Playing Live - keyboard patch levelling with 2 keyboards

[Briggs]

This may have been covered, but I’m new here and wanted to open up this topic. I’m moderately new to playing keys live (previously a drummer) and have some areas I’m struggling to find a general consensus on that were highlighted in my last gig.

 

Some background. I run a Juno DS 88 and a VR-09b through a personal mixer and send just 2 channels (left and right) to the main desk. I will sometimes incorporate stereo DIs but rarely for small gigs. I also have in ears feeding me a mix from front of house so I can here the levels between the two and control this throughout the gig.

 

This set up allows me to manage the mix between the two keyboards as I find it near impossible to level every patch to sit perfectly without adjustment throughout a performance.

 

The issue: my patch levels are not consistent, despite numerous hours attempting to fix, however I’m finding this is common from conversations I have had. At my last gig the sound guy (an experienced guy) was keen on sending both keyboards separately to the main mixer, giving him 2 sets of stereo lines. This gave him more control, but made it near impossible for me to manage the level between the two keyboards as my in ears feed didn’t necessarily reflect FOH. I understood his point but my set up has been working for me.

 

Footage from the gig made it clear that a lot of the time the levels of the keys were really poor, or not heard at all, however my in ear mic was great. This is because both keyboards were mixed separately in my in ears so gave me no reflection of the balance between the two FOH.

 

What are your thoughts here? Is there a better way to level my patches, should I have stuck to my guns and kept my original set up giving me control of the balance between the two keyboards; or should I be trusting the sound guy, relinquishing control and awareness of the balance and levels?

 

I am still thinking my original set up of just sending a single stereo mix for the two keys to the main desk works best.

[Bobby Simons]

Stick to your guns, unless you have the utmost faith in the guy behind the board. It became a moot point long ago for me when I went full Mainstage. One left and one right was all there was.

[vonnor]

A constant and time-consuming challenge.

 

I do mix 2 boards plus 3-4 VST instruments on stage (RME Fireface UC) and send either a mono or stereo signal to FOH depending on their preference. A few months ago I got the chance to do an extended Keys sound-check with our regular (and very good) sound tech. He coached me on the real glaring level discrepancies  between some patches which helped a lot, but that was still solo - no other instruments were at-volume at the time.

 

A couple weeks ago I set up a stereo audio (ambient) Zoom recorder just beyond the dance floor and recorded the whole show. I am still tweaking patch levels based on review of that audio. Some songs have a LOT of patches being covered in different key ranges on different boards, and some key ranges being routed to VST's and/or layered with other patches, so it's a lot of work.

 

"Rebel Yell" and "Feels Like The First Time" still being tweaked, having 4 and 5 patches respectively. The real hard part is balancing overall keys level per song (louder like "Jump" and "Dreams-VH", or more back in the mix like some of our Def Leppard covers), against relative patch levels in a given song.

 

A constant and time-consuming challenge.

 

~ vonnor

[Delaware Dave]

You indicated that the in ears were balanced between the two keyboards but the FOH wasnt.  I would somehow then figure out how to get the properly leveled in ear mix's output to the FOH.  I mix my various keyboards at my mixer to ensure the volume balance between all instruments is leveled, the send the mixer's output to my monitor as well as to FOH.  This way if I'm balanced in volume in my monitor then the signal going to the FOH is also volume leveled.

[Reezekeys]

I'm all in the box but the principle is the same - do not let someone else decide your own mix – I'm talking about the relative levels of your multiple keyboards, not the overall keys level (which as you note, mr or mrs FOH will often have near inaudible - that's another subject!). On my controller, I have sliders programmed to control volumes of however many sounds are coming from all the virtual instruments playing. I send one stereo mix of me to the house and monitor myself through a Rolls in-ears mixer. It may not be the perfect solution but it's the best I can do. I can easily adjust all levels in real time, but it sounds like my needs are simpler, since I'm doing bread & butter sounds and not mixing more that two or three separate patches at the same time.

 

1 hour ago, Briggs said:

This gave him more control, but made it near impossible for me to manage the level between the two keyboards as my in ears feed didn’t necessarily reflect FOH. I understood his point but my set up has been working for me.

