2023: CP4 instead of CP88?

[CHarrell]

I haven't said this yet, but thanks to everyone's posts here, I've definitively decided to go for a CP4 when I get my next check or when I can sell my Minilogue XD, whichever comes first. 

 

This will be the first time I've ever went backwards technologically with an instrument I've owned ...and I'm actually kinda excited. The features amd capabilities of the CP4 seem to be very distinct from the 88, so really I'm getting a "new" instrument. I'm excited to mess around with the SCM...people are saying the 88 has better electric pianos but I'm a tweaker (I also like changing parameters of instruments). It sounds really cool to change up an e piano to my liking--definitely wouldn't be something I do live, but usually it's instrument combinations and effects that I change up in those situations anyways. Having more sophisticated sound editing potential for different sounds is really nice, too.

 

So here I am, a CP88 fanboy...I look forward to giving y'all updates when I can snag one!

[ElmerJFudd]

7 hours ago, pjd said:

Athan Bilias (Yamaha) once posted the following information on the Piano World Forum (9/12/2013):

 

Spectral Component Modeling

Frankly we can understand how people are confused by the Spectral Component Modeling system because it is not one individual technology, but a system.

It's easiest to understand by breaking down the words.

Full Spectral Component Modeling (all three words) is used ONLY on the tine and reed models. Full Spectral Modeling means that those EP sounds DO NOT have velocity layers and we challenge anyone to to find them because they simply don't exist. There are continuous spectral changes across the entire range of velocities which are not based on sample switching, but windowed spectral data.

Component Modeling is used through out the CP 4 and 40 Stage series and as the words imply means that certain components of the sound are modeled. For example another part of the component modeling of the EPs is the ability to adjust the tine position. This technology is similar to the FDSP technology found in the EX5 years ago. So this is Component Modeling of the tine pickup position.

The acoustic pianos and other sounds feature component modeling where aspects of the sound are modeled. Some of these component aspects (for example Note Off or Sound Board Resonance), Roland sometimes refers to as Behavior Modeling and are available in other Yamaha product that feature Advanced Articulation. Others are more DSP oriented and unique to SCM systems, for example there are mic preamp models so you can change the character of the piano by changing which mic preamp model is applied and what the actual EQ settings for the Mic Preamp are. Again this is modeling a component of the sound, but not necessarily modeling the whole sound itself.

At this time we are not using full Spectral Component Modeling on the acoustic pianos or other sounds for technical reasons.

Finally the Virtual Circuit Modeling is pure modeling in that it is mathematical models of resistors and capacitors that are then put together in virtual circuits that emulate vintage stomp box effects. These were developed by Toshi Kunimoto ( Dr. K) who developed the world' s first true physically modeled instrument the VL1 and the Tine position algorithms in FSDP.

It's the combination of all these components that come together and make up the Spectral Component Modeling system.

"Does the CP1/5/50 handle velocity layers differently to the CP300/33?..yes."

Yes, the acoustic pianos have many, many more layers and the EPs use Spectral Component Modeling so there are no velocity splits at all, but continuously changing Spectral windows.

"Are there underlying Multi-velocity samples ?.. yes "

On the acoustic pianos, yes, on the EPs no.
 

This confirms what I understood from reading Yamaha’s product descriptions.  SCM on the CP1, 5, 50 compared to the CPs that have come since and the difference between the EP and AP engines.  What is modeled vs what is sampled. The acoustic pianos been sampled all along.   Modeling is used for effect… string resonance, mic preamps.  The EP engine on CP1/CP5 era however is entirely modeled.  

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

How far is that one on CL I posted in Walla Walla from Seattle ? That looks to be clean and at a good price.

 

 

 

A four hour drive. 😅

[CHarrell]

Did you get to check out that one at GC?

[CHarrell]

Well gentlemen, found one for $1,000 in Indiana...CP4 is officially inbound. And now the wait...

 

 

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Dave Ferris said:

I'll keep watching CL and FB Marketplace. I'm first in line when Sweetwater re-stocks on the CP88, so I'm cool with that for the time being. But yeah congrats, glad you found one.

 

Gotcha, I was wondering if you were gonna keep on with the 88 or go back to the 4. Ironically I'm in your opposite position, haha: if I were to get another 88, it'd be my third, and while I've made it abundantly clear I love the thing so much, I really wasn't feeling too enthused to pay the average going prices for yet another one.

