iPad as a serious musical instrument

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I was wrong, apps are indeed not backed up with a local backup as I thought (they may have been in the past though - I remember seeing files for each app I had in some backup files, this was a while ago though).

Yeah, Apple stopped supporting that after iOS 9. 😞

 

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

You can't restore via Apple's method. According to a little googling I've done however, there are 3rd-party apps that will let you load unsigned ipsw files so, yes it can be done.

I'm not sure. It was a while ago, but I was trying to get an iPad restored to the version it had been running, and after a lot of googling, it turned out to be impossible. Google links can be deceiving. Sometimes "How to do X" links end up telling you that you can't do it, or can do it in only very limited circumstances, or they want you to buy/download a tool which may be sketchy...

 

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Again, I may be wrong on apps always being available, but 3rd party apps do seem to exist that lets one save and restore apps that are already in the i-device. Here's one – not vetted by me! –  just a page that turned up in a quick google search: https://www.copytrans.net/support/how-to-backup-iphone-apps-without-itunes/

Oh yes, I had forgotten there are some more recent tools for backing up apps. On the Mac, iMazing is a legit tool that does all kinds of stuff. I haven't tried it, but it says it can backup and restore apps. An important caveat: it backs them up from the app store, not from your device. So if you have something on your device that is no longer available on the app store, it's too late to try to back it up.

 

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

It seems that with every major OS version update I loose a few favorite apps. They start out sitting on the iPad, but when I try to load them I get the "developer needs to update this program to work on the latest OS" and the program is blocked from loading.

 

Point taken. I was borrowing an old iPad Air 2 that was given to my wife until this past Dec when I got my 9G. I had the same music apps on both and they always worked with the exception of a bug in Midiflow that I found a work-around for (and seems to not appear on my new 9G). 

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen the "developer needs to update this program to work on the latest OS" message - certainly not with any of the music sw I use. In that regard I guess I've picked apps that have continued to be supported through iOS & iPadOS updates. Nevertheless, I now know to do my research before updating my iPad to make sure the apps I use will continue working. Thanks!

 

[Ibarch]

This is my biggest frustration as an app developer. I could easily build and support apps for older versions of iOS/iPadOS but Apple blocks me from uploading them to the app store. This is deliberate policy. Most older apps would work fine but Apple says no. Android used to be different but Google is working hard on becoming equally as customer hostile as Apple. 

 

Whilst I see all that iPads bring (and even ancient iPhones for some ingenious folk here), I can't help but also see all that has been artificially prohibited or given then taken away in the name of profit. 

 

 

[Baggypants]

I used iMazing to grab my version of Propellorheads Thor, which is no longer on the appstore for some reason, and fudge it onto my new iPad pro. It seems to have access to a cache of apps somehow because I didn't have to copy it across.

[Al Quinn]

I've been using iPad and iPhones for general use for years and never had a security issue or major technical problem. My 89-year old mom has been using her iPad for years with no issues. She's from a different time and doesn't have computer skills or even computer intuition (which my grandkids seem to have been born with). Her iPad just works. If it didn't she'd call me to fix it. These i devices are very impressive!

 

I did a gig with just my iPad Pro and a midi keyboard. It went well. The biggest compromise I experienced was the AP. Once I find a better one I think I'll be at peace with my iPad rig. But, since getting a YC73 I don't have much need for an iPad rig so my motivation has lessened. 

[AnotherScott]

6 minutes ago, Baggypants said:

I used iMazing to grab my version of Propellorheads Thor, which is no longer on the appstore for some reason, and fudge it onto my new iPad pro. It seems to have access to a cache of apps somehow because I didn't have to copy it across.

 

iMazing creates its own backup of apps (the .ipa files) on your computer, and as long as Thor was available in the app store when you did a backup, a copy of it resides in your iMazing-generated set of backup apps, and it should be able to be restored from that. But I believe there is also a gray area, of apps that don't appear to be in the app store (i.e. if you don't already have them, you can't see or get them), but Apple is still maintaining a "hidden" copy, and in fact Apple will let you (and/or iMazing) access the app for download as long as you already have a valid license for it. So it's possible that Thor was still up in Apple's cloud, even though it didn't come up in an app store search. OTOH, there is definitely stuff that is simply just totally gone.