 

I'm guessing my attitude is not one shared by many or even most on this board but I say - mix for you, let the FOH person do his or her job and let the chips fall where they may. Your job is to play the music as well as you can, and to do that you need to hear a satisfying mix of yourself. I don't worry or think about "my sound" in the house - that's the sound person't job. I do have a bug up my ass about the sound person "producer" type that's constantly adjusting everyone's levels, especially your keyboards' relative levels. You can always tell a professional sound person because they get things right at sound check or during the first song, and for the rest of the night you'll see them sitting at the console, arms folded.

 

Here's what I think about your exact problem - one's perception of a "leveled" patch between two keyboards is going to vary gig to gig because the sound of the band and what you're getting in your monitors will likely never be the same – room acoustics also play a part. What I might do is spend time at home stepping through my multi-keyboard patches, adjusting levels in the patches, then saving that to the patch memories. That might help, though you'll probably have to be making minor adjustments during the gig. I've been playing with the same band for over ten years and I definitely tweak things a bit during our shows, although they're usually small moves, also very quick & easy as the volume sliders for all my sounds are directly in front of me.

[Stokely]

Common problem.  It's not easy even with one keyboard to be consistent.

 

I personally have always liked to submix.  FOH and the band only sees "keys" no matter how many I have.  I have more control to be able to match volumes that way.  Unless you have a dedicated engineer, they are not likely to quickly know which keyboard is too low or too high, especially if you do a lot of splits and layers.

I see a couple things that make it worse.  If you are like me and do some gigs stereo and some mono, or have a mix of monitoring and FOH in stereo or mono for you/bandmates/engineer, that has introduced a new variable.  The same patches can (not always) fluctuate in stereo vs mono.

Everything can sound different on different speakers/earbuds too.  So patches that sound equal on your (e.g.) Yamaha DXR wedge might not sound that way through the QSCs out front.   Your drummer on IEMs is getting yet another version.  Edit: and Reezekeys mentioned the room, that is a factor.  

Another factor is the band.  Patches that are leveled at home suddenly start popping out or getting submerged once the band plays.  Mainly this will be guitar since it shares the midrange but vocals and even bass and drums can do it too.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that live sound engineers LOVE to slap very heavy compression on keys the second that they thing patches are too loud.  Some of them do it up front.  I've had aux mixes where my keys are in the mix post-insert and I can hear that crap, and absolutely hate it.

This challenge is one reason I try to re-use patches and don't have any desire to set up a dedicated patch per song if I can help it.  The more patches you have, the worse the problem is.   I also am of the opinion that less fx help this issue and help instruments cut.  Guitarists/keyboardists with tons of verb on their patches can make a big mess where it's hard to hear anything yet it's too loud, especially in rooms that are "live".   Fx are also the biggest problem with stereo-to-mono, other than stereo sampled pianos.  

[vonnor]

26 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

...I do have a bug up my ass about the sound person "producer" type that's constantly adjusting everyone's levels, especially your keyboards' relative levels. You can always tell a professional sound person because they get things right at sound check or during the first song, and for the rest of the night you'll see them sitting at the console, arms folded...

Not meaning to hijack a thread, but I have to respectfully disagree - for the very reason this topic was brought up in the O.P.

 

I ran sound for a local cover band for 3 years, while in between keyboard gigs. The band I worked with had keys as well as the guitarist switching off acoustic/electric. I was always riding the keyboard fader and often had to adjust it to make a given song sound like the original recording. Granted, 90% of the work happened during the 1st 8 bars of each tune, but this guy's patch levels were all over the place: Some too loud/bright, some you couldn't hear at all. Also, I made sure the acoustic was at a level consistent with the song as the original artist recorded it.

 

Also, to say "{adjusting} your keyboards' relative levels" is a bit old-school thinking - and to be honest we've had sound techs that still think that way. They see my hand on the kronos but have no idea that the sound is coming from VB-3 or DIVA in the computer and not from the kronos (which is actually the sound generator for my other hand that is playing keys on the Nord at the time!). During breaks, our regular tech (mentioned in my previous post) coaches me on relative levels referencing the parts of the song (chorus, bridge), or tone ("that bellish sound you use in the verses") rather than the instrument who's keys I happen to be pushing down at the time.

 

MIDI, biatches! 

 

~ vonnor

[Tusker]

Keyboards are different from a drum kit even though they are both multi-timbral.