[Bobadohshe]

Congrats on scoring one CHarrell. Sorry I haven't checked back in on this thread in awhile. Played a wedding yesterday with 2 CP4s. One for cocktail hour on the beach (Dave Ferris' former instrument!) and one in the top 40 set. I just love em. I hope you're happy.

[CHarrell]

19 hours ago, Bobadohshe said:

Congrats on scoring one CHarrell. Sorry I haven't checked back in on this thread in awhile. Played a wedding yesterday with 2 CP4s. One for cocktail hour on the beach (Dave Ferris' former instrument!) and one in the top 40 set. I just love em. I hope you're happy.

 

Was out of state for the past few days, gonna pick it up from FedEx tonight!

[ludo]

Enjoy CHarrell, CP4 is a keeper. Bought a second one in good shape 2 years ago after going CP88,73 and YC 73.

A few months ago i added a YC61 on top.

I’m done (for hardware piano’s).

Please post your findings…

[CHarrell]

Alright, y'all, played with it for a couple hours last night! Some first-night observations just spitballed in a random list:

 

-Even before I plugged it in, I could tell the keybed was noticeably lighter than the CP88. This surprised me, as even peeps like Blake Angelos would say things like "the CP88 is just a touch heavier". Maybe it's because I'd been playing the 88 for a couple years now, but it's a pretty big touch heavier! I think I might actually prefer the 88's keybed and connection to the pianos for now, but this was just my first night. I feel like the 88 is more responsive.

-Even though it's lighter than the CP88, I had a much harder time carrying it than the 88, probably due to its dimensions (I'm pretty short). Like it felt heavier than the 88.

-You can get pretty damn weird with it in not a lot of time. One of the benefits of having more tweakability than the 88.

-Can definitely see why people such as Bobadohshe said the 88's Rhodes and Wurlys were better! The default e-piano sounds are just...weird. Thankfully the 4 has presets like the 75RdsMW where it sounds good out the gate, but I was surprised. The SCM parameters are cool, and I like being able to make some strange tones with them, but it's not a standout feature for me by any means.

-As many have said, the menu diving is very intuitive. I do find some parameters strangely buried in like page 3 of an edit menu though.

-The base pianos sound nice, but the 15 variations honestly feel very miniscule to my first playing. I can see why they streamlined this in the 88, opting more for variety in piano models themselves rather than different tweakings of the sample sets. 

-I don't know what it is, it shouldn't be special, but the default way the mod wheel affects the sounds is just so musically satisfying to me.

-The effects categories confuse me. They have one for "Mod", for example, that includes a phaser, but then they have a separate category for phasers, that have different phasers. Can I get a Tim Allen in here?

-The pads here kick the 88's ass.

 

Feelings after one night? Well, all things considered, I do find myself still missing the 88, appreciating more some of the decisions they made to simplify things--though the 4's ability to tweak filter, ADSR, mono/poly, etc. are actually really nice to have. However, there were some moments last night, especially when I was with a patch for a few minutes, where I just played, and I could feel what some members on here were talking about. That's more than I can say for a lot of the keyboards I've been trying out for the last few months! Really the only other keyboards I can say this about is the ES920 and to a lesser extent the MP7SE.

 

So I want to give it a couple more days, it's definitely earnt that much. 

 

[CHarrell]

2 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

But I felt I could dig in more, like on an acoustic, on the CP4. In that sense the CP4 felt more comfortable and natural to play.

 

I'm going to check tonight with this in mind, and see how I feel!

 

2 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

But the CP4 CFX sound, no matter how well it sounds, or works with a band, still sounds dated to me.

 

I feel this as well. I've heard many people say they prefer the other two pianos, which I agree with, but...I do also feel it with them as well.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, CHarrell said:

though the 4's ability to tweak filter, ADSR, mono/poly, etc. are actually really nice to have.

 

...something added back to some extent or another in the YC88 and CK88 that followed the CP88. But as always, nothing has everything..

[CHarrell]

1 minute ago, AnotherScott said:

 

...something added back to some extent or another in the YC88 and CK88 that followed the CP88. But as always, nothing has everything..

 

I know. 😂 Dammit this is hard, haha. I do prefer the CP88's interface, but with the way the wind's been blowing, and coming to value these features, I'm beginning to wonder if a used YC88 might be my best bet after all....

