Want to play 1984, the prelude to Jump, on one of my keyboards

[rockit31]

Ok, before I start,  I am a player and live off of presets.   I have never dived into synthesis and would like to begin to learn this aspect of keyboards.   

 

 I have an immediate need though,  a desire to be able to pull off the opening song on Van Halen's  1984 album.    The song is also called 1984.     

 

There is an interesting story behind this.   I play keys and sing in a six piece rock cover band and we are just over a year into it,  and have decided to finally cover our first Van Halen song.

We decided on Dance the Night Away.    I quickly learned from our lead guitar that all Van Halen songs require the guitars to detune.   This takes time as they don't like those pedals that do it with a click,  says it makes the tone sound crappy.   I have been told by guitars and bass they need two minutes to do this detuning.    No,  bringing a backup guitar is also not an option at this point.   So we have a moment in the gig where there will be a couple minutes of dead time which is not good juju.   So I thought it would be cool to play 1984 in the interim and "jump" into Dance the Night Away when they are ready.   LOL!    We also have since picked up the song Mr. Brightside which also requires the same detuning, so will place these 2 songs back to back to end a set.  

 

So here's the kicker.   I don't currently own a synthesizer per say.    I have 3 boards,  Roland RD2000,  Yamaha MX88, and a Roland Ax Edge keytar.

 

I don't know why Yamaha put the MX in a category of synthesizer,   and have just used it as my second board to make gig life a little easier when songs call for multiple patches.

 

What are my best options to bring an authentic sounding 1984 with my current gear?

 

Is it even possible?      

 

On a side note question,  if you needed to buy a synthesizer today, and money was no object,  which would you choose between a Nord Stage 4 and an Oberheinm OB-X8?

 

 

[ABECK]

31 minutes ago, rockit31 said:

I quickly learned from our lead guitar that all Van Halen songs require the guitars to detune.   This takes time as they don't like those pedals that do it with a click,  says it makes the tone sound crappy.   I have been told by guitars and bass they need two minutes to do this detuning.   

 

I don't know why Yamaha put the MX in a category of synthesizer,   and have just used it as my second board to make gig life a little easier when songs call for multiple patches.

 

What are my best options to bring an authentic sounding 1984 with my current gear?

 

 

 

Well, certainly not ALL VH tunes are down a half step and none of the keys tunes are.  Why don't they just play those tunes a half step up and save the headache?

 

I would think between the MX and the RD, you could come up with a reasonable set of patches.  Synth strings and some kind of filter sweep in the bass.

 

34 minutes ago, rockit31 said:

On a side note question,  if you needed to buy a synthesizer today, and money was no object,  which would you choose between a Nord Stage 4 and an Oberheinm OB-X8?

 

 

For gigging, the Stage 4 all day long.  For studio and just plain fun, the OB-X8 for sure.

[vonnor]

According to the MX88 "Synthesizer Parameter Manual" (available from Yamaha website) it has all the tools you need to do the song. I play this (tuned to "C") before Jump at times depending on the show - you'll need to program a fat filter sweep sound and a slow fade-in/fade-out string pad sound. Split the keyboard in the middle and transpose the octave of each part to fit the range of the part.

 

You did say you "would like to begin to learn this aspect of keyboards" now is a great time to find out how awesome the MX really is.

If you're vague regarding analog synth concepts and sound programming, there are dozens of Youtube tutorials out there. Having even a rudimentary understanding of how to construct analog synth patches will take you a long ways.

 

And as @ABECK mentioned, the RD2000 may have sound creation/edit capabilities as well - would probably be great for the slow-fade strings.

 

~ vonnor

[rockit31]

12 minutes ago, vonnor said:

According to the MX88 "Synthesizer Parameter Manual" (available from Yamaha website) it has all the tools you need to do the song. I play this (tuned to "C") before Jump at times depending on the show - you'll need to program a fat filter sweep sound and a slow fade-in/fade-out string pad sound. Split the keyboard in the middle and transpose the octave of each part to fit the range of the part.

 

You did say you "would like to begin to learn this aspect of keyboards" now is a great time to find out how awesome the MX really is.

 

~ vonnor

I already have 3 different manuals for this board,   owners manual, data list, and reference manual.  Just downloaded synthesizer parameter manual  and have perused this and the reference manual a bit,  but am afraid this is all just over my head.   Yamaha was never user friendly in their documentation.  It's like you need to be a sound engineer to understand what these manuals are laying down.     

You state you have been successfully on your MX?       I see there is a split with left hand playing what patch on the MX????     Yes, the right hand sounds stringy.  What patch did you  program for that part?     And why is it tuned to C?     I'm not even sure what key the original is in.   

