Rumors: Yamaha Montage successor

[jazzpiano88]

7 hours ago, Theo Verelst said:

I'm pretty sure there's hardly a sound there that I covet…

Are they covetable?

[Zalman Stern]

28 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Are they covetable?

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s patches.

 

-Z-

[DeltaJockey]

I find it hard to really judge from the soundfiles. Of the sounds which interest me, the pianos seem to have quite a bit of compression, and the orchestral sounds are distinctly Yamaha, with quite a sharp transient digital quality to them. I've come to expect that though from default do everything patches on synths. Just not up to the niche specialization of bespoke libraries. Would be unfair to expect 😁

 

I've always been impressed with Yamaha guitars though. The slide guitars I play on my Montage (one?), are just superbly playable!

[DmitryKo]

Well, this doesn't look like an incremental update as I previously thought, if you consider the sneak peek of the OS parameters screen. GUI elements seem to be aligned vertically to match the six rotary knobs under the display (which I presume double as push-button switches), the workflow looks substantially different considering the rearrangement of most function buttons. The GUI on the second monochrome LCD hints at increased controller resolution (i.e. center value is 512 now, so at least 10-bit).

 

Synth demos do not sound like sampling to me, more like an enhanced version of FM-X -  some of them could be morphing between several different patches, like the Smart Morph FM-X Performances in the Montage/MODX and Scenes in the original Yamaha AN1x. So I'd guess the Montage M does have the AN-X engine after all.

 

I'll wait for the official specs, and if the Montage M7 matches at least some of my expectations, is more lightweight than the previous generation, this could be a tempting offer if the price is better aligned against Korg Kronos 73 and Roland Fantom 7.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

I wonder if they’ve implemented the midi 2.0 spec deeply throughout this new Montage. 

[UnderGroundGr]

I hope it will have polyphonic aftertouch...

[UnderGroundGr]

 

[felis]

"....I 100% believe...."  🤣

 

Good god man, the speculation is ridiculous.

[pjd]

7 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I wonder if they’ve implemented the midi 2.0 spec deeply throughout this new Montage. 

 

A good chance. Some vendor jumped the gun and spilled the new features in Cubase 13. MIDI 2.0 is included.

 

-- pj

 

[Keyboardplayer]

This is the demo from the list that Yamaha posted on the Yamaha Synth forum that some people think could be the AN-X virtual analog synth engine in action. Including Scott in the video posted above by member UnderGroundGr. Personally, I think it sounds rather digital. What do you think?

 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

This is the demo from the list that Yamaha posted on the Yamaha Synth forum that some people think could be the AN-X virtual analog synth engine in action. Including Scott in the video posted above by member UnderGroundGr. Personally, I think it sounds rather digital. What do you think?

 

It’s tricky to tell the difference between a software synth and an analogue synth and a sample of either.   Especially with fx.  We used to be able to hear stepping in a filter or modulation values, but software has gotten very good at hiding that too.  We’ll just have to wait and see what they’ve built. 

[DmitryKo]

I think the Montage M synth bass demo sounds much like the PWM oscillator in the Behringer Deepmind 12D  - or just like any other analog, virtual analog, or software analog synthesizer with PWM oscillators  

 

 

As for the video above, I didn't have much hope in ROMpler folks on Internet forums  but Scott has a Novation Summit and a Roland System-8 right in front of him alongside his Yamaha Montage, not to mention his other analog and virtual analog gear like ASM HydraSynth, Roland Gaia, Korg opsix, Roland JP-800, Roland Fantom and whatnot.

 

And yet nothing rang a bell when he first heard this synth bass demo - not a slightest glimpse of "PWM", "unison", "detune", or "release" (as in ADSR)? Only "nice filter" and "nothing AWM2 cannot do already"? 🤣

Should have taken a deeper dive into his own Novation Summit, or probably went back to explore a "beginner's synth" like Roland SH201 or Behringer Deepmind 6/12.

 

 

Looking at GUI icons, they are just stock infographics of sine waves, filter curves and generstor envelopes which you'll find in many modern synths, no matter analog, virtual analog or sample-based, so I'm not sure why it woukd be a hint for the AN-X engine.

 

Also regarding "you can't morph between FM-X algorithms", it's not true anymore - that's exactly what was made possible by Smart Morph in the Montage OS 3.5 update, as linked in the post above.