[dje31]

Not to thread derail, but this conversation has renewed my interest in picking up a like-new CP5...

[CHarrell]

8 minutes ago, dje31 said:

Not to thread derail, but this conversation has renewed my interest in picking up a like-new CP5...

 

Why is that?

[CHarrell]

After playing it more yesterday, and thinking about all the comments here and elsewhere, such as by Yamaha reps in the past, I think I might've gotten a heavily used unit. It's still in good condition, make no mistake, but the keybed is so light I can't help but wonder if this unit has seen a lot of battles over years.

 

Well, I've done it...I'm returning the CP4...and I got a YC88 instead. I feel bad because of how much praise the CP4 has gotten, including on this thread, but I think this will ultimately satisfy me the most. I miss a lot about the CP88, but there were features that the CP4 had that I missed on the CP88...and to varying extents the YC brought them back and/or reworked them.

 

So now I wait for the YC to arrive in a week, in which time Yamaha will announce a revolutionary, gamechanging 2.0 update for the CP series that will make me regret ever springing for the YC.

[timwat]

Well, each of the 3 are different (thought related) beasts.

 

I'm a long time CP4 owner - just gigged it on Sunday. When the CP88 / 73 came out, I was pining for that. And when the YC came out, I was pining for that too.

 

But for what I do (which may require less on-the-fly than your uses), I sure do love how mine feels. 

 

At the end of the day, any of those units presents more than I need - whichever you end up landing on for good, play the snot out of it and make some great music. 

 

I'm an old guy who came up playing house pianos - so I'm grateful to have a great sounding, in-tune instrument I can count on and that I can actually schlep.

 

Hope the YC works out for you.

 

Tim 

[The_Star_Guy]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:35 PM, pjd said:

Athan Bilias (Yamaha) once posted the following information on the Piano World Forum (9/12/2013):

 

Spectral Component Modeling

Frankly we can understand how people are confused by the Spectral Component Modeling system because it is not one individual technology, but a system.

It's easiest to understand by breaking down the words.

Full Spectral Component Modeling (all three words) is used ONLY on the tine and reed models. Full Spectral Modeling means that those EP sounds DO NOT have velocity layers and we challenge anyone to to find them because they simply don't exist. There are continuous spectral changes across the entire range of velocities which are not based on sample switching, but windowed spectral data.

Component Modeling is used through out the CP 4 and 40 Stage series and as the words imply means that certain components of the sound are modeled. For example another part of the component modeling of the EPs is the ability to adjust the tine position. This technology is similar to the FDSP technology found in the EX5 years ago. So this is Component Modeling of the tine pickup position.

The acoustic pianos and other sounds feature component modeling where aspects of the sound are modeled. Some of these component aspects (for example Note Off or Sound Board Resonance), Roland sometimes refers to as Behavior Modeling and are available in other Yamaha product that feature Advanced Articulation. Others are more DSP oriented and unique to SCM systems, for example there are mic preamp models so you can change the character of the piano by changing which mic preamp model is applied and what the actual EQ settings for the Mic Preamp are. Again this is modeling a component of the sound, but not necessarily modeling the whole sound itself.

At this time we are not using full Spectral Component Modeling on the acoustic pianos or other sounds for technical reasons.

Finally the Virtual Circuit Modeling is pure modeling in that it is mathematical models of resistors and capacitors that are then put together in virtual circuits that emulate vintage stomp box effects. These were developed by Toshi Kunimoto ( Dr. K) who developed the world' s first true physically modeled instrument the VL1 and the Tine position algorithms in FSDP.

It's the combination of all these components that come together and make up the Spectral Component Modeling system.

"Does the CP1/5/50 handle velocity layers differently to the CP300/33?..yes."

Yes, the acoustic pianos have many, many more layers and the EPs use Spectral Component Modeling so there are no velocity splits at all, but continuously changing Spectral windows.

"Are there underlying Multi-velocity samples ?.. yes "

On the acoustic pianos, yes, on the EPs no.
 

 

Thank you for this great explanation!  I picked up a CP-40 during the pandemic for a steal because I have always liked the sound of Yamaha EP's, and this explanation validates what my ears were already telling me!   I am considering adding a CK 61 to add the CFX sounds to the package as an option to give me a full featured piano-based gigging setup.