 

With drums the player's actions determines the relative volumes of the instruments for the most part. For example if a particular funk groove needs light, fast hi-hat triplet fills, the drummer will work particularly hard to make sure the hi hat is not too splashy. By contrast, in keyboards, the setting of levels between songs accommodates most of the dynamic variation. The keyboard velocity can have some effect on something like a piano, but on something like a B3 or a synth pad, it can be of no effect.

 

For this reason a keyboardist cannot trust a sound guy to ride the faders. Your typical sound guy has no idea if a particular instrument is going to be paying role A or role B in an upcoming song. (It's different if the sound guy travels with the band and knows the set list well. A keyboard tech can sometimes ride the faders very effectively!)

 

So what's a keyboardist to do?

 

On a per song basis, save patches with the required volume levels baked in. Submix yourself and give yourself a submix slider for overall volume. (Your guitar player could be using different amplification and you might need to adjust.)

 

Those levels that you set will need to be revisited after your rehearsal with your band. You will find that even if you initially set them carefully with a backing track of your band, there will be issues. Take notes and adjust iteratively with your rig till the problems start to subside. Over time the problems will settle unless your band is very prone to volume creep, in which case you have your submix slider. Hope this helps.

[Reezekeys]

13 minutes ago, vonnor said:

57 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

...I do have a bug up my ass about the sound person "producer" type that's constantly adjusting everyone's levels, especially your keyboards' relative levels. You can always tell a professional sound person because they get things right at sound check or during the first song, and for the rest of the night you'll see them sitting at the console, arms folded...

Not meaning to hijack a thread, but I have to respectfully disagree - for the very reason this topic was brought up in the O.P.

 

Fair enough, but you're a sound person who's also a musician - not typical. Also you said you were working with the same band for 3 years so knew the material. It seems like the keyboard player couldn't get it together in three years to get consistent levels – well, nobody's perfect, I guess! 🙂 

 

Speaking for myself only: when I have two or more sounds going, whether on separate keyboards, in the box, layered or split, *I* decide the relative levels, not a sound person. I've been doing this long enough to have confidence in my mixing decisions. What happens at FOH is out of my control and I can only hope the sound person has me at a good level and my multiple sounds are being heard correctly. If so, great, if not, c'est la vie.

[vonnor]

9 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Fair enough, but you're a sound person who's also a musician - not typical. Also you said you were working with the same band for 3 years so knew the material. It seems like the keyboard player couldn't get it together in three years to get consistent levels – well, nobody's perfect, I guess! 🙂 

 

Speaking for myself only: when I have two or more sounds going, whether on separate keyboards, in the box, layered or split, *I* decide the relative levels, not a sound person. I've been doing this long enough to have confidence in my mixing decisions. What happens at FOH is out of my control and I can only hope the sound person has me at a good level and my multiple sounds are being heard correctly. If so, great, if not, c'est la vie.

Totally agree, RK. In a perfect situation, yes. A good sound person can get things sounding great during soundcheck or the 1st couple tunes, then just enjoy the music. This does assume that everyone - guitar(s), bass, keys - have their individual relative levels fine tuned. And that is basically the end goal of this discussion.

 

BTW, that keyboard player was a concert tuba player, but he just didn't give a F about spending time on his side hustle (keyboards) The gentleman is no longer with that band...

 

~ vonnor

[Briggs]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

You indicated that the in ears were balanced between the two keyboards but the FOH wasnt.  I would somehow then figure out how to get the properly leveled in ear mix's output to the FOH.  I mix my various keyboards at my mixer to ensure the volume balance between all instruments is leveled, the send the mixer's output to my monitor as well as to FOH.  This way if I'm balanced in volume in my monitor then the signal going to the FOH is also volume leveled.

Thanks for this. The issue is that we’re using apps so we can control our individual monitor mixes, so the ability to be able to mix the keyboards separately actually is a hindrance as it causes my in ears to not reflect the balance between the too in the FOH mix.

[Briggs]

Well, what amazing responses - thank you everyone. It’s really nice to hear that my initial thoughts and set up were not miles off. It’s great to hear the opinions of sound engineers too.

 

Whilst some of my patches could do with being tweaked in the patch itself, as many of you have said it’s near impossible or to achieve consistency. It’s decided, I will stick to my guns and manage the balance of my two keyboards at the source and let the sound engineer have one stereo feed with both my keys.

