after being too avant-garde with Mwandishi, in his opinion

Many years ago on Wikipedia I read that Herbie had just adopted Buddhism which contributed to him wanting to make music that has more humanistic values and would positively appeal to more people, in contrast to the elitist jazz he used to play prior to that. I'm not sure who wrote that and whether it was based on an opinion Herbie himself has expressed (regarding Buddhism), or maybe it was some guy's wishful thinking (anybody can edit on Wikipedia, as is well known). However that's not in the Wiki article anymore. Nevertheless, it has left an impression on me and I've always wanted to research Buddhism more, and check whether there can be any truth to that statement.

[CyberGene]

Found some interesting article on how Herbie and his Buddhist practices led to the Head Hunters:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/herbie-hancock-head-hunters-chameleon-live-981695/

[CrossRhodes]

5 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Found some interesting article on how Herbie and his Buddhist practices led to the Head Hunters:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/herbie-hancock-head-hunters-chameleon-live-981695/

 

Check out Herbie's book "Possibilities" if you haven't already. So many good anecdotes and insights. The audio book is very enjoyable if you're into that sort of thing. There's a snippet here:

https://www.audible.com/pd/Herbie-Hancock-Possibilities-Audiobook/B00OGPRH88

[Reezekeys]

From that book:

 

I didn't want to feel so untethered anymore. When I started the sextet, I was eager to become untethered musically, and when we first did, it was thrilling. But Mwandishi's music became so spacey, and so far out, that after a while it got exhausting. Now I wanted to make music that was more rhythmic, music that would connect me back to the earth. I wasn't sure exactly what that music would sound like, but it was time to explore.

[jerrythek]

A lot of good replies here. Herbie was genuine in his search for a new musical format after the Mwandishi band. What I find interesting is how people will talk about the birth and development of "fusion" etc. and lump in The Head Hunters, who were so far away from the other bands (I recently saw an article stating how the Mahavishnu Orchestra influenced Herbie's move away from Mwandishi. Come on, now. That's ludicrous to me). It was their earthy and sometimes abstract jazz-informed funk that was the key, along with no overplaying/gymnastic soloing.

 

For me those first four albums (Head Hunters, Thrust, Man Child and Secrets) were perfection, before the more commercial elements did seem to seep in. Herbie is always excellent, but there are a number of late '70s - early '80's records that I like a lot less. He seemed to be swayed by his producer to do things... so much of the late '70s jazz-rock/whatever took some bad influences from disco and tried to make dance hits. But I digress...

 

As overplayed as Chameleon has become, listening to the above posted Germany clip shows a band taking chances, playing in the moment, playing off each other and being very creative. That's much more than some 2-chord funk jam.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, jerrythek said:

As overplayed as Chameleon has become, listening to the above posted Germany clip shows a band taking chances, playing in the moment, playing off each other and being very creative. That's much more than some 2-chord funk jam.

Facts.  A lot can be learned from listening to Herbie's rendition of the tune on that particular performance.😎

[zephonic]

I stand corrected, Herbie does play the middle section live, forgive me, Maestro! Or at least an adaptation, but certainly not watered down!

 

He's friggin' 82 years old and you can tell he's physically not as strong and flexible as he used to be, but his mastery has not abandoned him!

 

 

[JoJoB3]

Drummer, Mike Clark is still hitting btw. Eternally 21!

[cedar]

Little off-topic: Herbie recently announced some more tour dates for 2024.  Anyone know who is in his current touring band? I couldn't find the info on his website.