Is timing the most underrated and under appreciated music skill?

[RABid]

When praising a musician for their skills you never hear anyone mention timing. Who ever said "that guitarist has impeccable timing?" It is sometimes talked about in a group setting. "The drummer and bass player have the grove locked down" or "that horn section is tight." But outside of drummers it is hardly mentioned when talking about musical skills. But, play with a musician with bad timing and you are quickly looking elsewhere. 

 

I was blessed with great timing from the beginning. When I joined my first truly professional band and moved from drums to keys, it was timing that kept me going until I learned some chops. I didn't have soloing skills but I could lock in with the drummer and bassist. When the guitarist quit without notice and the band talked me into covering lead guitar, it was timing, and a couple of trick licks, that kept us going and prompted the club owner to to say "he is doing fine". I expected to play one night and then be replaced by another band but the club owner was happy and keep us for the two week booking. Timing, and knowing what songs to remove from the sets. 

 

So why don't musicians discuss timing more? 

[KuruPrionz]

I agree with you 100%, timing is my biggest challenge when recording my songs. 

Using one tempo flatlines the song. Smoothly shifting tempos is far more difficult but essential for the music to breathe. 

Listening to poorly recorded takes of some of these songs by bands I was in, playing live or at practice, two things quickly become obvious. First, it is much easier for a group of people playing in the same room at the same time to keep tempo and successfully speed up and slow down. Second, that may not be flawless either. 

 

At this point, as an Army of One all I can do is keep trying until I succeed. 

 

In live band situations on guitar or bass, I can lock a groove almost always. But I am watching the movement of other musicians and moving with them. In that respect it is like dance. 

[Shamanzarek]

I never paid much attention to timing until the mid-70s when I got into a band with twin brothers from Puerto Rico. One brother played drums and the other bass. They were experts at Latin rhythms and really got down on me about timing. Ever since then I have received many compliments about my timing especially on gigs where I played bass guitar.

[Anderton]

I would say that vocal phrasing is related to timing as well. I admit to using warp markers sometimes to shift phrases around for more impact. One thing I have learned is that "perfect" vocal phrasing where words align to the beat is nowhere near as effective as it is with drums/bass/rhythm guitar etc. The vocals play around the beat, not on it, but that in itself is timing.

[harmonizer]

Timing (rhythm) is something that is often overlooked by those who play wind instruments (I am primarily a sax player).

 

We got a new band director at the start of my sophomore year of high school. He showed us how commitment (by all the players) to timing and rhythm could make us much better. Our jazz band had lost a ton of talent to graduation at the end of my freshman year, but by the end of our new band director's first year with us, we were a better band even though we had a lot less talent. I've never forgotten this lesson.

 

If you are a wind instrument player who is not thinking about rhythms when you're not playing a note, then you are not making yourself prepared, and you are not committed.

 

Some vocalists have a very good sense of rhythm and find it easier to sing lines having lots of syncopation, while others don't. And some singers sing rhythms that bend the time so much (singing notes behind or ahead of the beat), that transcribing them is difficult. Van Morrison has many examples of this. And Amy Winehouse's singing just played with rhythms like a toy.

[o0Ampy0o]

7 hours ago, Anderton said:

I would say that vocal phrasing is related to timing as well. I admit to using warp markers sometimes to shift phrases around for more impact. One thing I have learned is that "perfect" vocal phrasing where words align to the beat is nowhere near as effective as it is with drums/bass/rhythm guitar etc. The vocals play around the beat, not on it, but that in itself is timing.

 

I think this applies to lead solo on an instrument as well, yes? Seems like the great Musicans of Musico think of vocals when they play lead on an instrument. Seems at least when approached melodically playing from the heart as opposed to a technically precise approach.

[bill5]

14 hours ago, RABid said:

When praising a musician for their skills you never hear anyone mention timing. Who ever said "that guitarist has impeccable timing?" It is sometimes talked about in a group setting. "The drummer and bass player have the grove locked down" or "that horn section is tight." But outside of drummers it is hardly mentioned when talking about musical skills. But, play with a musician with bad timing and you are quickly looking elsewhere. 