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, Ibarch said:

This is my biggest frustration as an app developer. I could easily build and support apps for older versions of iOS/iPadOS but Apple blocks me from uploading them to the app store. This is deliberate policy. Most older apps would work fine but Apple says no.

 

I can understand your frustration at Apple's heavy-handed approach. I was curious so scrolled around in the app store to see minimum iOS/iPadOS requirements for some random app selections. I found one app that said iOS 11 (CapCut, a video editor), one was 12.4, a few listed 14 and some like SketchUp and Photoshop needed 15. It seems these minimum requirements are all over the place - I wonder what criteria Apple uses to decide which apps to let in? In the case of CapCut, according to Wikipedia iOS 11 is over 5 years old and supports devices going back to the iPhone 5S, which is over 9 years old now - yet there it is in the App Store. CapCut works in all iOS versions from 11 onward; is it that the apps you build for older versions won't run on newer ones? If they do then I sure can't understand Apple's reasoning.

[Ibarch]

Developers can set their own minimum version of iOS. This ensues that if you build an app which needs something Apple added in say iOS 15, you don't get people with iOS14 or below buying it and then complaining it doesn't work. 

 

Apple sets an absolute minimum supported version. This is currently iOS 11.

 

This is why older devices lose the ability to install new apps. Apple decide to end support for a device. After this, the device cannot be upgraded to a later version of iOS. For example, the iPhone 6 is stuck on iOS 12.5.4 maximum. Apple prevent it running iOS 13 onwards. In a couple of years Apple will decide that the App store will only support iOS 13 onwards. When that happens the iPhone 6 is cast adrift. The apps already installed will keep working but if you need to restore backups, redownload apps or if your iPhone 6 dies and you want to move your account to another iPhone 6, you can't install any of your apps. 

 

The iPhone 6 was released in 2015. I don't recall Apple telling purchasers the app store would only be available for 10 years but that is effectively what will happen. I imagine the hardware may work for 20 years+ but 99. 9% of devices will end up scrapped long before this due to forced obsolescence by the manufacturer. 

 

[AnotherScott]

30 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

For example, the iPhone 6 is stuck on iOS 12.5.4 maximum. Apple prevent it running iOS 13 onwards. In a couple of years Apple will decide that the App store will only support iOS 13 onwards. When that happens the iPhone 6 is cast adrift. The apps already installed will keep working but if you need to restore backups, redownload apps or if your iPhone 6 dies and you want to move your account to another iPhone 6, you can't install any of your apps. 

This is the kind of thing that wasn't an issue prior to iOS 10. If you were on iOS9, if you wanted to restore backup or move your account and apps to another iPhone also running iOS 9, it would work, because your backups were all stored locally, and you weren't dependent on Apple to continue to make your apps available to you. So I guess iMazing now allows you to essentially do the same thing, with the one additional caveat that you have to have done your backup while all the apps were still available in the app store. I think my takeaway here is that I should probably make sure I have complete iMazing backups (with apps) from all my devices asap!

 

30 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

The iPhone 6 was released in 2015. I don't recall Apple telling purchasers the app store would only be available for 10 years but that is effectively what will happen.

Yeah, and again, that's kind of an issue unique to iOS. If you got a PC or Mac 10 years ago, and never updated it, maybe some new stuff wouldn't run on it, maybe some old stuff would stop running on it if you decided to update its OS... but you're never stuck. You can always restore it to its earlier state (in both OS and apps), as long as you've got backups. (At least on a Mac, you can easily even go back and forth by setting up different partitions on your drive--or different drives--that allow you to boot into different versions of the operating system at will.) If your device physically fails or gets stolen, you can always buy a used one, and get all your old stuff back. (Within the possible complication of software that must be uninstalled from one device before it can be installed on another.) This inability of an iOS device to be restored to an earlier state (an earlier OS) is irritating. Though it looks like, with iMazing, there's at least a way around Apple's unwillingness to assure you access to apps you've already bought even if they're not on the app store.