 

Thanks to you all again for such detailed responses!!

[Briggs]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

Common problem.  It's not easy even with one keyboard to be consistent.

 

I personally have always liked to submix.  FOH and the band only sees "keys" no matter how many I have.  I have more control to be able to match volumes that way.  Unless you have a dedicated engineer, they are not likely to quickly know which keyboard is too low or too high, especially if you do a lot of splits and layers.

I see a couple things that make it worse.  If you are like me and do some gigs stereo and some mono, or have a mix of monitoring and FOH in stereo or mono for you/bandmates/engineer, that has introduced a new variable.  The same patches can (not always) fluctuate in stereo vs mono.

Everything can sound different on different speakers/earbuds too.  So patches that sound equal on your (e.g.) Yamaha DXR wedge might not sound that way through the QSCs out front.   Your drummer on IEMs is getting yet another version.  Edit: and Reezekeys mentioned the room, that is a factor.  

Another factor is the band.  Patches that are leveled at home suddenly start popping out or getting submerged once the band plays.  Mainly this will be guitar since it shares the midrange but vocals and even bass and drums can do it too.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that live sound engineers LOVE to slap very heavy compression on keys the second that they thing patches are too loud.  Some of them do it up front.  I've had aux mixes where my keys are in the mix post-insert and I can hear that crap, and absolutely hate it.

This challenge is one reason I try to re-use patches and don't have any desire to set up a dedicated patch per song if I can help it.  The more patches you have, the worse the problem is.   I also am of the opinion that less fx help this issue and help instruments cut.  Guitarists/keyboardists with tons of verb on their patches can make a big mess where it's hard to hear anything yet it's too loud, especially in rooms that are "live".   Fx are also the biggest problem with stereo-to-mono, other than stereo sampled pianos.  

You comment on compression, I am very interested in exploring this topic more. The sound guy informed me it was standard to be compressing keys, but I understand he was using compression to help level my sound. I could have understood him wrong but I do know compression was being used quite heavily.

 

This thread has reminded me that this is a subject I’ve seen brought up elsewhere so I may start a new three on this subject if it doesn’t already exists.

 

Its always hard when people with experience have conflicting thoughts but I can imagine compression impacts the sounds I spend so long creating.

[Noah DC]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

I'm guessing my attitude is not one shared by many or even most on this board but I say - mix for you, let the FOH person do his or her job and let the chips fall where they may. Your job is to play the music as well as you can, and to do that you need to hear a satisfying mix of yourself. I don't worry or think about "my sound" in the house - that's the sound person't job.

 

This. I have never understood the interest among folks on these boards in controlling the balance of what is sent to FOH. You definitely want your own monitor mix to sound as good as it can be - and that can be achieved either through a soundcheck with a good sound tech or by using your own monitor (I have a Motion Sound stereo amp that works just fine for this purpose). But in my view, it is actually a bad thing to send FOH a single feed with your piano and organ and synth combined. It means that the FOH tech will have to ride the levels even more than they otherwise would as you move between your different sounds, all of which have different amounts of gain and need different volume levels to cut through properly from the mains. And it means that you are inserting your own control over a FOH output that by definition you cannot hear from your station on stage. To be sure, I have to compile my boards into a single feed via my Numa X Piano mixer quite a bit, usually for gigs where there is not enough room on the FOH board for multiple stereo ins. But I would never choose to do that if I had the option to avoid it.

[Stokely]

41 minutes ago, Briggs said:

You comment on compression, I am very interested in exploring this topic more. The sound guy informed me it was standard to be compressing keys, but I understand he was using compression to help level my sound. I could have understood him wrong but I do know compression was being used quite heavily.

 

This thread has reminded me that this is a subject I’ve seen brought up elsewhere so I may start a new three on this subject if it doesn’t already exists.

 

Its always hard when people with experience have conflicting thoughts but I can imagine compression impacts the sounds I spend so long creating.

