Dilemna for choosing Rhodes and Wurli emulations on MacBook

[jejefunkyman]

Thanks everybody for the good feedbacks, I really appreciate it 🙏 My take away is that there'll be many different opinions based on the versatility of the Rhodes tones themselves coming from the different piano variants which were built up along the time, the different kind of emulations offered by different companies with different approaches, and the individual personal tastes based on one's listening experiences and musical preferences. So in the end it is a very individual quest and final choice. 

One thing I also still take away is that I think I favour emulations based on real samples rather than modelization. 

 It never ceases to amaze me how versatile Rhodes tones are 😂

 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, EricBarker said:

I keep coming back to old Lounge Lizard. I dunno why, but I love the interface, and I can more immediately get a tone that sits in the mix.

 

I only have the cheaper Lounge Lizard "session" but never use it - I remember it as not sounding much like any Rhodes I know. That's not to say it's not a quality instrument that's very playable, or that its sound won't fit anywhere... just that it doesn't sound like a Rhodes (to me anyway). Maybe I should take another listen, but I'm pretty attached to the sound of tines and reeds.

[Al Coda]

6 hours ago, Doerfler said:

They are different. EP-88 is a sampled 88 Stage model, Famous "E" is a sampled 73 Suitcase model. Both sound excellent and are my go to Rhodes plug ins.

For Wurlitzer, I use e-Instruments Session Keys Electric W

https://e-instruments.com/shop/instruments/pianos-keys/session-keys-electric-w/

Everything running in Kontakt 7

 

 

I tried/ use ´em all.

Because I have a excellent recording of the real deal, a friend´s Fender Rhodes Suitcase Piano which just sold for insane money,- I can only say:

NONE of the Rhodes emulations I tried and used is on par w/ that sound,- and it´s CLEARLY audible, especially because the recording was done to demo for the sale.

It was recorded direct from the harp and via mic (on separate stereo track) as well,- no external processing (EQ, compressor or such !)

 

I love EP88s w/ Matrix extension and I know the Spectrasonics´s Rhodes pianos incl. LA Rhodes very well.

But I hate to say,- the real deal is worlds apart when in great working condition.

My friend is 75 now,- and that´s the only reason why he started selling his gear.

He´s studio- and publishing owner and what he does today can be done in the box to make his living, but when he was here at my place last sunday,- after demonstrating some plugins and comparing w/ the recordings of his Rhodes,- we both agreed the sample based plugins are BY FAR not on par w/ the real instruments.

 

And according to the physical modelling software,- Lounge Lizard lacks parameters to get it right in upper and lower key regions simultaneously, while Pianoteq Pro offers too many parameters for the average customer,- and for me too.

I can expect coming very close w/ Pianoteq Pro, but it´s soooo time consuming experimenting w/ the software when not having a well maintained original side-by-side, just to listen for every key and velocity before trying to ajust for every key in the software emulation.

I´m a Rhodes afficonado, but my mind and ears get tired when tinkering too long w/ the software.

When listening to the fotrmerly satisfying result next day,- I always hate it.

That alone is a sound designer´s task and not for musicians.

Up to now, the Pianoteq´s Rhodes mkI is the worst,- the mkII is better,- at least for me,- but it´s not excellent or on par w/ the hardware at all.

Same rules for the Wurli.

 

B.t.w.,- I also bought all the Session Keys Rhodes and Wurli.

Electric W is what I choose often too and even it´s not on par w/ a real Wurli in good condition.

 

I think we have to be happy w/ the compromizes.

Software is cheaper, almost maintenance free and there´s no weight at all,- all-in-all big advantages.

Keeping aged gear alive and making it sound good all the time is a different story,- and transport of that gear is more than ever.

 

 

A.C.

 

[Littidy]

No votes for Neo Soul Keys Studio?

 

 

[Doerfler]

28 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

 

I think we have to be happy w/ the compromises.

Software is cheaper, almost maintenance free and there´s no weight at all,- all-in-all big advantages.

 

I sold my Wurlitzer 200 last year and my Rhodes Mark II 88 the year prior to last. I just can't deal with the weight anymore. 

 

[obxa]

 

After years of trying I've found there is no be all- end all when it comes to these.

Bottom line: If you can find a demo, that's the best thing.  It's not that crazy to own more than one. 