 

 

[bfields]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:36 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

I go online with it but just for youtube or web browsing on familiar web pages, etc. Is this dangerous? I don't get the sense that it is. If iPads were being hacked by users doing the kinds of things I do, I think I'd have heard about it.

In theory, it's possible--browsers are hugely complicated, and written by humans, and maliciously crafted web pages can sometimes exploit programming errors to do things they shouldn't be able to.  For example: https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2022-42856.  And a web page you normally trust can get compromised.

 

In practice, you're right, I don't hear about an epidemic of compromised old ipads, so the practical risk is probably low.

[Jose EB5AGV]

On 4/8/2023 at 4:55 PM, Ibarch said:

I imagine the hardware may work for 20 years+ but 99. 9% of devices will end up scrapped long before this due to forced obsolescence by the manufacturer. 

 

And that is just atrocious 👿

 

We, as customers, should reject those policies by not buying those products.

I know this is just a quimera, but should be that way. Both our wallets and our planet ♻️ would be lots happier!

 

Jose (who hates programmed obsolescence and fights it daily with his repair work)

[AnotherScott]

Apple was the "pioneer" in offering MP3 players, smartphones, and laptops without user-replaceable batteries. If it was anyone other than Apple, that concept would have died the death it deserved.

[ElmerJFudd]

What are the best options for a USB-C iPad Pro… an interface or dock that provides…

 

1/4” stereo audio outs 

USB hub for class compliant USB midi keyboard

Charging power for the iPad 

 

less important features… 

a pair of combo jack inputs

5 pin MIDI in/out

1/4” stereo headphone amp 

 

- I think I’ve found some that look promising…. 
 

MAudio Audio Air Hub

https://m-audio.com/air-hub

 

USB-C to iPad

 has its own power adapter (possibly has enough juice on the line to feed the iPad) 

3 USB ports for midi controllers 

Big volume knob

Pair of 1/4” stereo outs

 1/4” TRS headphone amp

Arturia Audio Fuse also looks promising. But it’s expensive! 
https://www.arturia.com/products/audio/audiofuse/overview

 

 

 

 

[Nievski]

7 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Arturia Audio Fuse also looks promising. But it’s expensive! 
https://www.arturia.com/products/audio/audiofuse/overview

Arturia also makes the budget friendly MiniFuse Audio Interfaces; all have a built-in USB hub and MIDI DINs.
 

The  MiniFuse 1 goes for around US$100; it is bus-powered, and I’m not sure if that will be an issue; but I’ve seen online that it can be powered directly by a USB-C iPad.

 

The MiniFuse 4 is around US$220 and comes with a 2-port hub, external power supply, on/off switch and dual headphone jacks. For the money, it checks a lot of boxes. ** My only question is - will it charge an iPad? **

 

https://www.arturia.com/products#audio

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, Nievski said:

Arturia also makes the budget friendly MiniFuse Audio Interfaces; all have a built-in USB hub and MIDI DINs.
 

The  MiniFuse 1 goes for around US$100; it is bus-powered, and I’m not sure if that will be an issue; but I’ve seen online that it can be powered directly by a USB-C iPad.

 

The MiniFuse 4 is around US$220 and comes with a 2-port hub, external power supply, on/off switch and dual headphone jacks. For the money, it checks a lot of boxes. ** My only question is - will it charge an iPad? **

 

https://www.arturia.com/products#audio

I will ask Arturia! 

[D. Gauss]

12 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

What are the best options for a USB-C iPad Pro… an interface or dock that provides…

 

1/4” stereo audio outs 

USB hub for class compliant USB midi keyboard

Charging power for the iPad 

 

i'm more concerned about smallest footprint possible for live, so this may not be your thing....however, this is what i've been using live with an ipad mini 6 (again small footprint). obviously it's 1/8" out but a 1/8" to stereo 1/4" cable is easy peasy. (use a right angle one to help with the sore thumb factor).  only one USB port, but if i need more, i either use a simple splitter and or use the bluetooth midi from the casio s1000v.  Camelot Pro takes care of all the midi stuff. B-3X, Ravenscroft, VB3m, Korg Module for apps.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09BTKPGVW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

make sure, no matter what, with any of these hubs , that it allows USB C PD power in, AND that you use a 60 or 100 watt usb c GAN charger (NOT the charger that comes with your ipad). Most of these hubs suck up a fair amount of watts on their own and your ipad will NEVER charge with the apple adapter while using the hub.  these seem to be 25 bucks now. when i bought, they were on sale for like $15, so i bought 2 to have a spare.