Compression certainly can change a patch timbre and dynamics but a lot depends on the amount--the threshold, ratio etc.  If I'm monitoring in such a way that I hear my keys in an aux that is post-insert, then I'll hear it--and often they really smash the sound, to the point where you can hear the attack and then the body of a sound as two things.  Ideally, I'll monitor so that I can't hear that crap, and the engineer will be doing what they like to the sound out front to make a mix.  Sadly I think some of them just slap heavy compression or even limiting on keys by default, I've even heard one guy say he worries about keys overdriving his console (WTF....it's not going to break it even if it is a bit too hot).   To be fair, you get some really unprofessional bands even in pro/corporate settings...singers that soundcheck at low volume and then scream into the mic when the show starts, etc.  I've heard horror stories and experienced some myself when running sound...so if they don't know you, they might kind of assume the worst until proven otherwise  

I've dabbled with mild compression on my keys channel, up on the mixer...no more than 3 db at mild ratios like 2:1.   However, Eric here on the forums pointed something out I hadn't really considered--if you boost for a solo, what will that do?  It's going to hit the compressor harder and potentially you could get very little actual volume but a whole bunch of squashed sound (again, depends on the setting).   So I go very light and with settings that aren't going to be a wall.   

In general, and this applies to mixing in general, I've never looked at compression as any kind of fix to volume jumps.  That's when you need automation, or gain editing, or simply another take    Unless you are going for more of a special effect, I see compression as a way to fine tune channels to get just a little bit of help in sitting in a mix.  Too much compression on anything and you lose dynamics and transients (ie, punch and energy).

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, Noah DC said:

To be sure, I have to compile my boards into a single feed via my Numa X Piano mixer quite a bit, usually for gigs where there is not enough room on the FOH board for multiple stereo ins. But I would never choose to do that if I had the option to avoid it.

 

Lucky you if a sound person is OK with managing your multiple keyboards' levels from song to song! I'll take my chances with sending a stereo mix. I don't have the option anyway, our input list is long enough and nobody wants to add to it. Most sound persons I've run across are the "set & forget" type or the "look at me, I'm a producer" kind. I don't sweat any of this anymore - just get on stage, try to have some fun and do the best job I can. The sound person can mute me in the house – if the check clears and myself and the band can hear me, I'm good. My attitude might change if I ever do a gig where I'm the featured attraction - but besides being rare, those are never in venues with sound systems - they're restaurants & small clubs with no PA for the instruments, where I have full control over my sound.

[niacin]

 

[niacin]

Unless you want that side chain compressor pumping effect when you're playing a lead over a pad sound I'd avoid compression.  I use compression on electric piano sounds cause I want the change in timbre but not so much in volume, but there is imo no reason for the sound guy to have it on keys at the desk, but unless you have some control over said sound guy it's not a battle worth fighting.

[Stokely]

My experience is that they almost always slap it on, and I've done a decent job (IMO) in leveling as best I can.   What they put on is usually limiting, or something close to it.  It sounds awful in monitors and makes it hard to play, so I do my best to always monitor pre-FOH when we aren't using our PA.  

When mixing live multitracks, I tend to compress at least a bit as well, though not on tracks with mics (vocals) much or else you'll be bringing up bleed.

But point taken, once the sound is in the mixer that's the engineer's domain.  If it's a house engineer, well it's his house   If it's *your* engineer then you need to work with them to get something everyone is happy with.  I found out yesterday that we are going to be using a soundperson at every gig, I think the bandleaders are paying them from their portion but I'm not positive (money isn't really the main reason I play so I don't really care)--I think it's a good idea, he's an old friend of theirs that has done a lot of live sound mixing, and I think our biggest challenge for years now has been getting a good mix out front.  It's very, very difficult to mix from stage no matter how consistent everybody is.   And the reality is that people will judge the band on the sound, which is hardly fair but it is what it is.  Hell, they'll judge you on a crappy overdriven cell phone video on facebook but what can you do.  "That band sucks, listen!"

We also talked again about adding splitters to our rig.   If we do, then our monitoring will *always* be the same every gig no matter if we are using our PA or a house PA or something set up by a sound company.   The splitter(s) will feed both our mixer and their snake/mixer with every vocal mic and instrument, and each party can do with those signals what they like without affecting the other.  More to shlep and more cost up front, but way less hassle at certain gigs.  The house soundpeople will love it because they won't have to mess with monitor mixes at all, or give us access to their wifi and troubleshoot why its not working etc.