 

Some PWM demos with realtime OSC/VCF/ADSR tweaking (note the 2nd of the four buttons in the OSC section):

 

Behringer Deepmind 12D - Sequence One - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nK3LLedfUM

 

 

 

20 minutes of analog madness! #behringer #deepmind #synth - YouTube

https://youtu.be/umRMm4t9x8E?t=600

 

 

 

And that's how it sounds when you filter down a sampled waveform:

 

Yamaha Reface CS | 90s Trance Sounds - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2guSXick7hU&t=80s

 

Yamaha Mox Bass Bank Demo - 113 - Short PWM Bass - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysU8F_vCMOg

 

Yamaha CS6x + CS6r Synthesizer Sound Demo Video - YouTube

https://youtu.be/eZxPNVfkNXU?t=127

 

Yamaha CS6x Demo Songs - Specifications - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFfSqDbw6rM

 

 

It's static in the sense that you can only filter out the harmonic content captured at the particular moment, eliminating higher frequencues - they are preserved when you can directly change oscillator pulse-width ratio, detune or unison amount, but you cannot tweak sampled waveforms in this way, and no amount of filter resonance or FX processing would add this harmonic content back. Maybe except some crazy amount of sample layering, knob tweaking and button pressing whivh goes beyond being practical for live playing.

 

 

More digital oscillator analog / virtual analog:

 

Novation Summit Demo 2022 I No Talking + Custom Patches - YouTube

https://youtu.be/Emfchw0pudc?t=321

 

Roland SH201 Test Los 32 presets!!! - YouTube

https://youtu.be/0wNWUb9XXh0?t=340

 

[jazzpiano88]

I think the best evidence for the virtual analog is the screen shot of the icons indicating Analog elements.

[Keyboardplayer]

I'm pretty sure the new Montage will have both the AN-X virtual analog synth engine plus MIDI 2.0 compatibility. In fact, I found some accidentally leaked info regarding Steinberg Cubase 13 that a vendor posted but has since deleted. Cubase 13 is on the cusp of being released from what I understand, and lo and behold it includes MIDI 2.0 support. This is important because the new Montage M will be released in October and Yamaha has been heavily involved in developing the MIDI 2.0 specification architecture in collaboration with the MIDI Association. Ya' gotta think that Yamaha included MIDI 2.0 support in Cubase 13 for a specific reason and the reason I think is the also soon to be released Montage M that will almost assuredly be MIDI 2.0 compatible; else why put MIDI 2.0 in Cubase 13 at this specific juncture? 💡 The Montage series and Cubase go hand in hand, and if true, this would be truly cutting edge technology in the first of its kind Workstation/Synthesizer keyboard on the market used in conjunction with a DAW, in this case, Cubase 13. Without further ado...

 

WHAT’S NEW IN CUBASE 13?

 

CHANNEL TAB
Mix on the go
The new channel tab in the Project window gives you direct access to your mix, without leaving the arrangement.
The new design means you can intuitively find what you need, letting you mix on the go in a compact, per channel view.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

MIXCONSOLE
Slick, streamlined, focused
The MixConsole has been given a fresh overhaul with a slick, streamlined design to help you focus on your mix.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

RANGE TOOL
Increase your range
The Range tool is one of the most powerful tools in Cubase and it’s now available in the Key Editor as well as the Drum Editor.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

EDITOR
A new editor experience
Edit multiple parts from within the Key Editor and Drum Editor, switch between tracks with the Visibility tab and maintain an overview with the new Track display
(PRO)

VOCAL PRODUCTION
The ultimate vocal chain
Vocal processing is an art of its own, taking a lot of expertise and experience to master the different processing steps. The VocalChain plug-in provides dedicated modules for each step, helping to turn your recordings into professional-sounding vocal tracks.
(PRO-ARTIST)

CHORD PADS
Progress your progressions
The new chord pads make it easy to find creative chord progressions. New presets give you excellent starting points and enhanced functions make it even simpler to create unique music.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

ORCHESTRAL LIBRARΥ
Sketch out your scores
Iconica Sketch allows everyone from beginners to professional composers to create full orchestral scores of the highest quality with 140 articulations for 34 instruments in a compact 5GB library.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

SAMPLER TRACK
Τweak it
The Sampler Track is even more creative, thanks to stunning new Spectral Warp modes for extreme manipulation and powerful envelope creation.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