[rockit31]

17 minutes ago, ABECK said:

Well, certainly not ALL VH tunes are down a half step and none of the keys tunes are.  Why don't they just play those tunes a half step up and save the headache?

 

I would think between the MX and the RD, you could come up with a reasonable set of patches.  Synth strings and some kind of filter sweep in the bass.

 

For gigging, the Stage 4 all day long.  For studio and just plain fun, the OB-X8 for sure.

That was their desire and I told them it's hard enough singing it in original key,  please don't bump it up a half step.      I am not young anymore and my voice gets tired quickly singing  songs that stretch my vocal chords singing high stuff.

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, rockit31 said:

Ok, before I start,  I am a player and live off of presets.   I have never dived into synthesis and would like to begin to learn this aspect of keyboards.   

 

 I have an immediate need though,  a desire to be able to pull off the opening song on Van Halen's  1984 album.    The song is also called 1984.     

 

So here's the kicker.   I don't currently own a synthesizer per say.    I have 3 boards,  Roland RD2000,  Yamaha MX88, and a Roland Ax Edge keytar.

 

On a side note question,  if you needed to buy a synthesizer today, and money was no object,  which would you choose between a Nord Stage 4 and an Oberheinm OB-X8?

Between the Roland RD-2000 and Yamaha MX88 synthesizer, there may be preset to fit the song. 

 

Both the RD-2000 and MX88 have enough editing capability to get the sound(s) required for cover tunes.

 

From a musician perspective, it would be better to learn songs in the key it's being played. 

 

Those 2 minute detuning sessions will add up.  IMO, it's an amateurish look onstage. 

 

Also, there's no room to transition between songs unless the set-list is configured to accommodate hold and wait while we detune.

 

On that side note...regardless of whether money is an option or not, I would not waste, er, recommend a Nord Stage 4 or an Oberheim OB-X8. 😎

[vonnor]

35 minutes ago, rockit31 said:

You state you have been successfully on your MX?       I see there is a split with left hand playing what patch on the MX????     Yes, the right hand sounds stringy.  What patch did you  program for that part?     And why is it tuned to C?     I'm not even sure what key the original is in.   

No sir, I have not owned an MX-series keyboard. I'm old-school (and old) and come from the early beginnings of a MiniMoog - kinda where I learned the analog sound-design basics. I sort of learn an instrument and how to get a particular sound by necessity as needed. I've never even unwrapped any new keyboard without reading the manual(s) twice. The documentation tells me whether a custom sound is doable; then I mess with menus and buttons til I get the sound. I'm sure those patches for "1984" can be built on the MX series, and I'm sure I could build them given time. I do understand you are in a time crunch, but other than studying youtube tutorials and/or looking for Yamaha MX user forums and seeing if someone can share the sounds for that song, I'm at a loss.

 

~ vonnor

[vonnor]

The "tuned to 'C'" that I mentioned is a personal thing, and ONLY because we go right into "Jump" which is in "C." For you, you should/can just play it in the key of the original recording if you like, since you're playing it as a stand-alone song.

[CEB]

Quick solution.
 

Sample the Prelude.  Then play Jump.  
 

I’ve also  covered a lot of Van Halen on guitar in standard tuning.  

[vonnor]

Just now, CEB said:

Quick solution.
 

Sample the Prelude.  The play Jump. 

C'mon Ed... it's super fun to play live. 

Tracks. Ugh! 😜

[CEB]

I would play it personally but I have the gear.   I wouldn’t buy the gear for one song.  I think I have that preset on the Kronos 

[vonnor]

Just now, CEB said:

I think I have that preset on the Kronos 

Yep. It's one of the factory programs. I tweaked it a bit.

 

~ vonnor

[The Real MC]

1 hour ago, rockit31 said:

I quickly learned from our lead guitar that all Van Halen songs require the guitars to detune.

 

 

 

Your guitar player reads too many guitar discussion forums.  There are tons of myths like this that are perpetuated on them.  Guitar hero artists like EVH, Billy Gibbons, and many others start these myths themselves to keep copycats off their tail.  Then forum members quote them from guitar magazines and the myths become gospel.  There's a reason I stopped surfing guitar discussion forums years ago.

Plus detuning/retuning between songs is just impractical in clubs.

[rockit31]

3 hours ago, CEB said:

Quick solution.
 

Sample the Prelude.  Then play Jump.  
 

I’ve also  covered a lot of Van Halen on guitar in standard tuning.  

I don't even understand what sampling means and how to do it on these boards.  It is a sad state of affairs that I am so inept at all of these concepts,  hell,  I don't even know how MIDI works and why I would need it.  

I am a dammed good piano player who reads music though.   Playing solo classical pieces since I was  a wee lad is probably my favorite musical thing to do. 

