2023: CP4 instead of CP88?

[CHarrell]

Hello, everyone! I've lurked this forum many a time over the last several years, and always have enjoyed reading your perspectives on keyboards. As such, I wanted to get your perspective on this question. I'm reposting from a thread I made on Reddit.

 

TL;DR Question: I miss my CP88 but even used, I'm thinking it's too expensive to go back to. However, CP4 used prices are right up my alley. I'm seeing a number of people online saying they actually prefer the 4 over the 88 in its sounds and action, but I'm worried I'm not gonna like the interface. I recognize it's not gonna be as immediate as the CP88--most keyboards won't be--but is it still quick n easy enough to be a good approximation of the ease and inspiration I get from the CP88's simplicity?

 

Several months ago, I flirted with replacing my CP88 for the CK88. Ultimately, I decided to get rid of the CK because I just couldn't vibe with the GHS keybed, but I also got rid of the CP for price and wanting to find a lighter keyboard and supplement it possibly with a multi-fx pedal.

In this span of time, I've had the Numa X Piano 88 (good board but the keys were too shallow for my arthritic wrists), the PX5S (eh), and currently the RD88. You know I was playing it and uh, uh....you know, I was going through the board and uh........

 

I MISS MY CP88!!!!!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

I kept trying out the FP30X at my local GC to get a feel for the PHA4...I thought I liked it, I thought I liked the dynamic control of it, but after getting the RD88 and playing it for extended periods of time...I get why people have criticized it for feeling heavy, it's hurting my wrists; I think the way it uses escapement might be contributing to that, I didn't get this pain when I had a MP7SE. The CP88 had a heavy action but there was an evenness to the action that never caused any pain.

But more than anything, I miss that interface sooooooo much. I actively felt inspired to create all kinds of sounds: the limited selection of instruments actually felt like a benefit because it encouraged shifting and combining these elements in different ways to produce all kinds of different sounds. And it was sooooo quick n easy. Truly a live instrument.

But as I look at the price tag, I feel like I made a good choice in selling it to have extra money. As I expected, though, the used prices still are too expensive for me, but in my search, I discovered...the CP4????

 

The CP4 has been on my mind lately 'cause Hermeto Pascoal and Jovino Santos Neto were playing here in Seattle about two weeks ago, and when I showed up, surprise surprise, there was no acoustic piano for these incredible players....only a CP4. The piano sounded crisp and present, even through some of at-times VERY dense jungle of sound coming from the rest of the bands, and it sounded like it had good dynamics, too.

 

I'd always written off the CP4 'cause I thought it would be one of those old stage pianos that are like 60 pounds, but I looked it up last night, and it's even a tiny tiny bit lighter than the CP88???? Well, that's cool, but what about the interface? Here's where I'm more conflicted: is it as immediate as the CP88? Looks like a "hell no" from what I can see...but yet...you can press a button to jump to the effects, and change those up. Looks like too many parameters than I care to control--love on the CP88 that you got a knob for rate, a knob for depth, and boom, done. But maybe the CP4 is still quick enough on its feet to change the parameters I really care about very quickly, and can dig into the others if I really want that extra control over the sound? In some ways, the interface seems like a better thought-out RD88, AKA not total donkey testicles.

 

And I'm reading all these posts from people over the years--including on here!-- saying they'd never trade the CP4 for anything, including the CP88. Why? They say it sounds better, particularly the CFIII over the CFX, which made its debut in the CP4, and that the key action feels better than the CP88, too, saying that it's lighter...and my problem with the CP88's action is that in some ways it felt a little too heavy. I also like that the CP4 has more "gig-ready" sounds, such as more mono-compatible pianos and different variations. The 88 is strangely light on these, practically nonexistent. Funnily enough, the CK addressed this with their sound selection.

 

The final kicker? I could get a used CP4 for just a tiny bit more than I got my used RD88. So the wheels are turning.....

 

Dearest KC veterans, I humbly beseech your advice. How does the CP4 stack up to the CP88? Is CP88's interface such a drastic improvement over the CP4 that I would inevitably crave the 88 after trying and failing to get along with the 4?