 

I was blessed with great timing from the beginning. When I joined my first truly professional band and moved from drums to keys, it was timing that kept me going until I learned some chops. I didn't have soloing skills but I could lock in with the drummer and bassist. When the guitarist quit without notice and the band talked me into covering lead guitar, it was timing, and a couple of trick licks, that kept us going and prompted the club owner to to say "he is doing fine". I expected to play one night and then be replaced by another band but the club owner was happy and keep us for the two week booking. Timing, and knowing what songs to remove from the sets. 

 

So why don't musicians discuss timing more? 

A most excellent point. I would guess the answer to your question is that timing is sort of folded into being considered a good player overall, similar to how phrasing is. 

 

And totally outside the realm of music (if I'm permitted briefly), but this is IMO also an underrated and often bungled thing in theater/TV/movies as well. If I had a nickel for every time I thought a line in a movie was rushed when even the briefest of pauses would have served it so much better...  

[Anderton]

19 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

I think this applies to lead solo on an instrument as well, yes? Seems like the great Musicans of Musico think of vocals when they play lead on an instrument. Seems at least when approached melodically playing from the heart as opposed to a technically precise approach.

 

Very much so. If you compare most solos to a grid, there's not a lot of correlation. It's not a random process, a player will rush a bit to hit a climax, then pull back, etc.

 

Come to think of it...maybe the problem people have with quantized electronic music is if the solos are also quantized. I've certainly done enough music where the rhythm section is solid compared to the grid, but the solos/vocals aren't. Seems like a good combination. 

[Paul Harrison]

Larry Goldings on time

 

 

 

Maceo Parker with Larry Goldings

- Maceo Parker (alto), Pee Wee Ellis (tenor), Fred Wesley (trombone), Allan Jaffe (guitar), Larry Goldings (organ), Bill Stewart (drums)

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

Yes, timing. Not underrated, just hard to teach, so not spoken about.

 

It's easier to teach how to play the notes, how to read the chart, but the subtle things like timing and intentional manipulation of pitch make the difference between mechanics and music. Plus, there is no definitive right answer. While being behind the beat might work for one singer, on the same song, being aggressively ahead of the beat might work for another, in the same situations.

 

In the rhythm section, a couple of microseconds before or after the beat or sub-beat can make all the difference in the world.

 

In the melody, without phrasing, the melody lacks an important part of expression. Just as one does when speaking, the timing of the note/word starts, each syllable, and ends are so important.

 

Quantize a song, and you suck the life out of it.

 

Notes ♫

 

[timwat]

Yes. Absolutely yes.

[pinkfloydcramer]

Having good time is very much appreciated by competent musicians, IMO. 
 

Notes, chords and harmony have always  been the easy part for me (or to anyone with a good ear, IMO) but having good time is something I have had to work at. Going through long stretches of playing piano in restaurants with no rhythm section (early in my “career”/music whoredom) had left me with “solo piano player’s disease”- bad time, in particular rushing or speeding up. I found that the more I practiced with a click during the day, the better I played and the more I enjoyed the gig at night. Sometimes I would even have a click in my earbuds on the gig itself. 
 

It made me feel better to read a Chuck Leavell comment, that early in his career his timing wasn’t very good and he tended to rush. So he started working with a metronome and practicing with a click for a few days before going on tour. 
 

it drives me crazy to play gigs with someone who who drops and adds beats, rushes every solo. He just throws up his hands and says “my timing sucks” and expects others to cover for him, instead of proactively working on his weakness. Needless to say, he owns the PA.

[o0Ampy0o]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:31 PM, bill5 said:

And totally outside the realm of music (if I'm permitted briefly), but this is IMO also an underrated and often bungled thing in theater/TV/movies as well. If I had a nickel for every time I thought a line in a movie was rushed when even the briefest of pauses would have served it so much better...  

Also lines delayed or shots lingering too long on people showing a reaction, like smiling and shaking their head at a comment. Some of it in film is editing. Some of it is directing. If you don’t have the footage it can be the director’s fault. However, budget and time constraints sometimes factor into rushed takes, limited takes and inadequate, if any, rehearsals.
 