VOCODER
Τhe return of a legend
Create classic robotic vocals or add analog flavor to your instruments with the legendary Steinberg Vocoder. Use up to 24 filter bands, sidechain input, and enjoy in-depth control over the sound.
(PRO-ARTIST)
COMPRESSION
Compression with character
Black Valve is a classic tube compressor with lots of warmth and character. Its sonic detail makes this tribute to one of the most iconic studio processors really stand out
(PRO)

EQUALIZER
Add class with frequency
Two new equalizers, the EQ-P1A and the EQ-M5, add a classy sound to your productions.
(PRO-ARTIST)

COMPRESSION
Be a vocal specialist
The new VoxComp is a compressor specifically designed for vocals, gently taming your recordings without compromising clarity, transients, or expression.
(PRO)

SAMPLE PACKS
Creative starting points
Be inspired by five exclusive new sample packs by Grammy-winning producer Beat Butcha, creative mastermind Sharooz, and acclaimed sample boutiques 91Vocals and Touch Loops.
(PRO-ARTIST-ELEMENTS)

STEP & MIDI INPUT - The Step and MIDI Input features are now more even powerful. Modify note lengths on the fly and add voices on top with the new polyphonic note input feature.
KEY EDITOR - MIDI CCs can now be recorded in simplified ramps to make it quicker and easier for editing the controller events afterward
TRACK VERSIONS FOR VIDEO - Working with new video edits is now more convenient with new Track Versions for the VideoTrack.
START MODES - Do you want to start from the cycle marker, the last position or your selection? Configure where playback starts to precisely match your workflow.
TRANSPORT BAR - Easily adjust the project tempo to the beat with the new Tap Tempo feature in the Transport Bar.
CHANNEL CONFIGURATION - Change the channel type from mono to stereo or vice versa with just one click
VERTICAL ZOOM - Zoom in and out vertically with the mouse wheel and decide whether you want to zoom to transport or selection.
KEY COMMANDS - The new Key Command dialog makes managing your short cuts quick and easy. Find commands easier with the dynamic filter and try new macros on the fly.The new Key Command dialog makes managing your short cuts quick and easy. Find commands easier with the dynamic filter and try new macros on the fly.
IMPORT TRACKS FROM PROJECTS - There are several new options that give you more flexibility and control when importing tracks, events, and time ranges.
MIDI PLUG-INS - MIDI plug-ins have had a design overhaul with a fresh new look
MIDI 2.0 - With support for high resolution velocity, CC, aftertouch, pitch bend, and poly pressure data, Cubase 13 is ready for the widespread adoption of MIDI 2.0.
ROUTING - You can now set instrument tracks/racks/sampler return channels as inputs for audio tracks, as well as FX and group channels.
DEMO PROJECTS - Explore three new excellent showcase demo projects, including productions by Austin Hull and Azodi.
WINDOW MANAGEMENT - Cubase now features Windows-compliant multi-window handling.
VIDEO ENGINE - The Windows video engine has been improved, including GPU hardware decoding for H264 and better overall performance

FEATURE Cubase Pro 13 Cubase Artist 13 Cubase Artist 13
Number of audio/MIDI/Instrument tracks Unlimited Unlimited 48/64/24
Physical inputs and outputs 256 32 24
Group channels 256 32 16
FX inserts/send/return channels 16 / 8 / 64 16/ 8 / 64 8 / 8 / 8
Number of included Audio effect plug-ins 87 65 45
Included VST instruments Groove Agent SE, HALion Sonic, Sampler Track, Iconica Sketch, Flux, Retrologue, Padshop, Verve, Trip Groove Agent SE, HALion Sonic, Sampler Track, Iconica Sketch, Flux, Retrologue, Padshop, Verve, Trip Groove Agent SE, HALion Sonic, Sampler Track, Iconica Sketch, Flux
Number of included instrument sounds > 3,000 >2,600 >1,000
Sample and Loop Packs 18 (> 20Gb) 18 (> 20Gb) 18 (> 20Gb)
External instruments / effects Yes (Yamaha Motif only) (Yamaha Motif only)
Scoring and notation Full Basic Basic
Chord track & Chord Pads Yes Yes Yes
Advanced comping Yes Yes -
Phase-coherent multi-track AudioWarp Yes Yes -
VariAudio pitch correction Yes Yes -
TrackVersions Yes Yes -
Advanced Audio Export Yes - -
Audio Alignment Yes - -
Control Room monitoring environment Yes - -
Dolby Atmos for music Yes - -

[DmitryKo]

Still can't see any hints to "Analog" in the GUI. A 3D wavefront view, pictured in the top left corner, is not the most obvious choice to represent analog synthesis, since it's mostly associated with digital sample-based and wavetable synthesis.