[AnotherScott]

For something in the ballpark of CP88 simplicity/directness of operation, but lower priced, I'd say maybe look at Korg SV2 or maybe a used Nord Piano of a previous generation. While they may not have top-tier actions, I'd say those options would beat the GHS action you didn't like, while also still feeling somewhat lighter than the CP88.

[CHarrell]

7 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

For something in the ballpark of CP88 simplicity/directness of operation, but lower priced, I'd say maybe look at Korg SV2 or maybe a used Nord Piano of a previous generation. While they may not have top-tier actions, I'd say those options would beat the GHS action you didn't like, while also still feeling somewhat lighter than the CP88.

 

Thanks, Scott. I mostly really like the interface of the SV series (it has some really weird limitations though), but I really want to have a board that doesn't weigh anymore than a CP88 does. Used, the prices here in America are still very much neck-and-neck with the CP88. I haven't thought about looking at an older Nord Piano, I see Nord and I usually just think "too expensive".  

 

Is the CP4's interface really that clunky?

[SteinwayB]

I'm in the CP>>CP88 camp.  I tried the CP88 and hated the piano compared to CP4.  Then I tried a used NP3 with White Grand and never looked back.  To me, far superior sound although the action is lighter than I like (loved the CP4 action).  Of course there are many on this forum that dislike the White Grand so it is very personal taste.  You can find the NP3 fairly cheap.

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, SteinwayB said:

I'm in the CP>>CP88 camp.  I tried the CP88 and hated the piano compared to CP4.  Then I tried a used NP3 with White Grand and never looked back.  To me, far superior sound although the action is lighter than I like (loved the CP4 action).  Of course there are many on this forum that dislike the White Grand so it is very personal taste.  You can find the NP3 fairly cheap.

 

When you say you hated the piano, do you mean the piano sound, or what?

 

Also, cheapest NP3 I'm seeing right now is about $2,500 (on Reverb), where have you seen it for fairly cheap?

[ElmerJFudd]

The trick would be finding a CP4 that’s pristine due to the time that has passed  since they stopped making them.  You don’t want one that was regularly gig’d.  You want one that someone enjoyed at home and played casually for enjoyment.  

I do like the SV2, for similar cost of a CP88 it is worth a play to compare.  But I ultimately picked a very lightly used CP88.
 

Although Yamaha doesn’t bother with simulating escapement on their next tier piano action (GH or NWX), I find the keys similar in weight and speed to playing the real thing.  

 

[CHarrell]

5 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The trick would be finding a CP4 that’s pristine due to the time that has passed  since they stopped making them.  You don’t want one that was regularly gig’d.  You want one that someone enjoyed at home and played casually for enjoyment.  

I do like the SV2, for similar cost of a CP88 it is worth a play to compare.  But I ultimately picked a very lightly used CP88.
 

Although Yamaha doesn’t bother with simulating escapement on their next tier piano action (GH or NWX), I find the keys similar in weight and speed to playing the real thing.  

 

 

Good point to consider, I haven't really dealt with used gear in a long time when it comes to biggies like this. Is that just because of the condition, degradation of keys? So what made you go for the 88 instead of the 4? (assuming that was ever a crossroads for you).

 

To be honest, I don't think I care about escapement very much; maybe it's cause I came up of age playing an upright, but more than "authenticity" in form, I want "authenticity" in  playability. I know there's much said about how a singular Real Piano Feel (TM) doesn't exist, which is true of course, but when I go to most acoustics I find myself being able to express my ideas in ways most digital pianos don't feel conducive to. 

[Chummy]

Just curious, maybe try a CP73? It's lighter and more compact than the 88, with the same familiar interface and sounds. In addition its action is still better than what Korg (RH3) or Nord (Fatar TP100) offers, speaking from experience. I found the Yamaha balanced plastic action very slightly inferior to Kawai's RHIII and is very much playable even for advanced technique . If I were to come to a gig with such keyboard action I'd be very satisfied.