There is also misplaced timing. Sitcom dialogue has a different rhythm than cinematic comedy or drama. Michael J Fox did a movie when he was only a couple seasons into the TV series that made him famous. His costar was a girl from a different sitcom. At this point we know Michael can act. The girl could only do that sitcom rhythm delivering her lines. Everything in the film had a different rhythm. She was a disaster. 
 

I was watching an episode of a series this week and there was a scene in which two characters covered so much ground working out their conflict, explaining things for the audience and going from arguing to patching up the relationship between colleagues in their interaction they sacrificed many things getting through it. Ideally it needed breathing room and a plausible rhythm. But this was the final season with half the number of episodes and they had to tie everything up leading to the series finale. They were not selling the series at this stage. They had a guaranteed large following. The objective was different. They still had budget and time constraints. On top of everything the cast was being paid more than ever.

[Al Quinn]

Music is often broken down into melody, harmony, and rhythm. I think it’s fair to say timing falls under the rhythm aspect of music. While melody and harmony are pretty easy to teach, learn, and discuss; rhythm and timing are much more difficult.
 

For me, it’s accurate rhythm and concept of time that separates the best from the rest. Music notation is a good tool but inadequate for properly describing the nuances of rhythm and timing. Recordings of musical performance are best for accurately capturing timing and, therefore, the best medium for learning timing (whether consciously through practice or subconsciously through listening). I’m not sure I agree that timing is underrated — at least not by people I usually play with. We talk about time a lot, are drawn to other players who have good time, and move away from players who don’t have good time.
 

On a related note, I see / hear many people obsessed with the material they play while not being obsessed with how they play or present their material. So, they play great material but it lacks life and doesn’t move people. IMHO, this is often because some aspect of their time is lacking. 

[ProfD]

23 hours ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

Having good time is very much appreciated by competent musicians, IMO. 

Agreed.  That's also where having a better sense of time is learned if it isn't innate.

 

Being able to play with the *best* musicians around is both humbling and educational too especially when it comes to time. 

 

Likewise, play with a  rhythm section consisting of a ultra-bad drummer and bass player who have a great sense of time and feel.  That experience will make it harder to enjoy/appreciate playing with musicians who lack it.

 

In my world, if a musician cannot dance and/or have a natural sense of rhythm, until proven otherwise, the assumption is their timing may be bad and/or feel not so great.😎

[Theo Verelst]

I knew harmonies and scales pretty well years before developing a solid neutral rhythm ability, and only after that I became attracted to jazz. Probably it takes keyboardists quite a while before they're rhythm tight, and I think that only can happen when specifically training (e.g. with drum computer) and that including recording yourself and applying honest and sufficient criticism!

 

Theo

[Notes_Norton]

There are some things you can't teach.

 

You can teach theory, you can teach how to play an instrument, you can teach the fundamentals of expression (timing, dynamics, ornaments, phrasing, and so on), that is science. But you can't teach how and when to use each one. That is the art.

 

When, how, which one(s), and how much to use all the elements of expression is where the talent comes in. There is no exact formula. You can show examples, teach the student how to analytically listen, but in the end, it's up to the player.

 

My first example of groove/timing was when I was in school band. Our bandmaster, Robert C Monroe, played recordings of different orchestras/conductors playing the same Viennese Waltz. He explained that in this form of music, which is in 3/4 time, the second beat is almost always rushed. When he played the examples, some conductors rushed the second beat a smidgeon, others, quite a bit. He explained they were all correct, but it was the artist's interpretation that made the difference.

 

As adults, Mrs. Notes and I took ballroom dance lessons. We got a weekly gig playing for ballroom dancers, and got free lessons as a perk. We took them to understand what the dancers look for. The rushing of that second beat stimulates the dancers. Each ballroom dance had its groove, and the variability of how strong the groove is.

 

Mr. Monroe also explained melodic phrasing, saying sometimes the soloist might rush the beginning of the phrase and drag the tail, or he/she might drag the beginning and the rush to end it on time.

 

He gave plenty of other tips, and I was lucky to have him as a teacher when I was very young.

