Yamaha rant. They are always so close.....so close.....

[Alkeys]

I would like to first say although I use many brands of keyboards, I've been consistently most loyal to Yamaha my whole life and they are my favorite company.  I still have a crusty Motif rack classic that I reluctantly carry around only because I've programmed the shit out of it.   I don't know how many times I almost pulled the trigger on a new piece of Yamaha gear but it didn't quite have what I'm looking for.  My A37 is getting long in the tooth and I need a new board.  I would like to hear from those with a similar experience.

 

For me it's this:

 

Abandoning their modeling technology.  Dude the R&D is already done and you shelved it. Why????
EX5, FS1R, Reface.  Need I say more? Where is the modeling or an updated analog synth model like the one used in the EX5 or AN1X anywhere in their current offerings? Nowhere.

Did they use the modeling they used in the Reface CP in the CP73/88 or YC61/73? Nope, samples instead.  Did they use the organ modeled in the reface YC in the CK? Nope. Samples.

You guys blow my mind.

 

Yamaha CK:

• Sample based organ.  Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Just port it over from the Reface YC. The R&D is already done.  You've already paid for the R&D many fiscal years ago. Why do you have a sample based organ on the CK when a modeled version that you own already exists?
   

Yamaha Reface series:

• Form-factor: I even grew to accept the microkeys for portability but give us some range. How bout 61 microkeys instead of 37? Would have been nice to have a 1 space rack Reface YC and a 1 space rack Reface CP.

 

Yamaha YC series as a whole YC 61 and YC73: 

• CLAVINETS: Yamaha please for god sake update your Clavinets and Harpsichords. Why are clavinets so overlooked?  I don't get it.  They are as iconic as a Rhodes or Wurli yet you spend no time upgrading them.  You have the same 2 whack or should I say "quack" clavinet sounds as you've had since the Yamaha S80. The silly T-wah clav and the superstition clav and the effects really just mask the poor quality of the samples. You haven't updated your clavinet samples since the mid 90s.  There are 4 pickups on a clavinet and various combinations and resonances. The real thing sounds marvelous and fun. To leave any of them out and rely on 30 year old samples seems like an oversight on a keyboard focused on keyboard sounds.   If you update your clav samples, I will purchase a YC.  
• Waterfall keys on Yamaha YC73:  probably would have bought it but it didn't have waterfall keys. That was a dealbreaker for me.
• Soundsets: For the YC, let's focus on mechanical keyboard instrument sounds.  I don't need horns, strings and choirs (unless it's mellotron) in my YC. 

  Yamaha if you're limited on memory space for the YC61, get rid of all the useless filler sounds. The soundset for the YC61/73 needs to be this:

  Pianos, Electric pianos (Rhodes, Wurli, CP80, DX7), Clavinet (all 4 pickups and combinations), Harpsichord, Clavichord, Pianet, RMI, Mellotron sounds, the organs B3, Vox, Farfisa, Acetone, Glockenspiel, Orchestra Celeste (basically all sounds that come from a keyboard instrument)

• No ability to load DX7 patches:  Seems like an oversight since it has an FM engine.

• No Microtuning:  Wasn't the DX7II famous for it's microtuning and alternate tunings? Carry this feature over in the YC so I can get freaky with scales from around the world.

• Pitch bend range.  My Motif rack has a pitch bend range of something ridiculous like +/- 1-127.  The YC is +/- 24. C'mon that seems a bit tame.  Let me be able to divebomb with a YC like I can on my ancient Motif rack.

 

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

This isn’t a unique phenomenon.  MI designers will forever work within their budgets and guidelines to give us something just short of the last instrument you’ll ever need or want. That’s what keeps the whole MI business sputtering along each product cycle.  
 

Also, these instruments serve a lot of music makers and it’s impossible to please everyone.  For example, you don’t need horns and strings.  But were they to ditch them it would alienate other players’ needs. 🤷‍♂️ 
 

 

[pjd]

43 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Also, these instruments serve a lot of music makers and it’s impossible to please everyone.  For example, you don’t need horns and strings.  But we’re they to ditch them it would alienate other players’ needs. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

Hello Alkeys --

 

A lot of us feel your pain including those of us who are favorably disposed toward Yamaha.

 

As to the organ in Reface YC, it is sampled. It is not modeled. Reface YC itself is a lot of recycled technology from both Motif and the arranger product lines. Yamaha arrangers have had a sample-based drawbar mode for literally decades. The rotary algorithm is probably recycled, too.