[CHarrell]

Well, the YC88 finally arrived today. I've been playing it for a little bit now, and...

 

Well crap I was gonna post a GIF of Han Solo saying "Chewie, we're home", but I guess GIFs aren't allowed here.

[Bobadohshe]

You dig the YC88 over the CP4 and 88?

[CHarrell]

On 7/9/2023 at 7:13 AM, Bobadohshe said:

You dig the YC88 over the CP4 and 88?

 

Sorry for the late response! Been so busy these past several days. 

 

It's interesting playing the YC after now having experience with both the CP4 and 88: I can see now that in many ways it's the sequel to the CP4 that the 88 isn't (wasn't?). Its flexibility in adjusting sounds, its broader palette of sounds and effects, etc. Maybe it's because I've been spending the last few months touring like 35 keyboards, but the gripes I had with the YC's interface a couple years ago are much less pronounced now. I don't play organ enough to feel like that aspect is truly justified (I suck at getting good drawbar registrations that don't sound so samey), but the extra effects, speaker/amp sims, and overall larger feature set put this over the edge of CP88 for me.

 

This has also made me acutely aware of just how much Yamaha designed themselves into a corner with the CP88. Because they relegated everything to specific, hard-wired categories and labels, such as the effects in the EP section, it must be a hell of a challenge to update with anything beyond more voices. Like if they wanted to add another phaser, for example, where would they put it? You'd have to tie it to some menu feature somehow, like if you could go to Phaser 3, which then makes a menu item appear on the screen, where you could then toggle to another phaser. And that's a relatively simple one! What about something like VRM, which has been in hot demand by many users? You'd probably have to completely dive into a menu if you wanted everything to stay local to the board. Granted, something like that might have to be the same for the YC, but who knows, maybe they could even cannibalize it into an insert effect similar to damper resonance. How would you do that on the CP?

 

I'd still be interested in seeing if they can squeeze a great update out of the CP, but unless it's drastically life-changing, I think I'll stick with the YC88. 

[kayriss]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:12 PM, CHarrell said:

Well, the YC88 finally arrived today. I've been playing it for a little bit now, and...

 

Well crap I was gonna post a GIF of Han Solo saying "Chewie, we're home", but I guess GIFs aren't allowed here.

 

Glad you're enjoying the YC88!

 

I'm considering a used CP4 now that I'm picking up some gigs again (sold my immaculate CP4 years ago, wish I'd held onto it). I've found one that looks relatively tidy with the exception of some scuffs and scratches, but nothing serious. Hopefully the action plays OK (I suspect it's been gigged a fair bit). Asking price is around $1050 USD which I think seems about right?

 

FWIW I haven't played the CP88 or YC88 for more than a few minutes; as long as I stay away from those I should still be happy with how the CP4 feels/sounds.

[stoken6]

13 minutes ago, kayriss said:

 

Glad you're enjoying the YC88!

 

I'm considering a used CP4 now that I'm picking up some gigs again (sold my immaculate CP4 years ago, wish I'd held onto it). I've found one that looks relatively tidy with the exception of some scuffs and scratches, but nothing serious. Hopefully the action plays OK (I suspect it's been gigged a fair bit). Asking price is around $1050 USD which I think seems about right?

 

FWIW I haven't played the CP88 or YC88 for more than a few minutes; as long as I stay away from those I should still be happy with how the CP4 feels/sounds.

It's practically begging you to respond "I'll give you a grand for it?".

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

CP4 is going for as little as £500 in the UK. Having sold gear in SE Asia, they try selling a 10 year old board for waaay more than its worth, whereas the UK seem to have a get rid cheap mentality if its 'not in fashion' or current. Then again they also overvalue some old tat as vintage. 

Back on track, I had a CP4 and loved it, but had to sell it as I moved overseas. Tried a CP88 recently and just didn't engage with it. Much prefer my Korg GS. 

If you can get a good one, it's a solid, great sounding board. 

[CHarrell]

Storytime update: I've been on a carousel of keyboard-related purchases for the last two years, and I wanna get off. I think the CP and YC88 are my favorite keyboards I've ever played, but I've had to be very real with myself to recognize that those just aren't in my budget for the foreseeable future.