 

Analog oscillators most often use symbols that depict sine, square, and saw (triangle) waves, and sometimes PWM (pulse-width modulation, a variable-width square wave) - typically represented two by sqare pulses drawn with a solid line and a dotted/dashed line, as used on Roland SH201, Behringer Deepmind, etc.

 

Depictions of a filter cutoff curve, amplifier symbol, two-pole EQ curve, ADSR envelope, and LFO sine wave are hardly exclusive to analog synthesis either.

 

 

Perspective-corrected GUI screenshot from the post above (a Part Common view):

 

 

Text labels (left to right, top to bottom):

 

 	Navigation 	Part 1	 	Common	 	Elements 1-4 

Element 1 							FX

Osc 		Filter	 	Amplitude 	Elem EQ 	3-Band EQ 	2-Band EQ 	Var

Pitch EG 	Filter EG 	Amp EG	 	Elem LFO 	(InsA)	 	InsB		Rev

					Part LFO						MFX

Part Settings? 	Pitch 		Zone 		Arp 		Motion Seq 	Controller	MEQ

 

 

[JS-Sound]

Before someone will shout HURRAY! I would wait for the day until everything is finally clear about the new Yamaha synthesizer. I’ve known Yamaha for a long time, I don’t expect miracles from Yamaha, especially after they left Montage without the 4.0 Firmware Update. I have AN1X (modified), I love this synthesizer and its sound. Based on the first sound in the teaser, I have already formed my opinion, it sounds like plastic and by its nature does not indicate anything about synthesis, and everything that Yamaha posted on the server sounds like AWM2.  It may also happen that by adding one thing, they take away another! To keep the price no higher than what it was for Montage 2016.

 

But after 30 years of lack of innovation and radical lag behind competitors, I think this trend will not be reduced in the new model.  In addition, they will again supply the Montage with the worst and cheapest chips for the audio output.  And the absurdity with Yamaha is familiar to me even if I compare MODX and Montage. In MODX there is a 1-bit delta sigma DAC AK4396vf, and in Montage, which is more expensive, it is AK4393 (we are talking about models before 2020, this year the AKM plant burned down, after that the DAC in the new ones became even worse!).  In my Montage, I also modified the output to the High End level. And AKM still doesn’t make 2-channel chips, so Yamaha will again choose cheap DACs and op-amps, but added a display. I don't need a Christmas tree with garland. I value sound and Yamaha can't understand that.

 

I will definitely check out the new Montage M8x personally. But today I am sure that new Montage M8x will leave me cold. If the new synthesizer does not have a full-fledged FM, as it was in the FS1R, and they add a “false imitation of AN1X”, then this will be a shame for Yamaha. I would like to believe in the best, but due to the previous history, there is virtually no chance of this!

[konaboy]

very interesting comment above, although the tech details were above my pay grade!

 

we should expect new montage to cost more than the 2016 model.  everything is more expensive now, synths too, especially synths actually.

 

i find it slightly amusing all this hype, buzz and excitement surrounding possible inclusion of AN1x.  I had the PLG-AN board which I used in several Yamaha keyboards and synths back in the day.  It was ok and sounded good but nothing remarkable, and this was 30 years ago! It was based on a prophet 5 architecture iirc, and sounded about as good as the NI Pro-52 or the NL2 which were hot at the time.

 

But not in this day and age.

 

Maybe AN1X will have some tricks, otherwise it's not that exciting really, compared to what software synths are doing.

 

The current Montage does great analog tones using AWM2 engine.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, konaboy said:

very interesting comment above, although the tech details were above my pay grade!

 

we should expect new montage to cost more than the 2016 model.  everything is more expensive now, synths too, especially synths actually.

 

i find it slightly amusing all this hype, buzz and excitement surrounding possible inclusion of AN1x.  I had the PLG-AN board which I used in several Yamaha keyboards and synths back in the day.  It was ok and sounded good but nothing remarkable, and this was 30 years ago! It was based on a prophet 5 architecture iirc, and sounded about as good as the NI Pro-52 or the NL2 which were hot at the time.

 

But not in this day and age.