 

I've got to agree with ElmerJ. Dropping the non-organ, non-key voices from YC61/73 would make it a non-starter for me and other church/worship players. We actually need those extra voices to gig. 

 

However, even on that point, I agree about "close, but no cigar." Yamaha left pipe organ (!) out of YC61/73 and a number of essential orchestral instruments. These voices don't take up that much flash waveform ROM. (The new CK is a better "all-rounder" in that regard.) So, what does Yamaha do? They add a bunch of useless-to-me FM EDM patches in the latest update. Cheesh.

 

Courage -- pj

 

P.S. I refuse to buy keyboards for what they might become. I buy them for what they are today.

[ElmerJFudd]

At least there’s been a concession or trend in the industry to include a class compliant audio interface on the newer boards. If we’re missing something specific sound wise you can get that sound off a general use computing device - tablet, phone, laptop, etc. and mix it in along with.  

[Alkeys]

Elmer = appreciate you man

PJD = You're right. Pipe organ would be nice.   Sorry about the Reface YC. I thought it was modeled. My bad.  I understand needing the right sounds in worship. 
On that note I wish the good lord would anoint yamaha with some new clavinet sounds. I'd be high fiving jebus and thanking sweet baby jebus all day long and

with microtunings, I can send the good word around the globe transcending space and time.   Amen!

 

Maybe when Yamaha does a OS 1.4 update I will get me some new Clavs and then I'll finally be able to pull the trigger on a YC61, although a YC73v2 with waterfall keys and new clav would be an answer to my prayers!

[jazzpiano88]

It's hard to keep track of the technologies used for sound generation in each product.  I think the same goes for Roland. 

It's even harder to make accurate judgements on which technology is better because the technology changes so fast.

 

For the Sampled vs Modeled, I'm guessing (with no insider knowledge) that as memory and processing power have become available and cheaper, limitations of Sampling have largely gone away.   You can effectively reproduce an instrument's sound by brute force sampling better than a model can achieve.   And really there is no working definition of a "model" because it can represent any portion of the sound generation chain, without knowing which, is meaningless.

 

My feeling is that the best reproduction is achieved by a combination of the two.   Sampled plus modeling of secondary properties that may exceed the combinations required for sampling capture. 

[Charleston]

5 hours ago, Alkeys said:

Form-factor: I even grew to accept the microkeys for portability but give us some range. How bout 61 microkeys instead of 37? Would have been nice to have a 1 space rack Reface YC and a 1 space rack Reface CP.

I used to love my Korg MicroStation. Reface with 61 mini keys would be really cool!

[CEB]

Gear is overrated.

[pjd]

51 minutes ago, Alkeys said:

Elmer = appreciate you man

PJD = You're right. Pipe organ would be nice.   Sorry about the Reface YC. I thought it was modeled. My bad.  I understand needing the right sounds in worship. 
On that note I wish the good lord would anoint yamaha with some new clavinet sounds. I'd be high fiving jebus and thanking sweet baby jebus all day long and

with microtunings, I can send the good word around the globe transcending space and time.   Amen!

 

Maybe when Yamaha does a OS 1.4 update I will get me some new Clavs and then I'll finally be able to pull the trigger on a YC61, although a YC73v2 with waterfall keys and new clav would be an answer to my prayers!

 

Man, I so totally agree with you. I'm waiting on YC61 mk2, also.

 

No prob about Reface YC technology. Shows I have no actual life. 😀

 

I'm going to try to get our pianist to buy a CK. He keeps borrowing my CT-S1000V, so maybe I can borrow his CK. 😁 

 

Peace to all this season -- pj

[pjd]

39 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

It's hard to keep track of the technologies used for sound generation in each product.  I think the same goes for Roland. 

It's even harder to make accurate judgements on which technology is better because the technology changes so fast.

 

For the Sampled vs Modeled, I'm guessing (with no insider knowledge) that as memory and processing power have become available and cheaper, limitations of Sampling have largely gone away.   You can effectively reproduce an instrument's sound by brute force sampling better than a model can achieve.   And really there is no working definition of a "model" because it can represent any portion of the sound generation chain, without knowing which, is meaningless.

 

My feeling is that the best reproduction is achieved by a combination of the two.   Sampled plus modeling of secondary properties that may exceed the combinations required for sampling capture. 

 

True that!

 

One (potential) problem with sampled drawbars is unwanted (unrealistic) audible phase differences. AnotherScott and I think Yamaha have made a breakthrough in that regard with YC61/73.

