Keyboard-Clueless Sound Techs (rant)

[vonnor]

I've about had it.

 

Last Saturday we played a semi-outdoor show where a keyboard-player friend of mine attended and sat just next to the sound guy. Several times during the 1st set he caught my eye while gently shaking his head and pointing to his ear. On tunes like Jump, Here I Go Again, Feels Like The First Time, and Dreams (VH). On the break he said that he mentioned to the sound guy (who is an "old-school" drummer - more on this in a minute) that he could not hear keys, and the sound guy's response was "well he keeps pushing his volume pedal up and I have to keep turning him down." 

 

Now mind you, the only time I touch either of the FC-7's during the 1st set is to conditionally map a key range from one patch to another via Cantabile for Living On A Prayer. Sound guy sees my foot on the pedal and is flicking clueless on what is actually happening. He assumes a "volume" pedal is controlling volume... smh. I've tried to explain my rig MIDI setup to him but his eyes just glaze over.

 

Anyway, he tells me on the break that the "patch" I'm using for the low end on Jump is overpowering the subs and breaking up, and since I'm not sending him a separate line for each keyboard he can't control the low end "patch" volume. I just stared at him with my jaw on the floor! Tried telling him it's just one sound - that fat oberheim-esque synth we all know and love, but he insists it's a separate sound on my left hand (the droning "C" under the G,C,F,F,G,G,C etc). So now because the sum-biatch can't figure out how to roll off the low end on the keyboard channel input, he just turns the gain down and you can't hear any synth. Same thing happens on Livin' On a Prayer (those heavy piano hits in the intro on C,D,E) so he kills the Keyboards for the whole frickin' song!

 

Thank god for my buddy who knows what the problem is or I wouldn't even know there's a mix issue at FOH.

 

Now this guy is a friend of our drummer (go figure) who is in charge of hiring sound for our shows, and he always spends like 40 min fine-tuning the drum sound, and about 20 sec on Keys. He is always insisting that I plug my lights (yeah I'm the light tech for shows that need them) into a separate circuit to prevent hum. Now keep in mind they're only two banks of 4 LED fixtures that draw like 1.5A total on a good day, but this MF'er is old as God and still living in the 70's - when 2 par64's could blow a fuse.

 

So on the 2nd break, I finally confront the guy and (try to) explain why he needs to let me know of the patch balance issues per song, and suggest that he roll off the low end more at the channel input. He goes, "one sec," pulls up the input EQ on the Keys and wonder of wonders... it's flat as a pancake.

My buddy left before the last set so I can't say if FOH mix improved, but at the end of the night the sound guy comes up and proudly declares that he "added a low-pass filter" to my channel and it helped.

 

...low pass filter...

 

I fuking give up.

 

I'ma put the ear-bugs away and go back to on-stage amplification - anybody know a great powered speaker for keys that is real loud?

 

~ vonnor

[MathOfInsects]

I almost always either add or ask for a roll-off above whatever their crossover is for hitting the subs. If your board doesn't have a hi-pass, it might be worth adding one into the signal chain. That way "flat as a pancake" is already hi-passed.

I have been at this long enough that at this point, if someone tells me they can hear the keys well out front, I'm pleasantly surprised. Same as if I end up in people's pictures and videos of the band.

 

But I've also been at it long enough to know that, good or not, you need to make a friend of the sound tech(s). Your guy might not have had the skills to deal with what he was hearing, but there might be something to his observation (e.g., maybe that patch did need some thinning on the bottom end to come across well). 

FWIW, it's a soundtech's nightmare to have friend-of-fill-in-the-blank player, usually the singer's girlfriend, sitting there complaining that their friend isn't loud enough in the mix. That will usually get you dropped down into the basement for good.

[vonnor]

That's fair, MOI. I do trust my buddy (another local gigging pro musician - who btw does know the sound tech in question) to be tactful. 

 

And pardon my way of thinking (as well as my snark), but I do believe the sound tech is actually getting paid to produce the best FOH mix possible. The fact that he was unaware of the input EQ and how to use it is apropos my rant.

 

~ vonnor

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

15 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

FWIW, it's a soundtech's nightmare to have friend-of-fill-in-the-blank player, usually the singer's girlfriend, sitting there complaining that their friend isn't loud enough in the mix. That will usually get you dropped down into the basement for good.

Our sound guy has temporarily assumed the role of playing drums also, since our regular drummer is pregnant and is out for the foreseeable future.  Unfortunately, seated behind the drum kit he can't hear any of the rest of the mix.  We practiced Saturday and I was certain I wasn't loud enough....  Confirmed afterward when the guitar player told me he couldn't hear me at all.  I'm going to have to be more assertive this week!   