 

Maybe AN1X will have some tricks, otherwise it's not that exciting really, compared to what software synths are doing.

 

The current Montage does great analog tones using AWM2 engine.

My assumption is that a modern ANX engine only shares the name in common with any previous efforts on VA synthesis.  

What has Yamaha done more currently on this front...  well, there's the reface CS and an iOS synth they called AN included with an app called Yamaha Synthbook.  Given how good many current software VAs are, this is definitely an area one would hope some homework was done starting with modern code on how to model analogue circuits.  

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

My assumption is that a modern ANX engine only shares the name in common with any previous efforts on VA synthesis.  

What has Yamaha done more currently on this front...  well, there's the reface CS and an iOS synth they called AN included with an app called Yamaha Synthbook.  Given how good many current software VAs are, this is definitely an area one would hope some homework was done starting with modern code on how to model analogue circuits.  

 

Reface CS2 confirmed!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

But more seriously, it's hard to imagine that Yamaha would keep the successor to its popular AN tech locked away behind a mega workstation for mega bucks. I imagine at some point they're gonna trickle down the tech to a more dedicated instrument; with the MODX+ having come out last year, it'd be weird to release a MODX++, so I'd rule that line out.

[ProfD]

There is word that describes expecting different results while doing the same thing.😁

 

Yamaha has been repackaging the same sh8t with incremental changes for several decades now. 

 

It's been forever since Yamaha has released a KB that is remotely game-changing.

 

There is no reason to be underwhelmed by the new Montage. 

 

For the most part, it will be same ole Montage with a new shade of lipstick and eyeliner. 🤣😎

[ElmerJFudd]

29 minutes ago, ProfD said:

There is word that describes expecting different results while doing the same thing.😁

 

Yamaha has been repackaging the same sh8t with incremental changes for several decades now. 

 

It's been forever since Yamaha has released a KB that is remotely game-changing.

 

There is no reason to be underwhelmed by the new Montage. 

 

For the most part, it will be same ole Montage with a new shade of lipstick and eyeliner. 🤣😎

Isn’t this also the complaint about Roland and Korg as well?  Which of them isn’t repackaging  their tech?  
 

Mainly with the sampled stuff they provide new libraries, new patches.  With synth engines it’s FM or ACB or Zenology or VA or V-Piano , AWM2, Supernatural. SGX, CX3, MS20.  What is new and ground breaking?  Does how it sounds and plays have greater importance than how they are doing it? 

[ProfD]

12 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Isn’t this also the complaint about Roland and Korg as well?  Which of them isn’t repackaging  their tech?  
 

Mainly with the samples stuff they provide new libraries, new patches.  With synth engines it’s FM or ACB or Zenology or VA or V-Piano , AWM2, Supernatural. What is new and ground breaking.  Does how it sounds and plays have greater importance than how they are doing it? 

Yes.  Roland and Korg are equally guilty.😁

 

Regardless of the synth engine, technology or samples, the *new* libraries/patches are basically variations on the same ole thing too.  

Nevermind this old guy.  I can clearly see the emperor's clothes haven't changed much since 1999.🤣

 

The most important thing is that the new KB seems and sounds better to the end user.  Carry on...😎

[DmitryKo]

Of course AN-X would only share the name with the AN1x - just like FM-X only shares the name with the DX7... oh wait, it doesn't?!! 😁 Well, at least it shares the same 6-operator FM synthesis and the same algorithms, providing full backward compatibility, and adds 8-operator FM algorithms from the FS1R, as well as digital filters and effects processors.

 

But yes, other than that, there is not a single original VLSI chip from 1983, and not even the original 12-bit DAC - so people thought it suitable to call FM-X "too crisp", "bright", "plastic" etc., and the original DX7/DX7IID "warm", "phat", "lush", or whatever positive quality or musical slang term they associated with this piece of retro gear. It's very funny how these characteristics are applied to a digital synth that was considered "harsh", "bright", and "cold" by contemporaries, so I just shrug  🤷‍♂️ 

 

 

My bet, just like the FM-X engine, the AN-X engine would be based on Yamaha's proprietary AWM tone generator chip for DSP tasks like filters/envelopes/LFO and digital effects, while the actual oscillators would be generated in software, either by the dedicated processor in the AWM chip, or maybe the main ARM processor. So the AN-X engine will have significantly more polyphony, timbrality, filter types and effects processing comparing to the AN1x, while oscillator types, sync/detune/unison parameters, modulation and control sources etc. would be carried over and expanded where necessary.