[ElmerJFudd]

23 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

i'm more concerned about smallest footprint possible for live, so this may not be your thing....however, this is what i've been using live with an ipad mini 6 (again small footprint). obviously it's 1/8" out but a 1/8" to stereo 1/4" cable is easy peasy. (use a right angle one to help with the sore thumb factor).  only one USB port, but if i need more, i either use a simple splitter and or use the bluetooth midi from the casio s1000v.  Camelot Pro takes care of all the midi stuff. B-3X, Ravenscroft, VB3m, Korg Module for apps.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09BTKPGVW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

make sure, no matter what, with any of these hubs , that it allows USB C PD power in, AND that you use a 60 or 100 watt usb c GAN charger (NOT the charger that comes with your ipad). Most of these hubs suck up a fair amount of watts on their own and your ipad will NEVER charge with the apple adapter while using the hub.  these seem to be 25 bucks now. when i bought, they were on sale for like $15, so i bought 2 to have a spare.

Also a good suggestion, and useful for additional tasks other than music, hence more affordable!   I would like to ditch 3.5mm audio though for regular instrument cable. But this opens up possibility to use any audio interface on the hub. 

[AnotherScott]

The only issue I have with that kind of hub is that they may not work for you if you want to keep a protective case on the iPad, unless maybe you modify the case. But the alternative is something that dangles, which can be irritating, especially when you have multiple things coming out of it. I wish at least a "Pro" iPad had better connectivity, i.e. a headphone jack, and a charging port that was separate from its USB connection. Too much to ask, I guess. But as a result, these "elegant, minimalistic" iPad designs can easily become very inelegant octopus devices.

[D. Gauss]

18 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The only issue I have with that kind of hub is that they may not work for you if you want to keep a protective case on the iPad, unless maybe you modify the case. 

simple.  i use the ipad and hub as pictured in one setup, but for other situations where things are more hectic, vulnerable, i bought a short,  right angle USB C extension cable (again right angle for the "sore thumb" factor. 1 single cable comes out of ipad. little tiny hub is taped (or sometimes rubber banded) to the backside of one of the keyboards where all the jacks are. the cable goes between them.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09SZBB3YY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Following up on the MAudio Air Hub 

 

“This one device combines a pro-grade monitoring station with an independent headphone amp and a USB hub for charging and interfacing devices.”

 

I need to investigate if it also powers the USB-C port. 
 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

simple.  i use the ipad and hub as pictured in one setup, but for other situations where things are more hectic, vulnerable, i bought a short,  right angle USB C extension cable

 

I was thinking just get one of the dangling things to begin with, instead of turning a non-dangling one into a dangling one... but I see the advantage of your approach because you can use it either way, depending on the circumstance. But I don't know about the right angle addition, I suspect that that could still prevent its use with many iPad cases.

[D. Gauss]

2 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I was thinking just get one of the dangling things to begin with, instead of turning a non-dangling one into a dangling one... 

my issue with the dangling ones (i also have one of those as well..Anker brand), is the dumb ass cord is perm attached and only like 4 or 6 inches long.  it is also stiff/thick and unless you affix the hub to something, i doesn't like to stay put if you bend the cord in any direction other than straight. i end up using the above mentioned extension cable with that one as well.  re: the right angles...you can also buy these (which i have as well), then use them as you see fit or don't.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0927JGG9P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[stoken6]

The critical issue here for me is how to charge the iPad. I wouldn't want to run one through the entire gig solely on its internal battery - particularly if it has to power a dock/hub/interface as well. So far, I've seen two approaches:

1. A dock like @D. Gauss uses - with a 1/8in socket for audio, and power passthrough to the iPad

2. An audio interface connected to the Apple dongle that allows you to power the iPad. 

 

The M-Audio Audiohub above has a "USB Type-C" socket, but that doesn't guarantee USB3 compatibility. If it can power an iPad (supplying about 15W of power), it looks like a winner (despite the barrel power connecter - why not use USB-C for power input as well?). I like the USB hub functionality for multiple controllers - including those with 5-pin MIDI without USB MIDI (easily connected using an inline MIDI USB interface).