[MathOfInsects]

6 minutes ago, vonnor said:

That's fair, MOI. I do trust my buddy (another local gigging pro musician - who btw does know the sound tech in question) to be tactful. 

 

And pardon my way of thinking (as well as my snark), but I do believe the sound tech is actually getting paid to produce the best FOH mix possible. The fact that he was unaware of the input EQ and how to use it is apropos my rant.

 

~ vonnor

For sure, but unfortunately, you have to quasi-expect that and soundman-proof your rig to every extent possible. The good ones are more rare than the friend-of-the-promoter's-wife ones. 

[vonnor]

3 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

...unfortunately, you have to quasi-expect that and soundman-proof your rig to every extent possible...

Good advice Josh. I will run thru my patches and add a EQ plugin after my DIVA and JUP-8v racks in Cantabile, and another TFX on my kronos patches. Now that I know he has problems with the low-end of the keys.

 

~ Bill C. (vonnor)

[Bobbo Fett]

Drums.....bass.....geeter.....maybe the chick singer (if she's cute) that's what goes in the FOH. All others can feel free to pound sand.....a story as old as live music.....

[Stokely]

To be fair I've heard some recent cell phone recordings from band friends where I've said "wow, the keys maybe could come down a bit..."  Slap my *** and call me surprised.  But I've certainly been more on the other side of things.

I think it's a big annoying when they slap on a heavy compression/limiting at the first sign of dynamics.   I've had to listen to that if I have keys only in my aux feed (and if that feed is pre-insert) and it's horrible.

What can you do, all I can do is try to get my monitors right, what comes out of FOH is up to the FOH engineer (or us in small bars where we run sound).

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

21 minutes ago, Bobbo Fett said:

Drums.....bass.....geeter.....maybe the chick singer (if she's cute) that's what goes in the FOH. All others can feel free to pound sand.....a story as old as live music.....

 

+2

 

We're learning "Rich Girl" by Hall and Oates....  Nice prominent electric piano sound, interesting rhythm, etc.  Then the guitar player decided it needed more guitar so he found a fast ska/punk version of it with NO discernible keyboards.  "Oh, but you can still play it!  It's the same chords!".  Sure, but no one will hear me.

[Stokely]

Yeah that's another annoying thing.  Every single song known to every classic rock player features guitar.   You pick one that features keyboard and promptly find a version that doesn't.

Not so extreme, but my band was talking about maybe doing Fly like an eagle, and I was both excited and maybe a bit nervous.  Then I heard "we should do the Seal version, it has a better groove."  W...T....F...  I like Seal, love his first album, but better groove?  More like, neutered organ that pales in comparison to the original, and  I happen to think the groove is way better on the SMiller version! 

[timwat]

Seems to me this phenomena is deeply rooted in the rock / classic rock world (and sound guys who come from those genre). 

 

Every band I've been in run by a rock guitar player (not matter what kind of music we were playing) had this problem. Every sound guy whose first preference was classic rock I've had this problem.

 

But most jazz, funk, R&B, reggae, etc. guys I've worked with - they want keys to be prominent. Of course, I'm sure there are exceptions out there. 

 

But I haven't run into them yet.

[vonnor]

7 minutes ago, timwat said:

...they want keys to be prominent...

I'd settle for somewhat audible, Tim.

 

~ vonnor

[CEB]

Our sound production is generally pretty good.  Just an empirical observation from the past 45 years or so.  Women at the mixing desks have not been very numerous but when I have crossed paths with them they have been very good.  My last set of shows have been with a young woman at the front desk. 

[El Lobo]

Few years ago, my band did a killer set at a festival. There's video, can't wait to see it.  Looking forward to using a clip for promo. My keys are set up with 2 speakers behind me so everybody on stage can hear me. Sound company is pro outfit, paid a lot of money to run sound for the main stage for 2 days of festival. We get the video a few days later. I crank it up to enjoy the good show we did. There are NO keys in the video. No sound from keys whatsoever. None at all. How can that be? We heard it on stage. But no, the sound company did not have keys at all in the mains so no keys in the video.

[erik_nie]

We have a XM-18 as FOH mixer, out bass-player with great ears does the soundcheck with a long cable using an iPad.

I have the FOH stereo mix in my ears. I try to coach everyone in keep the right balans and have the iPad to compensate.
we discuss the volumes of solo's, sounds and everyone tries to avoid to ride the volume fader during the night. 