[Noah DC]

20 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Lucky you if a sound person is OK with managing your multiple keyboards' levels from song to song! I'll take my chances with sending a stereo mix. I don't have the option anyway, our input list is long enough and nobody wants to add to it. Most sound persons I've run across are the "set & forget" type or the "look at me, I'm a producer" kind. I don't sweat any of this anymore - just get on stage, try to have some fun and do the best job I can. The sound person can mute me in the house – if the check clears and myself and the band can hear me, I'm good. My attitude might change if I ever do a gig where I'm the featured attraction - but besides being rare, those are never in venues with sound systems - they're restaurants & small clubs with no PA for the instruments, where I have full control over my sound.

 

Totally agree that is a very "lucky" situation is the sound person has opening on the mixer for more than one stereo board! But it is definitely on offer here and there (or even preferred by a few sound techs I've encountered), usually at higher-end clubs - The Hamilton here in DC, for example - or big festival stages. For the average gig at a bar or small club, I sum everything through my Numa X internal mixer - it's one of the main reasons I bought that board.

[Stokely]

I have heard both sides...they don't like seeing a submixer (as they might be noisy, set up incorrectly gain-staging wise, or might fail) between an instrument and their mixer,  but they also don't really want to try to mix multiple keyboards either.  As others have said, they have no way to know for sure which keyboard is making which sound unless one of them isn't playing at the time.   Or if they are old-school simple, like a Rhodes and a synth.

Philosophically, simple is good, less gain stages is "better" if you can get by with that.   I know a friend's band has some issues with the lead singer's mic running through a "vocal pedal" (gross, gross, gross as far as I'm concerned, and not only for the fake harmonies he does with it)...he'll crank it up because he needs to hear himself more and then complain that his mic sounds distorted.  Or turn the damn reverb on that thing too high because he likes it in his monitor.  That is the kind of thing a sound engineer hates--I've run sound for them myself and when people do that kind of thing it ties your hands completely.
 

I've always submixed, going back to using my Emu Proteus as a mixer.  Currently I use a Key Largo which also means I don't need direct box(es).  It has a ground lift and is high quality, none of the sound people have had anything to say about it (seeing "Radial" probably puts their mind at ease). 

Edit: I'd say mixers also can help with monitoring.  I could use the "monitor out" of my key largo to go to a headphone amp (my Rolls) or a powered speaker or amp.  Whatever keyboards are running through the KL get summed to that one monitor line.   Without the mixer, I'd have to run multiple outs of each keyboard to multiple ins of such a speaker, which gets more difficult the more sound sources you have.  It would be impossible with my Modx, and impossible with a lot of monitoring amps/speakers.  That's if you want to monitor independently of FOH and don't want to rely on a return from the main console.

[CEB]

Good luck on patch balance. Not everything is supposed to be the same all the time.  It can be an ordeal.  
 

Before February I did both. I ran a single keyboard submix from my rack which I monitored through IEMs using dual mono mix mode with no keys in my monitor send from the desk.  If our man William was running front desk I would give him two separate sends.  He liked it that way. Both worked fine. 

Mixing keyboards on separate desk channels is no big deal.  It’s the old approach. The organ was never on the same channel as the other instruments. Hell the organ alone was on 2-3 channels. 😀.  
 

Now I don’t do anything. 
 

Work with good people it’s all good. Work with bad people it’s all bad.  I’m the piano player not the sound man. Worrying about FOH was above my pay grade. 

[Stokely]

Good point CEB, if your band is at all dynamic then any patch leveling goes out the window or at least becomes even more difficult.   A song like "Drift Away" which we play for example...that's quite a bit less "strident" than some of our other tunes.  The guitarist plays softer, drums are softer, and if I play the same rhodes, strings or organ (I tend to switch it up on that one) that works on a balls-out tune like Flirtin' with Disaster etc, its going to overwhelm the song.  I either need a separate patch (nope) or adjust dynamics, overdrive, volume and playing style down a notch.  And that's an inexact science volume-wise...

 

[CEB]

Since 2013 I had it kind of easy in some ways.  I played synth heavy Pop. I was always heard. 1) The production guys were good. 2) It was synth heavy Pop, if the keys got buried in the mix there was no music. LOL.   I got away from some of the problems with guitar heavy music. 