 

So just FYI, I'm happy with my Kawai ES920. It's the same weight as a CP88 with less sounds but it does offer the best action in a portable digital piano IMHO. Kawai piano engine is also better than Yamaha CP since it's 88 key sampled and has more modeling aspects for more realstic sound. However the CP88 has better variety sounds especially in the acoustic instrument categories (Guitars, Chro. Percussion, Strings, etc.). 

 

That being said, I understand your concerns about a board being light for carrying around and in the action too because of your wrists . In which case honestly I'd give up weighted action entirely. For solo piano, Jazz ensemble or just piano +singer 88 weighted is awesome . But If you're playing in a rock band with electric guitars etc. You don't need it!! so maybe go the semi weighted route? I know this is not what you first asked in the OP but I've been through this dillema as well and came to that conclusion. And I believe you should consider that more seriously. 

 

 

[CHarrell]

1 minute ago, Chummy said:

Just curious, maybe try a CP73? It's lighter and more compact than the 88, with the same familiar interface and sounds. In addition its action is still better than what Korg (RH3) or Nord (Fatar TP100) offers, speaking from experience. I found the Yamaha balanced plastic action very slightly inferior to Kawai's RHIII and is very much playable even for advanced technique . If I were to come to a gig with such keyboard action I'd be very satisfied.

 

 

I've seen this before, and I get the logic, but I'll be real, those missing 15 keys are just a bridge too far for me. I use those lower notes ALL the time, I just know I'd regret it. Plus, the CP73 is weirdly expensive for what I think it is.

 

2 minutes ago, Chummy said:

So just FYI, I'm happy with my Kawai ES920. It's the same weight as a CP88 with less sounds but it does offer the best action in a portable digital piano IMHO. Kawai piano engine is also better than Yamaha CP since it's 88 key sampled and has more modeling aspects for more realstic sound. However the CP88 has better variety sounds especially in the acoustic instrument categories (Guitars, Chro. Percussion, Strings, etc.). 

 

I LOVED the 920 when I tried it several weeks ago. To be honest, I'm still considering it. It'd be amazing if Kawai made an even lighter version without speakers, but if I'm back to considering 40ish lbs., might as well have this on the drawing board. There are some things I'd rather it have, such as pitch and mod, and an interface that's easier for tweaking (the app can somewhat mitigate this), but when it came to just playing a keyboard it felt soooo good. Was surprised by how good the EPs sounded, too. If I found one for a really good price used, I'd probably snag it up. I'm trying not to go over $1,500, but I want to be cheaper if possible.

 

19 minutes ago, Chummy said:

That being said, I understand your concerns about a board being light for carrying around and in the action too because of your wrists . In which case honestly I'd give up weighted action entirely. For solo piano, Jazz ensemble or just piano +singer 88 weighted is awesome . But If you're playing in a rock band with electric guitars etc. You don't need it!! so maybe go the semi weighted route? I know this is not what you first asked in the OP but I've been through this dillema as well and came to that conclusion. And I believe you should consider that more seriously. 

 

 

I know whachu mean, and I've done the semiweighted board hooked up to laptop thing before, but I didn't really enjoy it. I didn't feel anywhere near enough control and it risked screwing some of the musical numbers up. Would you have any recommendations, though? A lot of the music I perform is very keyboard-centric, so it's just not a layer of cool sounds to go under guitars etc. If anything, I'm the guitar player! 😂

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, CHarrell said:

 

Good point to consider, I haven't really dealt with used gear in a long time when it comes to biggies like this. Is that just because of the condition, degradation of keys? So what made you go for the 88 instead of the 4? (assuming that was ever a crossroads for you).

 

To be honest, I don't think I care about escapement very much; maybe it's cause I came up of age playing an upright, but more than "authenticity" in form, I want "authenticity" in  playability. I know there's much said about how a singular Real Piano Feel (TM) doesn't exist, which is true of course, but when I go to most acoustics I find myself being able to express my ideas in ways most digital pianos don't feel conducive to. 