 

I've been flirting with lighter boards and software, but no matter how much I tell myself the better sound quality will give me expressive options, I just haven't found a combo that clicks, and if I want one, I'll probably have to dip high into the weight class...and at that point, doesn't that remove the point of convenience I was even looking for?

 

So, add all this together and what do you get? Well, I'm back on the CP4 train. At my local GC, they had a "great" condition CP4, and I got to extensively try it out. I could immediately tell the unit wasn't as great as they list: superficially it seems that way, but I was getting consistent, random velocity spikes on several different keys. But when I was playing in a "safe" range (it seems that mostly the C3 to C4 octave was affected), I had forgotten just how easy it was to express myself over the keys. I could do super-fast arpeggios and not feel it at all...I went to the FP30x right next to it and could feel it after a minute--I'd like to think that's not physical weakness, especially since the NW-GH action is supposed to be heavier than the PHA4.  Funnily enough, a pianist from New York was looking for the best substitute for their NY Steinway they could find here on the West side, and after checking out all the other keyboards, including the RD2000 and Fantom 8, she felt like the CP4 was by far the best option.  (I did let her know about all the hybrid consoles available at stores not called Guitar Center).

 

The Rhodes pianos I don't remember sounding so good over headphones, but they definitely worked through the monitors the GC employee got me hooked up to. The pianos have a charming artificiality to them: they sound sampled, but...there's a character to them, I felt like a Latin player at Montreux in the mid 00s when I was playing them. Unfortunately my ability to test the dynamics and expressiveness of the pianos over amplification--not through headphones, which I've discovered can greatly impact how I feel about a board's playability--was compromised by the somewhat-faulty keybed. My impression is the louder layers got triggered too easily, but that could just be a matter of touch sensitivity and tweaking the depth and offset parameters.

 

Would I prefer the CP88 interface? Hell yeah I would, but after trying so many digital pianos these past few months with varying degrees of wonkiness and/or inaccessibility, I think I'll take the compromise. The CP4 interface isn't super-quick, but it is relatively intuitive for a menu-based approach. Quicker than me trying to jerryrig a separate MIDI controller to on/off and tweak software effects, for sure. 

 

So now it comes down to wanting to find a CP4 in good quality, and a good price. Pickings are on the slimmer side right now, and this unit I played got me a little wary, so I'm a little nervous, but there's really not much I can do but order from somewhere online and hope for the best. The one they had at my GC was $1,300+, which seemed too high, so I'm hoping to hit the $1,000 range.

[ludo]

Maybe  this is the solution for the problem ?

[Paul Woodward]

I enjoyed watching this if just to see that Yamaha can use a great keybed when they want to (looking at you YC61). And manufacturers, please, please bring do the single cable connector from keybed to casing so anyone with common sense can maintain their gear without a degree in electronics.

I will say it again, as much as I love my Korg GS, the CP4 was my favourite (Yamaha) piano.

[ludo]

It's still my favourite also.. After I was scammed for one and loose 800 euro I found another (almost brand new) for 1000 euro. So now I'm the proud owner of the most expensive CP4 in the world...

Life goes on 🙂

[D. Gauss]

One just sold here last month for $400.  By the time i had figured out the logistic$ of trying park and then schlep it to my car by myself in the nightmare they call Times Square, it was gone.

[Stokely]

Wow, $400?

Since this thread is still on the main page, I'll piggyback with a question.

Last night we did a jam as a band--and I hate jams, but we were using it as an audition for a potential new drummer--and I was told "there's a keyboard" so I didn't bring mine.  I'd played here once before and there was an SK-2 setup, so I thought that might be there.  Nope--it was a CP33 of all things.  So my question:  how does the CP4 action compare to the CP33?  I had heard the CP33 was quite the heavy action beast, but I didn't actually find it bad at all to play for the first time.   Granted, I really prefer 73/76 note digital keyboards, but just curious.

The funny part was that for the 3 songs we'd sorta planned on doing, I was thinking how I'd make organ work for each of these, because I thought I'd be on an SK2 without any knowledge of how to find patches on the thing, so I'd just dial up an organ.  Nope, suddenly it was "how to make piano work" on those songs   I did try the rhodes and it was...not good.  I also tried the strings because for whatever reason our singer picked comfortably numb as a tune--to audition a drummer?!--and ugh I should have stuck with piano.