 

The Arturia Audiofuse seems to confirm the ability to power an iPad: look for the word "mobility" on this page, and see the third diagram. Minifuse 1 and 2 are bus-powered (only), while 4 has an external PSU, but no confirmation that its USBC host port can power an iPad.

 

USB2 offers a maximum of 500mA/5V=2.5W - enough for a phone, but not a tablet, which needs 10-12W. The USB3 specification has a maximum of 3A/3V=15W before you get into the Power Delivery options - but I'm not clear if that's also a minimum (i.e. if saying "USB3" guarantees this level of power). And neither of the two USB-C equipped interfaces above actually say "USB3", as far as I can tell.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

 

 

[analogman1]

I was at the Apple store today and spoke to a high level manager there (totally random chance happening, as he was helping my daughter with a few computer questions.)

I told him about the fact that so many of us wish that Apple had kept the headphone jacks on all of the iPads. He told me he was coincidentally meeting with one of the heads of development for the iPad and he really WOULD mention it; and the fact that we have like 14500 members on the iPad users Facebook group which shows that iOS users are a serious musical segment.

He seemed pretty positive that he'd pass our concerns on, so YOU NEVER KNOW!!!

 

[octa]

Recently was looking at ik multimedia irig duo pro i/o (& Quattro because I like having 96k option). These are advertised as being able to interface while charging but are pricier than what you’ve been surveying. Someone in dig my rig thread bought duo recently and I’m hoping to hear more about how well that works. — I’ve had noise issues lately using an LG monitor that interfaces with and charges MacBook simultaneously. Could be easier to isolate hum with power and data on separate cables. — I often use original RME Babyface with a split usb cable. These are not too expensive on used market and sound really good. Hold 2 buttons while powering on to enter (and exit) class compliant mode. Use with Apple camera connection kit (with charge option) to charge iOS device. 

[Nievski]

I was thinking simplest setup for using an "iPad as an instrument", is a stage piano that supports USB audio/MIDI (e.g. Roland RD-2000/88 FP-30X, Yamaha P-125/515). Just plug-in and go.

 

More complicated, but more full-featured - build out an audio rig with different devices: a compact mixer (e.g. Key Largo or Yamaha MG06), a powered USB hub, an audio interface and power supply. Perhaps velcro'd it all to  pedal board or inside a briefcase ( and then mount the iPad/iPhone onto the inside lid. Would be a pretty sweet setup. Could even drill some holes into the briefcase to pass-through power, audio and MIDI.

 

 

[D. Gauss]

2 hours ago, Nievski said:

I was thinking simplest setup for using an "iPad as an instrument", is a stage piano that supports USB audio/MIDI (e.g. Roland RD-2000/88 FP-30X, Yamaha P-125/515). Just plug-in and go.

 

i do this all the time with a yammie p-125 at home.  one single cable, turn local off on the board and bob's your uncle.  HOWEVER,  once again,  dumb-ass apple will piss on the parade as you have no way to charge/power the ipad whilst doing it unless you get all dongled up in dangling adapters. (which defeats the elegant simplicity of the whole thing).  the degree to which i detest apple and their one-single-port only nonsense can't be overstated

[analogman1]

Has the MAudio Air Hub been confirmed to charge the iPad via USB input?

[ElmerJFudd]

21 minutes ago, analogman1 said:

Has the MAudio Air Hub been confirmed to charge the iPad via USB input?

I sent in an inquiry for confirmation. Also emailed Arturia about which of the Fuse models are capable of charging the host. I’ll report back. 

[analogman1]

That's awesome, thanks Elmer!