 

One thing that helps is additional processing (not the plug's), and can make a HUGE difference with any of these.  It stands to reason the coder's forte is the instrument,  not FX-  so IMHO you're way better off using dedicated plug-ins for things like EQ, Phasing, or even Tremolo.  For instance,  the Soundtoys Tremolo or Phase mistress can make even the most generic  rhodes patch tons better.  Add a smidge of a Neve type preamp and you'll have something that sounds like the recordings you're used to hearing.

 

As real Rhodes owner,  I'm embarrassed I own just about all the Virtuals.  The real thing is inspiring,  but not practical for recall tracking, or live use.

 

With all of these it's often  playability vs sound.     I tend to find the physical modeling ones (Pianoteq, Lounge Lizard) respond and play wonderful, but don't always have the  mojo.    Love the Neo-Soul and original Scarbee mentioned above  but in context with other stuff they easily get  lost in busier arrangements, and don't always have a great finger connection.    I've often done ambitious things like re-amping to create some fairy dust, but under deadline I get lazy.

 

I think that's why the endless you-tube shootouts are always pointless if the instrument is not taken into context of a real song.

 

I tell myself owning several is no worse than any other plug-in investment, so I've picked up nearly all these during various sales.  I'll try them all depending on the track.  Because I favor the "straight-traditional"  pure Rhodes sound (Bob James/Stevie Wonder),  I will say I probably end up using the dry Famous Rhodes most for recording.  For live,  the Pianoteq and LoungeLizard work well, and are CPU friendly- albeit not overly inspiring.

[zephonic]

8 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

That's right, the "LA Custom E" Rhodes is an Eddy Reynolds modded Rhodes like the Famous E. They probably sound very similar. The only issue I see is that in order to obtain that Rhodes you need to take another bunch of keyboards along with it!

 

The Eddie Reynolds is the crown jewel, but the classic Suitcase and Vintage Vibe stuff are just as good and have a more traditional Rhodes sound. To my ears, Keyscape is best for all EP's, even the MKS-20 is spot on. And the acoustic piano sample is pretty good, too, although that's more debatable. It's definitely a "producer" piano, more so than a "player" piano.

 

[jejefunkyman]

OK, then I'm still kind of puzzled after these last statements, especially the ones from Al Coda and obxa 🤣

 

I think I'll start by getting the Scarbee EP-88S during a sale and then next to the Famous E.

For the Wurli, I'm still hesitating between Scarbee and AcousticSample's Wurlie.

 

Once I'm done with that, I need to start making up my mind for the acoustic pianos. I've not yet tested the Logic's ones though. So let's see...

[SoundswellKeys]

30 minutes ago, jejefunkyman said:

OK, then I'm still kind of puzzled after these last statements, especially the ones from Al Coda and obxa 🤣

 

I think I'll start by getting the Scarbee EP-88S during a sale and then next to the Famous E.

For the Wurli, I'm still hesitating between Scarbee and AcousticSample's Wurlie.

 

Once I'm done with that, I need to start making up my mind for the acoustic pianos. I've not yet tested the Logic's ones though. So let's see...

Scarbee is the first one that I got that I really liked. I don't think you'll be disappointed. I would definitely check out VReeds by Acoustic Samples before you pull the plug on their Wurlie. Both are great, and again you won't be disappointed either way.... but for me, with V Reeds, they improved the playability.  

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, jejefunkyman said:

For the Wurli, I'm still hesitating between Scarbee and AcousticSample's Wurlie.

 

You might want to check out the Arturia, it's modeled but I think does a pretty good job. I just went to the web site to grab a link to post here, and see it's on sale at 50% off, also there's a demo -

 

https://www.arturia.com/products/software-instruments/wurli-v/overview

[jejefunkyman]

Ok thanks for the hints 🙏 It's the best when you can try out a demo. Then you can really careful tweak and hear the tones as you'd like them to be, and decide for yourself if they are to your liking or not 😉

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Definitely. Browsing that Arturia page, one thing I notice with a lot of the sound examples is they try to impress you with how crazy you can get with the programming. I wish they would give you at least one or two examples of the vanilla sound of the instrument – that would go a lot farther in informing me whether I can use it or not. I didn't check out every track, but there are quite a few, and the ones I did hear were not to my taste - but I know this plugin can do it. I just don't have time to click & listen to all those audio examples. This goes for other companies too.