 

You can teach these concepts to people, but you can't teach where, when, and how much to apply them. That's where the “art” part comes in. And the art is in the minute details.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Bill Heins]

I'd rather listen to a bad song played well than a great song played badly...I think timing is taken for granted as a measure of a certain level of musicianship. I had a friend who wanted me to do some orchestration for a song of his but it was recorded without a click and the timing was all over the place...I politely explained that if you don't care to play in time I don't care to try and match endless timing variations!   I don't record anything without a click for the first track....you don't have to sound like a robot but you need to stay in the ballpark!

 

Bill

[Notes_Norton]

23 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

I'd rather listen to a bad song played well than a great song played badly

 

Agreed.

 

23 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

I don't record anything without a click for the first track....you don't have to sound like a robot but you need to stay in the ballpark!

 

That depends. Sometimes Rubato is nice. But if not intentional, the rhythm section should be tight.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[bill5]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:35 PM, Bill Heins said:

I'd rather listen to a bad song played well than a great song played badly

I won't listen to either.   

 

 

Quote

I don't record anything without a click for the first track....you don't have to sound like a robot but you need to stay in the ballpark!

Fair enough but I HATE click tracks...something about trying to make music "too precise" I will take a pass on (classical being the exception). 

[Anderton]

There's a best-of-both-worlds scenario, but only if you start off with MIDI. While songwriting, you can lay down just the basics (simple drum part, midi piano/whatever, maybe bass) and then adjust the tempo track for whatever variations you want. Now you've created a click track that follows the timing. Then you can record audio to the "click" track, replace the MIDI parts if desired, and not need to use any time-stretching to conform to tempo changes you introduced after recording the part.

 

Also, having a click when recording at a non-varying tempo doesn't mean I have to follow it. If I want to rush or lag a little bit, I find it helpful to know the tempo against which I'm rushing or lagging. But of course, this is a YMMV situation. 

 

If I didn't start off with tempo variations and wish I'd added them, I create a new song, load the mix, and add tempo changes. But, this requires care because sometimes the stretching creates artifacts. Fortunately, I've found that moving a tempo change node even slightly can eliminate these. 

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, bill5 said:

I won't listen to either.   

 

 

Fair enough but I HATE click tracks...something about trying to make music "too precise" I will take a pass on (classical being the exception). 

Actually, classical music is not played to a click track. The musicians may practice with a metronome to improve their precision but at a concert the conductor is signaling the timing with gestures. Decades ago, we discovered that the dress rehearsals at the Fresno Philharmonic were pretty fabulous and you could enter for free as long as you were not disruptive. Almost all the seats were empty so it was easy to get 3rd row center. Often the "star" performer was present for the rehearsal, even if they lived far away. We got to enjoy some awesome shows and a paramount part of the conductor's job was to accurately provide a visual reference for the volume, tempo and parts of the orchestra playing the music, which often sped up or slowed down as part of the composition. 

 

That said, click tracks are a very different thing. I'm starting to think that somebody should create a "video conductor" who makes gestures according to the click track, then you could adjust tempo on click tracks as Craig mentions above my post. Where it gets tricky, at least at my level of ignorance, is programming click tracks to accurately perform accelerando and ritardando as needed. That can be more "elastic" than just speeding up and slowing down, it might take a measure or two - "gooey time". 

 

I wish I had the skills to program something like that, an audio-visual flexible tempo plugin. EVERYBODY needs one!!!

[bill5]

8 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Actually, classical music is not played to a click track.

Of course, I just meant it's a very precise type of music that way.

[AnotherScott]

About ten years ago, I had the opportunity to meet Eddie Jobson, and mentioned to him that one of the things I most admired about his playing was his timing. I was glad to see he seemed to really appreciate that.

[KuruPrionz]

1 minute ago, AnotherScott said:

About ten years ago, I had the opportunity to meet Eddie Jobson, and mentioned to him that one of the things I most admired about his playing was his timing. I was glad to see he seemed to really appreciate that.

Nice! I saw Eddie with UK, add John Wetton on bass/vocals and Terry Bozio on drums. Fantastic! And, a LONG time ago...

[Notes_Norton]

13 hours ago, Anderton said:

There's a best-of-both-worlds scenario, but only if you start off with MIDI.