I get by for the most part in this rock band thing,  something that I  have only 9 years experience with as a 60 year old today.

And I know my keys make this band stand out against our local "competition".  It is surprising how few bands have a keyboardist here.

I recently achieved something that for me,  was like pulling teeth.   Our lead guitar has a talk box and we are now covering practically every well know talk box song.   I figured out how to split 7 patches over my two boards to bring Living on a Prayer to life.    I know this is probably kid's play for most of you but it took alot of man hours to get this right.  Thank God for YouTube.  

I do appreciate all of you and this forum for providing sound advice to the various walls I run into.

You should know though,  I am not just a guy sitting behind a keyboard in gigs.   First of all I stand, and am the lead singer.   I have three positions on the field,  behind my rig, out front with my keytar, or just out front singing.   

I also haul the PA gear and set it up and run the sound during the gig.  

I know of no other thing in my life that burns more energy than a 3 or 4 hour gig.    I literally change my shirt every break as it is soaked.

But man,  nothing really beats it!    

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

1 hour ago, rockit31 said:

 I figured out how to split 7 patches over my two boards to bring Living on a Prayer to life.    I know this is probably kid's play for most of you but it took alot of man hours to get this right.  Thank God for YouTube.  

I wish I was closer because I'd get a real kick out of seeing that in person.  We are doing Living on a Prayer also but we just picked it a couple weeks ago and have one practice only.    

 

I keep asking the guitar player when he's going to get a talk box!  😉

[zxcvbnm098]

Except for the little tinkly sounds at the very end, it's really only two sounds: the synth bass sound and the synth string sound. 

 

I would search the presets for those two sounds, and get as close as you can. Then work with the manual on how to create a split patch with both of those preset sounds. 

 

Strings are easy....although that was an Oberheim synth string sound Eddie used, really any string sound would work. Go through your string sounds and find one you like.

 

For the synth bass sound, look in the preset section "SynB's" and see if you can get close?  

 

To get a passable patch created it really shouldn't take all that long even if you're new to this. 

[CEB]

Just play an mp3 of 1984 through the 1/8” audio in of either the mx88 or the rd 2000. 
 

[Analogaddict]

If the guitar player needs an alternate tuning on a gig, he/she needs at least two guitars. Or a Helix based rig which retunes automatically. You can’t play three minute songs and then retune for two minutes.

[analogika]

5 hours ago, Analogaddict said:

If the guitar player needs an alternate tuning on a gig, he/she needs at least two guitars. Or a Helix based rig which retunes automatically. You can’t play three minute songs and then retune for two minutes.

 

Wanted to write exactly that. 

Alternate tunings require alternate guitars, in a live context — which have the added benefit of being a backup. 

[stoken6]

Lots of good advice in this thread.

On 8/16/2023 at 1:40 PM, rockit31 said:

I don't currently own a synthesizer per say.    I have 3 boards,  Roland RD2000,  Yamaha MX88, and a Roland Ax Edge keytar.

("per se"). From my quick listen, you need a bass patch with an envelope sweeping the resonant filter, and a strings patch. I'm sure the first two can do adequate strings, and the keytar must have that big resonant sweep sound - it's virtually illegal not to put this on a keytar.

 

On 8/16/2023 at 2:15 PM, ABECK said:

Why don't they just play those tunes a half step up and save the headache?

I get that this makes it too difficult to sing.

 

23 hours ago, ProfD said:

Those 2 minute detuning sessions will add up.  IMO, it's an amateurish look onstage. 

 

Also, there's no room to transition between songs unless the set-list is configured to accommodate hold and wait while we detune.

Two transitions (one to detune, one to retune) is too many. I would start one of the sets with this tune, and find a way to cover the second transition. Or cover the "detune" transition with this, and Dance The Night Away to end a set. 

 

23 hours ago, CEB said:

I would play it personally but I have the gear.   I wouldn’t buy the gear for one song.

Agreed. Plenty of great gear around for this kind of sounds, but it's not worth it. (Although imho I would recommend an unweighted alternative to the MX88, to complement the hammer action RD). 

 

23 hours ago, CEB said:

Sample the Prelude.

 

Record it to an iPhone and play it in at gigs. Like how Queen would start Bohemian Rhapsody at their gigs.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Ivan May]

The original studio versions of Jump and 1984 were cut using an OBX synthesizer that had been used by Eddie Van Halen, and I believe it was also used on Diver Down. I also know that Van Halen’s cover version of Dancing In The Streets was Eddie playing a Mini Moog synthesizer.

[ABECK]

I believe it was an OB-Xa, but I could be wrong.  He didn't start using that until the 1984 album is my understanding.  He had a Prophet 10 (the rare, single manual version) and that was the board used when he originally came up with the part.  But it kept blowing fuses, so a friend recommended the OB....and the rest is history.