Yes, digital piano actions do wear over time from extensive play.  If it was the previous owner’s main instrument for practice and carted around for performance for 10 years, I’d pass on it.  It’s not hard to swap out Yamaha keys, but their seat in the action wears down as well.  It really depends how rough its life has been. 
 

I sat on replacing my S90ES for a long time and the CP4 was in consideration for years due to favorable reviews from other players and its reduced carry weight. I’d snatch one up if the right one came up at the right price.  You may also look for the CP5 which preceded it. 

The CP88 is not quite as light as the CP4 but it’s a very compact build (pitch and mod up top).  And its interface is so tactile. It’s easy to fiddle with to get the sound you want without sacrificing more complex capabilities (ie. live sets).  
 

I do still keep a PX560 around for when I really can’t be arsed to drag something better out.  But if I was going to do that again I’d seriously look at Kawai ES120. I haven’t had the pleasure of trying the 520 or 920? Yet. 

[Michael Wright]

Is it safe to assume the YC 88 action is identical to that of the CP 88?

[CHarrell]

3 minutes ago, Michael Wright said:

Is it safe to assume the YC 88 action is identical to that of the CP 88?

 

It's not only safe to assume, it's guaranteed. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the YC, but I actually did have the 88. The keybed does NOT lend itself to organ playing at all, for my tastes. Really just feels like they said "Well, we gotta feed the 88 key players out there somehow" and just decided to throw the YC soul in the CP88 body.

[CHarrell]

13 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

You may also look for the CP5 which preceded it. 

 

That thing is 55 lbs, so it's out of my mind immediately. I also can't help but wonder if it'd have an interface worse than that of the 4.

 

15 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

ES120. I haven’t had the pleasure of trying the 520 or 920? Yet

 

I posted about it above, but I'd highly recommend checking out the 920! I briefly owned the 520, seeing good reviews about the RHCII action, but it just felt too springy and bouncy for me.

[ElmerJFudd]

3 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

It's not only safe to assume, it's guaranteed. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the YC, but I actually did have the 88. The keybed does NOT lend itself to organ playing at all, for my tastes. Really just feels like they said "Well, we gotta feed the 88 key players out there somehow" and just decided to throw the YC soul in the CP88 body.

For me it was the price, $3150 vs $2600.  I just don’t want to pay that much to get the organ engine.  I don’t enjoy playing organ on a weighted action either way, or vise verse.  That said, they could have done a better job with the CP organ patches, but as usual with Yamaha - good enough for the piano-centric gig.  

[CHarrell]

Just now, ElmerJFudd said:

For me it was the price, $3150 vs $2600.  I just don’t want to pay that much to get the organ engine.  I don’t enjoy playing organ on a weighted action either way, or vise verse.  That said, they could have done a better job with the CP organ patches, but as usual with Yamaha - good enough for the piano-centric gig.  

 

Yeah to be honest I think the whole YC line is overpriced, and really confuses this whole line that Yamaha is doing. Originally they tried claiming that CP was for the pianists, YC was for the organists, but with the price and continued YC updates that usurp more and more of what made the CP distinct, it's pretty clear they were just trying to placate upset CP owners, and that the YC is truly their "flagship" product in a higher tier. So then CP owners have been left feeling like they got the beta version for a cheaper price. (I'd still prefer CP88 to YC88 overall, all things considered).

[CHarrell]

Anyways, if I can ask a more pointed question: for those who have played/owned the CP4, what's your experience with the interface?

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

The main reason I just re-bought CP88 #3 was to have a 7.5 lb. reduction in weight from the 515 for gig schlepping.

 

Amen to that, it's the primary reason I haven't really thought about the 515. 

 

3 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

He finally came down to $1400 but I kept procrastinating on it, partly because of the drive and spending that much on a discontinued keyboard I was intimately familiar with.....as good as it still is, I just couldn't see myself going back there again for that much dough

 

That's surprising, the average used price I've been seeing for the CP4 has been $1200ish, and that's through more "official" channels such as GC. I can't see a decent condition 88 for less than $2,000 right now, so that's a helluva chunk of savings for me. 