[jejefunkyman]

Yes I agree, just show us a glimpse of the basic tones so we can make up our mind lol!!

 

Most of the time you'll rather be turned off by a super tweaked tone in a demo because this is not the way you are tweaking your own tone 🙄

 

This Scarbee's Frank Montis demo sounds really good to my hear, I must say though...

[Doerfler]

37 minutes ago, jejefunkyman said:

 

 

This Scarbee's Frank Montis demo sounds really good to my hear, I must say though...

Frank Montis is a fantastic player. He is a member of this forum but hasn't been around here in years. He is fairly responsive on FaceBook from what I remember, should you want to reach out to him. 

[Reezekeys]

The Famous E demos are also excellent.

[drawback]

47 minutes ago, jejefunkyman said:

Yes I agree, just show us a glimpse of the basic tones so we can make up our mind lol!!

 

Most of the time you'll rather be turned off by a super tweaked tone in a demo because this is not the way you are tweaking your own tone 🙄

+1. Check out the Waves videos and see if you have the patience to wait for a basic tone that can tell you anything real. Kind of reminded me of Noire’s release. Not for me, anyway. 

[ap297]

Appears none of these run on an iPad. Will now have to look for a reasonable windows tablet - any suggestions?

[AnotherScott]

18 minutes ago, ap297 said:

Appears none of these run on an iPad. Will now have to look for a reasonable windows tablet - any suggestions?

 

There are a variety of EPs available for iPad as well, out of the scope of this thread. But if you want to run these with tablet control, you could get something like a Microsoft Surface Pro, or also, you should be able to use a Mac (i.e. macbook or mini) with an iPad "front end" via the Logic Remote app (or if you're more adventurous, possibly a VNC or screen mirroring app).

[MathOfInsects]

Dilemma.

Sorry, that was for me. 

[Docbop]

57 minutes ago, ap297 said:

Appears none of these run on an iPad. Will now have to look for a reasonable windows tablet - any suggestions?

I got a Macbook Air M2  and it size and capabilities my iPad just collects dust now.   I  think a small laptop is better way to go. 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, ap297 said:

Appears none of these run on an iPad.

 

Is that a surprise? The original topic of this thread was choosing plugins for an M1 MacBook Air.

 

There are quite a few choices for piano plugins available for iPads and multiple threads here talking about them.

 

27 minutes ago, Docbop said:

I got a Macbook Air M2  and it size and capabilities my iPad just collects dust now.   I  think a small laptop is better way to go. 

 

It's the opposite for me - after years of bringing a laptop to gigs I'm happier with the simpler, easier to carry, and easier to hook up iPad. I was bringing an iPad for chart reading anyway - now it does it all. Unlike your iPad my Mac isn't collecting dust though - it still gets plenty of use for its better-sounding plugins and DAW, but that's all done at home - it doesn't leave the house anymore.

[ProfD]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:00 AM, jejefunkyman said:

As for Logic's Autosampler, I'm still wandering if it is worth the time and effort. But I'd be for sure very happy to have my SV2 and VC Rhodes and Wurlis available as software versions on the Mac

IMO, Autosampler is definitely worth the effort.  Especially if the desire is to port those SV and VC sounds over into software.

 

Autosampler can be used to capture any sound(s) that can be transmitted over MIDI. 

 

Autosampler allows for set up up key range, velocity, layers, etc.  It is a very slick sampling program.  I use the MPC software version of it. 😎

 

[Reezekeys]

22 minutes ago, ProfD said:

IMO, Autosampler is definitely worth the effort.

 

I'll second that. It made 270 perfect samples of my NI piano while I had lunch - done manually, that would have taken me...  weeks?! 🙂 (How about "forget it!").

 

After the samples were made I spent about ten minutes setting up key ranges and making a few minor adjustments to the envelopes - done.

[jejefunkyman]

Ok I’ll give a try then 😁 

Any advice on setting it? Especially for velocity layers, sample length and if it is needed to sample every semitone, or every 2 or 3 semitones? Anything else to consider?

Size should not be the main criteria here 😂

[D. Gauss]

25 bucks...