 

No matter what, I've wrung a lot of value out of Reface YC, using it at choral rehearsals. Mini-keys, meh. For me, the main problem is the short 37-key keybed. I have to mentally wrap around either the bass line or the melody in real-time. I detest 37-key anything anymore.

 

All the best -- pj

 

[ElmerJFudd]

As we know, Yamaha has used modeling for various sounds and fx over the years.  Generally speaking, they appear to have committed to its use where it has achieved results for them - in realism and sales.  If the current state of the tech doesn’t achieve the realism they’re after or we haven’t opened our wallets to adopt it, they aren’t in a rush to go down that road again.  
 

Are the best acoustic piano sounds modeled?  I suspect Yamaha believes they are not.  And I tend to agree.  The best piano sounds I’m hearing of late are achieved by many samples, long samples, large libraries enhanced by modeling for string and pedal resonance.  Pianoteq sounds very good and continues to improve.  Does it sound more realistic than a highly detailed sample library?  I’m not sure that it does, to my ears.  Does Roland’s VPiano tech sound better than Roland’s sampled or hybrid pianos?  I’m not sure, I keep choosing Yamahas for piano - 😂.  
 

However, in the case of amp modeling, analogue fx modeling, clearly Yamaha believes in modeling for those uses.  For synthesis, it would appear that Yamaha felt their investment in instruments like the VL1 and VP1 were not successful ventures.  We didn’t buy them (they were expensive) and the tech didn’t trickle down to affordable models.  They did better with their many FM synth variants.  That said, there are rumors of an AN1X engine that have been floating around for about the last year.  Today’s DSP processors are more powerful and less expensive and Roland has successfully launched their Zenology products which achieve very good realism without sacrificing polyphony.  So maybe it’s time again for Yamaha to revisit an analogue modeling synthesizer.  

 

[LarsHarner2]

I really like my CK-61 so far: 1) Built in speakers 2) 12 poinds 3) Can use batteries 4) Drawbars and lots of dials

 

 

1) I don't care if it is based on YC or sample vs model based- 

2) A lot of keyboards are derivative of each other

3) Played a gig last night on the CK-61 and got phone numbers from 3 soccer moms. (One who had a really nice car). I don't think they cared if it was a sampled organ.

4) Life is too short to complain- so get a Roland or Korg then 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, LarsHarner2 said:

I really like my CK-61 so far: 1) Built in speakers 2) 12 poinds 3) Can use batteries 4) Drawbars and lots of dials

 

 

1) I don't care if it is based on YC or sample vs model based- 

2) A lot of keyboards are derivative of each other

3) Played a gig last night on the CK-61 and got phone numbers from 3 soccer moms. (One who had a really nice car). I don't think they cared if it was a sampled organ.

4) Life is too short to complain- so get a Roland or Korg then 

Don’t short change yourself, Lars.  It’s not the CK or your patch tweaks they’re after.  The moms like you for your stage presence, physique, drop dead good looks and winning personality. 😉

- a word of caution on moms.  there’s usually a dad not too far off.  you never never know how even the most mild mannered fellow is going to react in tense situations. 

[David Emm]

Most pipe organ presets are fine if you're backing an old Vincent Price horror movie or someone's funeral, but if you want one that will scatter the convent like a flock of pigeons, you'll have to build it yourself. There are rare exceptions, like the one in the first rank of D-50 sounds, but if you want a Full Swell sound that peels paint, plan on rolling your own. Yamaha's always sound flabby to me.

[Bobadohshe]

19 minutes ago, David Emm said:

Most pipe organ presets are fine if you're backing an old Vincent Price horror movie or someone's funeral, but if you want one that will scatter the convent like a flock of pigeons, you'll have to build it yourself. There are rare exceptions, like the one in the first rank of D-50 sounds, but if you want a Full Swell sound that peels paint, plan on rolling your own. Yamaha's always sound flabby to me.

I think the one they have on the first page of the Montage with the Super Knob morphing between mellow flutes and a full stop fortissimo is pretty damn good.

[jazzpiano88]

22 minutes ago, David Emm said:

Most pipe organ presets are fine if you're backing an old Vincent Price horror movie or someone's funeral, but if you want one that will scatter the convent like a flock of pigeons, you'll have to build it yourself. There are rare exceptions, like the one in the first rank of D-50 sounds, but if you want a Full Swell sound that peels paint, plan on rolling your own. Yamaha's always sound flabby to me.