4 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

But as I'm typing this, CP88, #3,  there's a photo of it sitting at the door waiting to be picked up by FedEx and going back to Sweetwater. Sadly there's something wrong, possibly a grounding issue, with the 1/4" outs. Orginally they said they were out of stock on the CP88, as are most people, until July or August. But then my Sweetwater rep just called and said they show two at their new Phoenix hub and he's going to try and get shipped to me early next week. Fingers crossed.

 

Good luck!

[Michael Wright]

1 hour ago, CHarrell said:

 

It's not only safe to assume, it's guaranteed. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the YC, but I actually did have the 88. The keybed does NOT lend itself to organ playing at all, for my tastes. Really just feels like they said "Well, we gotta feed the 88 key players out there somehow" and just decided to throw the YC soul in the CP88 body.

I bring up the YC because I just took delivery of one.  I purchased it for the purpose of reducing my rig from 3 keyboards to 2. I would be replacing a Hammond xk 1c and a  CP 4.  I am driving the organ engine from a second tier keyboard,  therefore NOT concerned if the YC 88 action lends itself to organ playing.  I had both the YC and the CP 4 side by side, and if the  88 action was identical to the CP 88,  then my observations would be relevant to the conversation,  and perhaps be of help to you, the patch difference between the CP 88 and the YC 88 notwithstanding.  

[CHarrell]

6 minutes ago, Michael Wright said:

I bring up the YC because I just took delivery of one.  I purchased it for the purpose of reducing my rig from 3 keyboards to 2. I would be replacing a Hammond xk 1c and a  CP 4.  I am driving the organ engine from a second tier keyboard therefore NOT concerned if the YC 88 action lends itself to organ playing..  I had both the YC and the CP 4 side by side, and if the  88 action was identical to the CP 88,  then my observations would be relevant to the conversation,  and perhaps be of help to you, the patch difference between the CP 88 and the Y 88 notwithstanding.  

 

Nice! That sounds like a good solution, all things considered. Thank you for the clarification, too, that makes sense. In terms of the sounds of the CP/YC88, there's honestly more similarity than not. The YC has the FM tone generator (nice touch), and the organ engine, obviously, but all the pianos, EPs, clavs, etc. are all identical across the two; on that front, the only difference is which ones are offered since there's still a few I wanna say are present in the CP and not the YC (yet, it seems at this point).

 

In other words, I'd say you're highly qualified to know the sound differences between the CP4 and the CP88 in addition to the action.

 

But again, what I have the most questions on is the interface of the CP4. I've looked up tutorials and have read the manuals, but those can only give a very limited snapshot of what it's actually like to use the instrument.

[RudyS]

I like my cp4, but not for the interface. I don’t understand how you can make a piano so complex. 

[CHarrell]

59 minutes ago, RudyS said:

I like my cp4, but not for the interface. I don’t understand how you can make a piano so complex. 

 

Oh no. 😭

[Chummy]

12 hours ago, CHarrell said:

 

That thing is 55 lbs, so it's out of my mind immediately. I also can't help but wonder if it'd have an interface worse than that of the 4.

 

 

I posted about it above, but I'd highly recommend checking out the 920! I briefly owned the 520, seeing good reviews about the RHCII action, but it just felt too springy and bouncy for me.

 I concur. Having owned 920 for almost 3 years and 520 for about 6-7 months in total (it was a temporary loan but a long one)

Comparing the action the 520 just sucked , excuse my French. If you go the Kawai route 920 it is for gigging and MP7SE for studio only.

I think based on your past comments, 920 it is... 17.5 kilos + 1 more for the power brick with the CP88 has built in makes them the same weight

and honestly, yes both are NOT lightweight by any means considering a wheeled case (I have the Kawai matching wheeled case which is decent)

The Kawai pedal is also the best imo it's a dream. The speakers are always a bonus when doing small to medium gigs even as a mere stage monitor

if there's a shady sound guy IDK why keyboards is the instrument sound guys hate the most it's always guitars taking over. At least you can hear yourself in the mix and not strain your ears.

At least in my case, because I unfortunately I don't do big stadiums with in ear monitors or state of the art sound reinforcement... 