[The Real MC]

"1984" requires a synth with split feature.  OB-X does not offer a split feature but the OB-Xa does.

[ABECK]

On 8/17/2023 at 5:44 PM, The Real MC said:

"1984" requires a synth with split feature.  OB-X does not offer a split feature but the OB-Xa does.

This guy has the split dialed in nicely.

 

 

[vanderSchoot]

This is my little secret gem the OP-X Oberheim vst from 2012 ?

A bit EZ Drummer 3 and Modo Bass 

 

 

[rockit31]

On 8/17/2023 at 6:51 AM, stoken6 said:

Lots of good advice in this thread.

("per se"). From my quick listen, you need a bass patch with an envelope sweeping the resonant filter, and a strings patch. I'm sure the first two can do adequate strings, and the keytar must have that big resonant sweep sound - it's virtually illegal not to put this on a keytar.

 

I get that this makes it too difficult to sing.

 

Two transitions (one to detune, one to retune) is too many. I would start one of the sets with this tune, and find a way to cover the second transition. Or cover the "detune" transition with this, and Dance The Night Away to end a set. 

 

Agreed. Plenty of great gear around for this kind of sounds, but it's not worth it. (Although imho I would recommend an unweighted alternative to the MX88, to complement the hammer action RD). 

 

 

Record it to an iPhone and play it in at gigs. Like how Queen would start Bohemian Rhapsody at their gigs.

 

Cheers, Mike.

there is only one moment of 2 minutes to detune the guitars.   I have placed Dance the Night Away and Mr. Brightside at the end of a set.  They can retune their guitars on the break.  

Can someone tell me how to record the song 1984 to my phone?   What format do I need to utilize?   And what kind of connector from my Iphone do I need to get?   I think for now,  I will attempt this,  just playing the sample .     Although I already have plan B  in the works with my drummer.     Linus and Lucy always goes over well 

[rockit31]

31 minutes ago, rockit31 said:

there is only one moment of 2 minutes to detune the guitars.   I have placed Dance the Night Away and Mr. Brightside at the end of a set.  They can retune their guitars on the break.  

Can someone tell me how to record the song 1984 to my phone?   What format do I need to utilize?   And what kind of connector from my Iphone do I need to get?   I think for now,  I will attempt this,  just playing the sample .     Although I already have plan B  in the works with my drummer.     Linus and Lucy always goes over well 

i have figured out how to download the 1984 mp3 from Itunes and placed it in my itunes library on my computer and have hooked iphone to computer and it's there now.   

I think I need some kind of other cable now to connect phone to keyboard.

will look that up on internet as well.

[EricBarker]

I played in a Party Rock Cover Band for years. For that kind of gig, the #1 priority, above ALL ELSE is to "keep the beat going". Song ends, have the next one chambered and ready to fire within 2 measures, or it absolutely destroys the flow. If I started the tune and was more than 2seconds late on entry, the guitarist would call it a lost song, and start something else instead, and he was right to do so. I'm currently helping my kid brother-in-law out with his psyche punk band, and it's really a problem. He has a crappy guitar that always goes out of tune, and the energy just takes a nosedive when he stops. Sometimes the drummer just counts in and forces him to play anyway, honestly good on him.

 

Showcase gigs, originals, jazz bands, totally different animal, take all the time you want in between songs to talk to the audience and center yourself. But not party rock, ever. You mentioned that you want your band to be a cut above the rest because they have you as a keys player, I'm sorry to say that your presence is not going to overcome the unprofessionalism of 2min detuning sessions, not in a million years. That makes the show about the BAND and not the AUDIENCE, which is death to a cover gig. The meat & potatoes 3-piece with a half-assed singer that can keep the fire burning will absolutely destroy you. That's just the reality.

 

Lean on your guitarists to find some way of either playing the song in the original key, figuring out how to make it work the half-step down without retuning, or if all-else fails, skip those tunes completely. Your set will be way better off for it. I can't stress this enough.

 

That said, your choice to play an interlude while they retune is admirable, I think you could pull it off once a night. Maybe position those detuned songs together at the beginning or ending of a set, and then use your interlude as another buffer. Practice your stage presence, and try to take all the spotlight off the guitarists.

[ABECK]

8 hours ago, EricBarker said:

If I started the tune and was more than 2seconds late on entry, the guitarist would call it a lost song, and start something else instead, and he was right to do so.

If you already started, even if late, and the guitarist steps on you and starts playing something else, I'd disagree.

[EscapeRocks]

I downloaded a pack, I think from Narf, for my MODX6.  It has a spot on, perfect 1984 patch.  I have used it at a gig or 2 before Jump, of course.