I know the balance because we played in the same setup for years. Besides some low-end tweaking per room our mix is almost always fine in one minute (helps that we have a full digital drum kit and no sound on stage, only in-ear).
During a gig I can make minor adjustments if i hear a volume issue.

 

The fact that I can hear my keys well enough, is most likely because they are a little bit too loud. Then again I invested in my Nord gear and been busy with sound tweaking a lot...

 

Even on big gigs, we only provide stereo to the FOH, too many bad sound-guys. They can now focus on the EQ and volume. If we know the guy and trust him, he gets the iPad.

Works for us.

 

[MathOfInsects]

The reverse scenario can be equally nightmarish: you don't hear keys very well on stage, so do all sorts of little things that you think are audible only to you. Then later you see video and find the keys were prominent out front and your stupid "let me play my harmony note in advance" moment sharted all over the prechorus. 

[El Lobo]

6 minutes ago, CEB said:

... Women at the mixing desks have not been very numerous but when I have crossed paths with them they have been very good.  My last set of shows have been with a young woman at the front desk. 

2 of the best sound engineers I have ever had the pleasure to work with have been women. Yes, they are few and far between in the sound engineer world. Maybe they have to be so much better than men in order to get the gig. When you're working with a sound person who really knows what they're doing, you know it right away and it's very satisfying, very confidence-building in your own musical efforts.

[jerrythek]

I just want to second/third the issue of rolling off lows on your sounds/boards. What sounds good by itself is of no meaning... it's all about how it fits into the band's mix. None of us likely audition our sounds when we're setting them up through the size/amount of subs we'll be playing through. Nor with the bass player playing at the same time. This is the #1 "fix" to avoid the soundperson turning you down.

 

Jerry

[Baldwin Funster]

If you don't have a sound tech that knows your band and knows your songs, the keyboard level has no chance of being where you want it.

My preferred blend is different from song to song and from verse to chorus. Not to mention I have an organ solo on a song or 2 per set that need to be boosted to be at the level of a guitar solo or lead vocal. Cause that's what a solo is, loud and featured. If the sound tech has the keys at the right mix all night but doesn't crank up your organ solo that's a FAIL on his part. So I make sure I have my own monitor with enough juice that I can crank that up and boost my solo myself like a guitarist. It only comes off the stage but it tends to be effective.. That can really set the sound tech off.

[Reezekeys]

I leave some headroom on my keys volume so I can boost it for solos, because I know I'm not that prominent in the mix – which is fine with me. I'm wearing ears so have no clue what it sounds like out front. I have to trust that everybody is a professional, and as I try to do the best I can at my job  - play the right notes at the right time - whoever is doing sound should do the same. Of course I'm a sideman, not the "star", so my attitude might change if I were ever to lead a gig somewhere with an audience that's actually there to see little 'ole me - but those gigs are very rare and usually in small clubs or restaurants where there's no PA or sound person - just me and my PPAs.

 

In general I think arguing with a sound person is a losing battle. The only one that can do anything about a shit sound person is the one who hired him or her. Make your case to them and good luck. A tape from the sound board with low or no audible keys is a pretty good start! If you can't get a satisfactory resolution from that, and continuing to do gigs with the band is just an exercise in frustration...BAIL. My .02!

[The Real MC]

5 hours ago, vonnor said:

I'ma put the ear-bugs away and go back to on-stage amplification - anybody know a great powered speaker for keys that is real loud?

QSC KW-122.  

 

Bought one last year, birch plywood cabinet so all the sound goes out front not the sides like cheaper polymer cabinets.

Has two inputs - I use one for keyboard monitor (that I control), the other for vocals and other instruments from FOH or monitor board.

 

If you want loud, mount them on a tripod stand where it is in your face.  Floor monitors won't be loud, and I have had weird EQ/volume problems with the cabinet on the floor.  It's more consistent on a tripod stand.

[ABECK]

 

29 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I leave some headroom on my keys volume so I can boost it for solos, because I know I'm not that prominent in the mix – which is fine with me.

Always!

[The Real MC]

2 hours ago, Lou Gehrig Charles said:

We're learning "Rich Girl" by Hall and Oates....  Nice prominent electric piano sound, interesting rhythm, etc.  Then the guitar player decided it needed more guitar so he found a fast ska/punk version of it with NO discernible keyboards.  "Oh, but you can still play it!  It's the same chords!".  Sure, but no one will hear me.

 

I have quit bands that pull that on me.  Passive-aggressive approach of guitar players dominating the mix.

[MathOfInsects]

The Lake Street Dive version of Rich Girl is the canonical version for me at this point. 