 

I don't know.    I used to pull up the CP300 pipe organ Full Tutti at church and perform Holy Holy Holy and Joyful Thee Adore Thee ---- and it seemed to pull paint and cause significant rapture.   Maybe it was the Klipsch reinforcement.

[Alkeys]

Thanks you guys I appreciate all your responses. Everyone brings up good points- just wanted to say that it’s why I appreciate this forum. I guess I get so particular with what I am looking at because 

a) I rarely upgrade my gear and haven’t in a long time and 

b) I am obsessed with keeping my rig small and want / appreciate small rigs that can do it all.

 

My rigs are always limited to 2 boards. And since I grew up on Rhodes, I have a tendency to like 73 or 76 keys and 88 seems unnecessary because I never use the top couple or bottom couple keys anyway but 61keys seems weird because I like the low notes to be an A or a E and not a C. 

My dream rig to cover it all for me would be a Nord Lead A1 as a top board and a YC73 with waterfall keys with updated clavinets as my bottom board. The 73/76 keys make me feel more confident on Rhodes playing. Keyboard feel and weight are more important than # of keys overall and I have come to love the feeling of waterfall keys. So getting a YC61 would be a compromise.

[Alkeys]

David Emm- I appreciate your perspective of all keyboard players as I have something to learn from everyone. Even though I love Yamaha I’m open to suggestions. What’s your live rig or what would you recommend for a good 2 board rig?

[Analogaddict]

I quite like the YC series, I’ve got both a 61 and a 73. They are indeed very close to being great. 

- the Clavs are a disappointment. They need to be updated. My Nord Electro 1 sounds better. 

 

- the DX engine should be “opened” to loading DX sysex. 
 

- give us a part of the unused RAM for loading user samples, Nord style. I usually need to add one-shot samples and effects at gigs, and need to bring another synth basically just for this. 
 

- advanced user mode where we can split the internal parts and MOST IMPORTANTLY assign low/high key range. The external zones do this and it’s a great feature. I want to be able to set the internal sounds to any key range and any transpose. 
 

- more banks..! Instead of 20, give us 100 banks of 8 sounds. Or 200..! 

[Paul Woodward]

Ben from Yamaha posted in Ideascale that they (Yamaha) had recently fully sampled a clavinet for release in the future, but they were not specific about which product…

[Paul Woodward]

6 hours ago, Alkeys said:

David Emm- I appreciate your perspective of all keyboard players as I have something to learn from everyone. Even though I love Yamaha I’m open to suggestions. What’s your live rig or what would you recommend for a good 2 board rig?

Without intruding on David’s potential response, I have a Korg Grandstage 73 and Yamaha YC61. This gives me a great weighted bottom board with fantastic acoustic and electric pianos, plus lots of additional sounds. The strings for example are huge (one vision intro by Queen sorted), some usable organs, pads, leads etc. It could gig on its own. 
Yamaha on top for the waterfall keybed, great organs, drawbars etc. Route the GS audio through the YC so I am down to just two audio outs. Easily expandable with a cheap iPad or iPhone with audio and midi in one cable. The ‘Apple’ device can effectively add any sounds you want, provide backing tracks, sheet music read, set lists and other stuff you might want for gigs.

p.s I also have a Roland VR09 which could go out with the YC (instead of the GS) for a very lightweight rig (stands only weigh 3kg). Sounds cut through really well on that and, with Korg module in there as well, I have the big three brands in play.

 

[Paul Woodward]

Speaking of the VR, it’s a shame the YC drawbars can’t double up as editors for the synth section as they do on the Roland. Would add a little extra fun to tweaking sounds live, but I understand it’s not primarily a synth. Still, Roland VR is a stage combo and has an editable synth engine and it’s around a decade old. Also has a high trigger point, but let’s not get into that again…

[ABECK]

18 hours ago, Alkeys said:

 

 

Abandoning their modeling technology.  Dude the R&D is already done and you shelved it. Why????
EX5, FS1R, Reface.  Need I say more? Where is the modeling or an updated analog synth model like the one used in the EX5 or AN1X anywhere in their current offerings? Nowhere.

 

The FS1R was an interesting box.  I had one when they first came out and got some mileage out of it.  I always thought the formant idea would take off more.  Would have been interesting to see someone run with that a bit more. 