 

And just like happened with the FM-X engine, people will complain the AN-X engine sounds different in comparison to the original AN1x.

[CyberGene]

With good enough front-end AWM2 can behave like a VA. Any single-cycle wave that is looped and goes through a filter and amp and can be modulated through envelopes and LFO is already a VA to a degree. PWM is trickier but my point being they don’t have to create some new hardware design. Just software UI to control AWM2. 

[ElmerJFudd]

43 minutes ago, DmitryKo said:

Of course AN-X would only share the name with the AN1x - just like FM-X only shares the name with the DX7... oh wait, it doesn't?!! 😁 Well, at least it shares the same 6-operator FM synthesis and the same algorithms, providing full backward compatibility, and adds 8-operator FM algorithms from the FS1R, as well as digital filters and effects processors.

 

But yes, other than that, there is not a single original VLSI chip from 1983, and not even the original 12-bit DAC - so people thought it suitable to call FM-X "too crisp", "bright", "plastic, and the original DX7/DX7IID "warm", "phat", "lush", or whatever positive quality or musical slang term they associated with this piece of retro gear. It's very funny how these characteristics are applied to a digital synth that was considered "harsh", "bright", and "cold" by contemporaries, so I just shrug  🤷‍♂️ 

 

 

My bet, just like the FM-X engine, the AN-X engine would be based on Yamaha's proprietary AWM tone generator chip for DSP tasks like filters/envelopes/LFO and digital effects, while the actual oscillators would be generated in software, either by the dedicated processor in the AWM chip, or maybe the main ARM processor. So the AN-X engine will have significantly more polyphony, timbrality, filter types and effects processing comparing to the AN1x, while oscillator types, sync, modulation and control sources would be carried over and expanded where necessary.

 

And just like happened with the FM-X engine, people will complain the AN-X engine sounds different in comparison to the original AN1x.

I would certainly hope it would sound different, have a wide choice of oscillator types, a significantly more flexible modulation matrix, several choices of filter each more ear pleasing than the one before, etc. 

 

Well that’s what one would expect. 😀  Diva in a workstation.  The downside of workstations is the compromises for polyphony, 4+ layers, fx, etc.  Can they deliver a high sample rate and high  polyphony with the chosen hardware?  I think the Kronos synth engines ran at 48k.  Nord Lead was able to run at 96k, ya? 

[Silvio_Lord]

21 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

 

 

 

 

From what I learned working about 6 years with Montage, this screen represents exactly the AWM2 signal chain.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

With good enough front-end AWM2 can behave like a VA. Any single-cycle wave that is looped and goes through a filter and amp and can be modulated through envelopes and LFO is already a VA to a degree. PWM is trickier but my point being they don’t have to create some new hardware design. Just software UI to control AWM2. 

 

 

Behaving like VA to some degree is not the same as being VA, though. And I don't know that the people who want to see VA in a Montage merely want "a VA-style interface" as opposed to actual VA. There's a bunch of discussion about the distinction at https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1346778-montage-modx-virtual-analog.html which also references a good article about what some of what analog behaviors can and cannot be replicated with a sample-based system in the article about the Easysounds Nostalgia pack, which can be downloaded and read via https://europe.yamaha.com/en/news_events/2021/music_production_guide_2021_02.html

[hurricane hugo]

more pics here:  https://www.matrixsynth.com/2023/09/new-yamaha-synthesizer-sneak-peek.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[DeltaJockey]

So, I was just giving one of the first photos some thought. Maybe just a muse in fantasy, but with the action looking different with the textured keys, and as others had pointed out it may now include the NW - GH3, but, considering the Montage8 was designed with BHE because of it's need to be playable with a wide range of sounds, I'm wondering whether either, they've just modernised the BHE with the trendy textured keytops, or they've designed a new BHE with wooden keys, rather than inserting a graded NW or similar.

 

Textured keys are the fashion these days, regardless of what action is underneath,

[DmitryKo]

14 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

downside of workstations is the compromises for polyphony, 4+ layers, fx, etc.  Can they deliver a high sample rate and high  polyphony with the chosen hardware?  I think the Kronos synth engines ran at 48k.  Nord Lead was able to run at 96k, ya?