[CowboyNQ]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:19 AM, Reezekeys said:

 

Lucky you if a sound person is OK with managing your multiple keyboards' levels from song to song! I'll take my chances with sending a stereo mix. I don't have the option anyway, our input list is long enough and nobody wants to add to it. Most sound persons I've run across are the "set & forget" type or the "look at me, I'm a producer" kind. I don't sweat any of this anymore - just get on stage, try to have some fun and do the best job I can. The sound person can mute me in the house – if the check clears and myself and the band can hear me, I'm good. My attitude might change if I ever do a gig where I'm the featured attraction - but besides being rare, those are never in venues with sound systems - they're restaurants & small clubs with no PA for the instruments, where I have full control over my sound.

This very much aligns with my philosophy.

 

I take great care to get all my patch relativities right, but once it gets sent to FOH there’s not much I can do about it, so I don’t waste energy worrying about it.  What it is is what it is.

 

I would never send multiple channels to FOH (apart from stereo L&R) even if the sound engineer begged me to do it.  Unless I were consistently working with the same person (which I don’t), there is just no way I would expect them to competently balance multiple keys in real time.  A lot of them struggle with just the stereo pair.

[cphollis]

It's different when you're doing sound for your band. We rehearse with the same setup we perform with: IEMs, X32, presets, etc.  I spend a lot of time leveling patches during rehearsals.  I listen to the FOH mix, and adjust accordingly.  Bottom line, my preset volumes are where I expect them to be 98% of the time, as is the rest of the band's volume.  Unless I moved a knob and I forgot.

 

Most of the time, I hire a sound tech that uses our gear.  They don't have a lot to do, since most of the mixing work was done ahead of time.  When it's someone else's system, it's an X32 most of the time, so my "stage mixer" can be controlled by their board.  I also have a 16-channel splitter in case we end up in an incompatible situation.

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Expression pedal, and start with midi vol on about 30 to start each song. In my current band I only need B3, lush strings and stax horn section. And never more than one per song.

But the volume of the band on a per song basis is all over the place. So if I relied on a static patch level I would need a named patch for every one of up to 40 songs. And even then I doubt I could get by without adjusting on the fly.

So I just have the 3 sounds and I dump the midi CC 7 before each song and creep it up to the level I want at the start of the song. Then I ride the exp pedal.  

I do need to level the patches a little bit more beforehand because B3X is twice as loud as the other 2 patches I run from AUM. There doesn't seem to be a global volume level in b3x so I need to go in to the cabinet page and find the leslie output fader and pull that down and save that in my default preset.

[Stokely]

No matter what you do on stage, you can't *really* know how levels are out front without someone out there.   Speakers and rooms vs monitors and all that.  We've decided to hire a guy for most shows, he's a friend and while he hasn't done a ton of live mixing (he'd cost too much if that were the case) he's willing to give it a shot.  I hope he'll work out.   Not only to evaluate him, I've been meaning to do some recording using a zoom unit out front--while this won't sound all that great, you'll hear if something is way out of whack.  Until now I (as I have the most experience in the band) try to run out front during a soundcheck (if we have one) with the lead singer banging on keys--which is FAR from ideal.   And of course when the next song rolls around it can be a new ballgame.   Best you can do without someone out front is to get it right before the show and try to stay consistent.  And hope the manager doesn't come running up telling you to turn down, ugh.

[Al Quinn]

On 6/14/2023 at 8:08 AM, Briggs said:

Footage from the gig made it clear that a lot of the time the levels of the keys were really poor, or not heard at all, however my in ear mic was great.

From what you’ve described the sound guy is incompetent and needs to be replaced. It’s inexcusable that the keys were, at times, not heard at all. The recording doesn’t lie.
 

I always want the responsibility of balancing my sounds on a live gig rather than having the sound person do it. For me, balancing my sounds is an important part of the music I bring to the stage. A good sound person can then focus on mixing the band well. If they have any comments on the balance choices I’ve made, I’m all ears.

[B4i]

As has been said above, balancing your own sounds is important. My band does about 30 songs a gig and I use around 150 sounds across two keyboards and Mainstage either layered or split (with some one shot samples thrown in too). It takes time and practice but it makes for a consistent sound gig to gig. If I solo i also boost myself.

 

We have a fairly consistent sound guy who can control overall level of the band, but we try not to rely on him for song to song changes as we a) don't always have him and b) don't have him for festival gigs.