[Al Quinn]

I'm very happy with the last Yamaha keyboard I bought (i.e., YC73). It has an action that I can play piano and organ comfortably on. That's quite an accomplishment. I was starting to give up hope that such a keyboard would ever be available. Of course, not everyone will have the same positive experience. Playing piano and organ on the same action is by definition an endeavor of compromise. Also to my amazement, they simplified the user interface and I actually found myself tweaking sounds while on a gig. For me, the cryptic interfaces I've struggled with on Yamaha products (beginning with the DX7 many moons ago) was my biggest complaint. If not for lack of high trigger for organ, which is a difficult to understand glaring deficiency, I'm pleased and impressed by this keyboard. 

[Stokely]

I've addressed some of this with my Modx by:  loading Purgatory creek, which has great clavs, rhodes and wurli.  And using the built-in audio interface to easily have an ipad play b3 organ (or synths if I cared to).

I reckon no perfect keyboard from any manufacturer exists or has ever existed.   It is very frustrating when you KNOW they have the tech to do something--because another model does it!--yet they won't fold that into the model you want.   The closest thing to covering all bases well--for me, I realize they aren't everyone's cup of tea--is the Nord Stage but then the price is the problem!   And that still has compromises, but as I say it's pretty close to exactly what I need, which is why I'm pursuing a used one currently   

[allan_evett]

16 hours ago, Alkeys said:

On that note I wish the good lord would anoint yamaha with some new clavinet sounds. I'd be high fiving jebus and thanking sweet baby jebus all day long...

 

No kidding, right? My Stage 3's clavs are slightly stronger, but not by much; similar with Korg's clavinet tones and those from Kurzweil. Would be great to see most of the manufacturer's step things up here.  The clavs in the Hammond SK1 still smoke all the other hardware-based clavs. The ones in my Yamaha and Roland gear just pass for generic gigging sounds.

 

14 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Don’t short change yourself, Lars.  It’s not the CK or your patch tweaks they’re after.  The moms like you for your stage presence, physique, drop dead good looks and winning personality. 😉

- a word of caution on moms.  there’s usually a dad not too far off.  you never never know how even the most mild mannered fellow is going to react in tense situations. 

True. I once heard it said, "A wise monkey doesn't monkey with another monkey's monkey".

[Alkeys]

Allan I didn't know the SK1 had good clavs. I had no idea. Good info. That means that the SK Pro and certainly the new XK-4 probably is a good allrounder too.  I have never tried the Hammond/Suzuki offerings but always been curious about how they measure up to Yamaha and Clavia because I've never seen them in the flesh-much like many of Kurzweil offerings I just don't see them out there to try where I live.  

 

Maybe a Hammond/Suzuki XK-4 with a YC-61 on top or a YC73 with a SK Pro on top?  I love playing mono synth leads on waterfall keys- it feels so smooth!

 

Paul thank you for the idea of the Grandstage. I have to try that one out.  The Crumar mojo looked really cool to me to but didn't buy it because it didn't have pitch/mod joystick or wheels.  You know how some guitarists can't play on a hardtail and always have to have a guitar with a whammy bar? I guess I'm a bit like that on keys. If there's no pitch and mod capabilities the instrument doesn't speak to me because I'll have less fun flying around on it.

 

I have to say it seems like Hammond Suzuki is really killing it these days and stepping up their game.  I might have to go Hammond Suzuki/ Yamaha rig.

[BenWaB3]

1 hour ago, allan_evett said:

 The clavs in the Hammond SK1 still smoke all the other hardware-based clavs. 

46 minutes ago, Alkeys said:

Allan I didn't know the SK1 had good clavs. I had no idea. Good info. That means that the SK Pro and certainly the new XK-4 probably is a good allrounder too.  

 

The SK1 - yes. The SK Pro - no. I've ranted about this a few times on this forum. The SK Pro has the 4 different pickup settings but no "dig", especially on the low notes. The SK1 clav was much stronger all around and, IIRC, a lot of dig. Of course, the SK Pro is a better allrounder than the SK1. The Hammond version of your Yamaha themed rant, so close.....so close.....

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Alkeys said:

Allan I didn't know the SK1 had good clavs. I had no idea. Good info. That means that the SK Pro and certainly the new XK-4 probably is a good allrounder too.

 

3 hours ago, BenWaB3 said:

The SK1 - yes. The SK Pro - no. I've ranted about this a few times on this forum. The SK Pro has the 4 different pickup settings but no "dig", especially on the low notes. The SK1 clav was much stronger all around and, IIRC, a lot of dig. Of course, the SK Pro is a better allrounder than the SK1.

And of course the XK4 isn't an all-rounder at all. It's a pure organ - no clav. ("No clavis at all, XK...")

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Outkaster]

Yamaha has never let me down really.  I will still always be a fan and have one of their boards in my rig.