 

In theory, Performances that have 8 Parts with 8 active AWM2 Elements would eat the polyphony pretty quickly, however AMW2 is typically programmed with separate Elements for velocity layers (where other sample-based synth engines would just use one multisample, or Key Bank in Yamaha's terms, with the same filter/amp/EG settings), and FM-X always uses only one oscillator per note - so the polyphony is rarely a problem, unless you simultaneously use a dozen electric organ patches with individual AWM2 Elements for each drawbar.

 

 

FYI, AWM2 engine in Montage/MODX uses SWP70 tone generator chip with a polyphony of 128 notes. Each note is a digital oscillator - i.e. a LPC-compressed or uncompressed PCM sample. The TG chip provides standard subtractive synthesis blocks. There are up to 8 separate oscillators ("Elements") per note in each Part (i.e. program, patch, or voice), and each Element has its own pitch envelope generator (PEG), filter and filter envelope generator (FEG), amplifier (mixer) and amp EG (AEG), element LFO (low-frequency oscillator), and element EQ; there are also Part Common parameters like Part LFO, Part EQ, two Insert FX blocks A/B, and FX sends to three global effects processing blocks (Chorus/Var, Reverb, MFX). 

 

FM-X engine uses the same SWP70 tone generator chip, but each Part only has one oscillator or "Operator" - an algorithm block of the 8-operator FM-X synthesis engine. The rest of the subtractive synthesis blocks, like PEG, Filter, Amp, LFO, and FX, are essentially the same as in AWM2.

 

Up to 8 Parts make up a Performance, with their own Element/Operator and Common settings intact; 8 more Parts can be controlled by MIDI using Zones.

 

 

Therefore each tone generator has 128 "oscillator" blocks with pitch/filter/amp/LFO/EQ for Elements/Operators, 16 "common" blocks to provide LFO, EQ, and dual insert FX for Parts, and 3 global FX blocks. 

 

Increasing polyphony will require a proportional increase in the number of Element processing blocks and therefore the number of gates and die size, and going to higher sampling rates will require a proportional increase in processing power, i.e. operating frequency. These improvements would primarily depend on the manufacturing process node of the tone generator chip - if Yamaha continues to use ancient 0.6 micron process, this is unlikely to happen because this node is unable go much over 200 MHz, and 2x-3x die size increases would be cost prohibitive. 

 

That's is why introduction of better synthesis and processing features in the new Montage would depend on whether Yamaha switched to a fab with a better manufacturing process. The best way to achieve much better specs is to integrate existing tone generator, effect processing and input/output chips into a new general purpose tone generator chip - this will help eliminate doubling of functional blocks and I/O components, but they need to use a finer process node to reduce the die size and keep the costs down. 

 

 

Regarding the required memory bandwidth, AWM2 sample rate and resolution is 48 kHz 16 bit, so the transfer rate is 48 kHz * 2 B = 96 KB/s per each "note", or 96 * 128 = 12 MB/s - that's well below the bandwidth of current DDR SDRAM and Open NAND Flash Interface (ONFi) memory, though NAND flash is quite bad at random access. Even if they went with 24 bit 96 kHz samples and polyphony of 1024 notes, the transfer rate would only be 96 kHz * 3 B * 1024 = 295 MB/s, which equals ancient 66 MHz EDO DRAM from 1995, or two orders of magnitude slower than the current mainstream DDR4-3200 with 25.6 GB/s.

 

That said, the need for 24/96 uncompressed and non-looped samples is far less obvious today. The tone generator chip supports LPC (linear predictive coding) compression, the same used in lossless audio codecs like FLAC, and samples are passed through a multi-tap (typically 10-, 16-, or 20-tap) resampling and antialiasing filter to pitch-shift them to the required note frequency.

 

So tone generator makes a great job of reducing quantization erros and restoring the sample to its original uncompressed quality, and proprietary offline editing tools help alalyze the samples to make looping almost seamless.

 

 

 

On 9/20/2023 at 4:43 AM, DmitryKo said:

 

Perspective-corrected GUI screenshot from the post above (a Part Common view):

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Silvio_Lord said:

this screen represents exactly the AWM2 signal chain.

 

I thought it was obvious because that wavefront in the Oscillator block doesn't look like AN-X (which I suppose would replace and enhance on the features of FM-X) - but yes, this screen comes handy to explain the structure of AWM2 Elements!

 

This GUI is also a clear improvement over the Montage with its grid of tabs and text boxes, which I can never decode for the life of me....