 

I do my backing tracks entirely in MIDI. I can exaggerate the groove, speed up the B section or other parts, fix flubbed notes because I didn't practice the part quite enough before recording it, and so on. Since I'm a duo, the audience doesn't expect backing vocals, so putting them on a synth voice is a great way to add them.

 

I've done 'hired gun' session work, but for my own duo, I prefer MIDI.

 

10 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Actually, classical music is not played to a click track.

 

I played classical, and love it from the romantic period onward. I've never worked with a conductor who was a metronome. From Beethoven's third symphony onward, playing like a metronome is a sure way to suck the life out of the music.

 

Timing is very, very important, but it doesn't mean strict timing like a metronome. It means timing variations to enhance the emtional content of the music.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

 

 

[Anderton]

11 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Where it gets tricky, at least at my level of ignorance, is programming click tracks to accurately perform accelerando and ritardando as needed. That can be more "elastic" than just speeding up and slowing down, it might take a measure or two - "gooey time". 

 

I recently did a string quartet intro to a song. I found it was easier to add the tempo variations after the fact. Here's what the tempo map looks like:

 

 

Check out the audio example, you'll hear the "feel" from the tempo track. I think it's a pretty convincing demo of how tempo changes can additional emotional pull, even with a MIDI-based quartet (violin, viola, cello, contrabass).

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

3 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

I recently did a string quartet intro to a song. I found it was easier to add the tempo variations after the fact. Here's what the tempo map looks like:

 

 

Check out the audio example, you'll hear the "feel" from the tempo track. I think it's a pretty convincing demo of how tempo changes can additional emotional pull, even with a MIDI-based quartet (violin, viola, cello, contrabass).

 

 

Thanks Craig, that is really awesome. I guess I just need to get to work!!!

I fully understand why you use MIDI, the pitches do not change. There is an option for MIDI guitar on the Fishman Triple Play but I'd really love to be able to play my acoustic guitars just like real instead of using MIDI to activate a MIDI based plugin of an acoustic guitar. Those sound pretty good as far as it goes but real strings played by real hands still can deliver a level of expression that MIDI plugins simply cannot replicate (yet) and it's likely that the complexity of it could rob one of their sleep if/when it does become possible to replicate all those nuances. 

 

Maybe I just want too much? 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Maybe I just want too much? 

 

You want live musicians  !

 

But honestly, if I'd said that string quartet was recorded live, you very well might believe it. The cracks show up with longer pieces, more complex pieces, etc. There are currently movies with soundtracks done entirely with samplers, and as long as you stay within the limitations for note expression parameters and such, it's really hard to tell whether it's the real thing or not.

 

Remember the cello parts in Apocalypse Now? They were played with a wind controller. No one called them on it, because the wind controller's expressiveness was up to the task.

[KuruPrionz]

9 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

You want live musicians  !

 

But honestly, if I'd said that string quartet was recorded live, you very well might believe it. The cracks show up with longer pieces, more complex pieces, etc. There are currently movies with soundtracks done entirely with samplers, and as long as you stay within the limitations for note expression parameters and such, it's really hard to tell whether it's the real thing or not.

 

Remember the cello parts in Apocalypse Now? They were played with a wind controller. No one called them on it, because the wind controller's expressiveness was up to the task.

I do want live musicians, and maybe a conductor!!!!

 

Reality is that I live in a small condo - 33 unit complex AND I do not have a budget to hire live musicians, a recording studio including engineer, etc. 

I'm an "Army of One" and I don't see that changing. Computers are capable of amazing things and modern software based instruments are also amazing. 

 

Sometimes, you have to shift parameters to the "real world", which is why I've mentioned playing songs (or parts of songs) in multiple tempos. Chop up and assemble. You'd probably end up with places where you needed to fill in the transitions (like you did on your orchestral piece, how you composed the parts could make a huge difference, also how you manipulated them. I think it could be done. I know it would be a lot of work, especially at first since there will also be a learning curve and a long term possibility of making things somewhat more efficient and simple.

 

You can't fail if you don't try!!! You can't succeed either, to say nothing of learning something new - whether good news or discouragement.