You sound like a very discerning piano guy, like myself. You'll be happy with it because it just FEELS the best.

[D. Gauss]

no love for the Numa Piano X?

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Chummy said:

 I concur. Having owned 920 for almost 3 years and 520 for about 6-7 months in total (it was a temporary loan but a long one)

Comparing the action the 520 just sucked , excuse my French. If you go the Kawai route 920 it is for gigging and MP7SE for studio only.

I think based on your past comments, 920 it is... 17.5 kilos + 1 more for the power brick with the CP88 has built in makes them the same weight

and honestly, yes both are NOT lightweight by any means considering a wheeled case (I have the Kawai matching wheeled case which is decent)

The Kawai pedal is also the best imo it's a dream. The speakers are always a bonus when doing small to medium gigs even as a mere stage monitor

if there's a shady sound guy IDK why keyboards is the instrument sound guys hate the most it's always guitars taking over. At least you can hear yourself in the mix and not strain your ears.

At least in my case, because I unfortunately I don't do big stadiums with in ear monitors or state of the art sound reinforcement... 

You sound like a very discerning piano guy, like myself. You'll be happy with it because it just FEELS the best.

 

Thanks for this. "Discerning" is one word...sometimes I just wonder if I'm too damn picky and indecisive for a soon to be 30 year old. 😂

 

The thing that I try to balance is my love for keys and my love for creating sounds. While the CP88 didn't have a synth engine per se, the effects and part controls practically made it a synth in my hands, and I felt like I was orchestrating on the fly. But, on the other hand(channelling Tevye from Fiddler), what inspired me to sell the CP88 was I played one of my first live shows since COVID earlier this year and I couldn't escape the feeling that the keys were just a little too heavy for what I was doing, even though sonically I just about had perfect control (minus things like the piano sounding a little crummy out of my Spacestation V3--probably on the way out too). To be clear, one of my biggest influences is Bernie Worrell so I find myself bringing that kinda energy. 

 

As fortune has it, my local GC has a used MP7SE so I'm gonna go in today and give myself a refresh on the RHIII with the Kawai sample sets. 

[CHarrell]

16 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

no love for the Numa Piano X?

 

I was actually pretty impressed with it, maybe even hella impressed, but the keybed...I dunno if I use all the lingo properly, but maybe it bottomed out too hard? Too shallow? I felt the impact of the keys coming into contact with the board, and it ended up hurting my wrists which was a shame, honestly. I've had arthritic symptoms since I was 13, so I'm just really sensitive to that sort of thing. 

 

Honestly if that wasn't a concern for people, I'd HIGHLY recommend giving that one a shot. The sounds, the consistent updates (ring ring, Yamaha! You listenin???), and a good action in a really lightweight package for a good price? Studiologic is doing a much better job of Italians taking over the world than Mussolini ever dreamed of.

[zephonic]

From a KC thread way back in ‘05:

 

[ElmerJFudd]

28 minutes ago, zephonic said:

From a KC thread way back in ‘05:

 

lol - says a fellow who had access to any of the finest instruments made. typically a cfIII.  😉 

 

but, yes, it’s a great quote from a great player and many times we don’t get to choose.  but when shopping for oneself and spending one’s own money it’s best to be a little picky. 😊

[Doerfler]

3 hours ago, CHarrell said:

 

I was actually pretty impressed with it, maybe even hella impressed, but the keybed...I dunno if I use all the lingo properly, but maybe it bottomed out too hard? Too shallow? I felt the impact of the keys coming into contact with the board, and it ended up hurting my wrists which was a shame, honestly. I've had arthritic symptoms since I was 13, so I'm just really sensitive to that sort of thing. 

 

It's because the Numa keyboard has aftertouch. The Yamaha pianos do not have aftertouch. 

[ElmerJFudd]

An aftertouch strip can foul the piano-ness of a weighted action.  

[zephonic]

Be that as it may, I never had a problem with the action on Motif/Montage 8, Fantom 8, or Kronos 88. Or S90ES/XS.

 

But to me aftertouch feels counter-intuitive on a weighted action.