[The Real MC]

I know this too well as I have suffered from sound guys who are friends with the guitar player.  Anymore that's a red flag when auditioning a band.

My recent experiences with sound guys the past seven years have been positive.  The guitar player(s) in the bands I was playing in did have an appreciation for my keyboard work, when they hire out sound they emphasize to make sure I am heard in the mix.  One other band had their own sound guy with his own system, and keys in the mix were never a problem.  I always send a stereo mix to FOH; sound guy requested a separate send for my Taurus pedals as he puts a different EQ on them.  The band loved the pedals when they shook the room.

 

On several occasions my Minimoog solo during "Never Been Any Reason" was blasting in my monitor; I pre-program the volumes for everything for every song and I thought something was wrong with my setup.  So I asked the sound guy after the set if my Minimoog was too loud or if he was cranking it.  He was cranking it - he loved that big fat Moog sound.  And I play the dual lines like the original song so the unison glides at the end of the solo really stand out.

 

I'm currently gigging with a high school buddy who runs sound from the stage; I'm conscious of the songs with emphasis on guitar and I don't get in his way, and when I have solo spots he makes sure I am heard.  I had rhythm and solo volumes so he doesn't have to constantly ride my channel.  Can't complain.

I've gigged long enough to be careful that patches I use do not interfere with other instruments when playing rhythm.  Stay out of the bottom 1/3 of 88 note pianos, watch the bass on synth patches, be conscious of space during singing (even playing NOTHING).  If the sole guitar player is playing a solo, I'm fill in his rhythm parts so it doesn't sound empty.

[The Real MC]

2 hours ago, jerrythek said:

I just want to second/third the issue of rolling off lows on your sounds/boards. What sounds good by itself is of no meaning... it's all about how it fits into the band's mix. None of us likely audition our sounds when we're setting them up through the size/amount of subs we'll be playing through. Nor with the bass player playing at the same time. This is the #1 "fix" to avoid the soundperson turning you down.

 

Jerry

 

Another reason I almost never use factory patches.  While they may sound great in a solo context they often don't work in an ensemble.  ESPECIALLY if they're using heavy reverb.  90% of the patches I use are my own.

[Stokely]

54 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

I have quit bands that pull that on me.  Passive-aggressive approach of guitar players dominating the mix.

My "favorite" (because it was so silly) example of this was being in a band with two guitarists (NEVER AGAIN!).  One dude who played big cowboy chords on every song with a capo (holy out of tune batman) and the lead player who noodled all the freaking time.   We played some cool tunes but honestly not keyboard-centric stuff.   I had no-to-few solos, maybe the only featured parts were on a couple Cars tunes and on New Years Day by U2.  That is *hardly* a solo, it's a short melody line played on an electric grand.  So the noodler switches to his lead patch and decides to double it.  Really, guy?   If I'd stayed in that band I would have started learning his lead solos and "help out" with them with a Moog patch.

I rarely play in the lower octave and in any case roll off the low end on our mixer.  When we don't use our PA, I'll leave that to the sound guy.  Mainly I just avoid the issue by not playing bass notes.  If I did stuff like Jump I'd make sure the low end of that patch wouldn't be prominent with a custom patcch (as The Real MC is saying).

[jerrythek]

For sure... factory patches are designed to sound great by themselves, so they tend to have too much frequency content to fit into a mix. And I agree about reverb: I pushed the Korg voicing team to dry up their sounds for years. Thankfully on the Korg boards we always reserved Knob 8 (or Knob 4 on the smaller boards) for reverb depth so you can dry them up quickly. I like what Korg Italy did on the arranger boards: there's a global parameter to decrease reverb by percentage, so you can do it all at once!

 

Jerry

 

18 hours ago, The Real MC said:

 

Another reason I almost never use factory patches.  While they may sound great in a solo context they often don't work in an ensemble.  ESPECIALLY if they're using heavy reverb.  90% of the patches I use are my own.

 

[CEB]

The factory programs on Kronos 2 centered rig was certainly easier to sound prep for my live combis than my past Fantom and Yamaha based setups.  The Korg has been great.  I generally send the patches bone dry to the combis then I will add a very tiny amount of O-verb in the combi for feel. The Kronos has a ton of punch. 
 

The hardest thing to get right are airy and trance pads that are used in a lot of Pop songs. Not much a sound guy can do if you are playing with amateur wankers that can’t observe the the feel of the song and rest when they are suppose to rest. Those pads will be buried.   Moral of the story, Don’t work with amateurs.  

[miden]

And would this also happen to John, Joel et al?? Don't think so...sound guys would be sacked on the spot!