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

34 minutes ago, jejefunkyman said:

Any advice on setting it? Especially for velocity layers, sample length and if it is needed to sample every semitone, or every 2 or 3 semitones?

 

It depends entirely on what you're sampling. In the case of my piano I first determined where the velocity layers switched in Kontakt, then set up autosampler to those numbers. Because I was doing this to import into my iPad & iPhone, instead of sampling every note I decided to sample every minor 3rd (3 semitones apart) - that way, each sample would be transposed up & down only one semitone. This worked great – I don't hear a difference with the every-note-sampled original. I also left out the top velocity layer, since I hardly ever hit it (it was set to trigger only at v=123 and up, I think). Autosampler can set loops too. I tried this with the piano and it didn't work too well, but I might have needed to spend more time with it. I wound up with unlooped samples 10 seconds long which work fine... I don't play many super-slow ballads! 🙂 

 

In general, if the amp and/or filter envelopes are very audible you probably don't want to transpose a sample too much (since the envelopes will speed up or slow down with different notes), but sampling every minor third is probably good. Also, an analog-type subtractive synth might be able to be sampled with only one layer, with everything wide open – then setting the filters, vca, envelopes, LF0s, etc. in the Logic sampler. Some synths or plugins have a characteristic sound to their filters that you might prefer to Logic's and want to vary with velocity or other midi control, so you'll have to sample several layers then – obviously the more you do, the smoother the transitions will be. I think the Logic sampler can cross-fade velocity layers as well as do straight switching, but you might run into phasing artifacts. HTH.

[AnotherScott]

Nice comparison video here...

 

 

[BenWaB3]

10 hours ago, ap297 said:

Appears none of these run on an iPad. Will now have to look for a reasonable windows tablet - any suggestions?

 

9 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Is that a surprise? The original topic of this thread was choosing plugins for an M1 MacBook Air.

 

There are quite a few choices for piano plugins available for iPads and multiple threads here talking about them.

 

 That said, I've still been scouring this thread to see if I can pick up any more advice on a good (or better than I have) emulation for iPad.

 

It seems, for me anyway, Neo-Soul is the best of the ones available at this time. I've tried VTines & Module Pro running their version of Scarbee. Others prefer those and that's totally legitimate. Although using it on an iPad, the following observation will probably apply to Mac & PC as well: With the Neo-Soul Rhodes and Wurlys less is definitely more. When you blend 2 different main sounds, e.g., Mark I & Mark V together they have a slightly out of phase sound. Even more so for the Wurlys. My latest iteration of a Rhodes is just one sound (Nu Mark V is the weapon of choice for the moment), no color or mod in the control section, filter all the way open & no resonance, no artifacts (release, attack, tines, etc.) and just the 10 band equalizer. It seems to sound better than throwing a whole lot of additions into the mix. Of course, I'll put the auto-pan or delay on as needed. 

 

The video AnotherScott put up it very interesting too. Makes me wish Keyscape & Arturia were available for iOS. It's also interesting on how one brand will sound great on one of the examples & then sound like hammered dog feces on another. Of course, they're using different presets from the individual softwares instead of picking one sound on each & sticking with it.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Honestly, if I wanted to get a good Rhodes plugin, I would probably go with the Kontakt version of Purgatory Creek's "Tine Collection". Going from my experience with the version available for the Kurzweil Forte/PC4, I have been very impressed, especially with the MKII (which is the best Rhodes sample I've ever played IMO). I can only imagine that the full-sized Kontakt version would be even better. Price is not bad either. https://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.php/tine-collection-kontakt/

 

Edit: I see that you mentioned not liking the price tag of the Kontakt program itself. I was able to get it for a very good price by waiting for one of NI's 50% off sales and doing a crossgrade from (the free) Embertone Arcane which IMO took off another bit...you can do that crossgrade any time I believe. I can say that having the full version of Kontakt opens up a ton of great instrument options out there.

[Doerfler]

6 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I can say that having the full version of Kontakt opens up a ton of great instrument options out there.

QFT. Kontakt factory library is worth the price of admision, IMO.

It includes what NI used to sell as "Elektrik Piano", " delivering the sounds of the Fender Rhodes Mk 1 and Mk 2, Hohner Clavinet E7 and Wurlitzer A200 electric piano with unprecedented authenticity, playability, and charm."

This is documented in the Kontakt manual.