Rudimentary question - cart and loading

[ewall08530]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:24 PM, D. Gauss said:

 

Good luck getting that down the wet, icy stairs and onto the packed NYC subway.   

I agree!  However that wasn’t the O.P.’s. problem. He can’t keep his keyboards from falling off the Rock n Roller cart and I’m showing it can be done..easily.  He may need a bigger cart.  
  For your scenario I’d have a 61 key midi controller over my shoulder and a small 2wheel folding cart with an x stand, Bose S-1 and gig bag bungied to it.  
   How do you navigate said scenario ? 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Gah.  I have been out in my garage trying to figure out the best way to configure my cart for a long-rolling resort gig this Friday.  They have flatbed carts available but I'm bringing mine in case those suck...but having issues.

I'm bringing as small a rig as possible and I might be able to get away with hoofing it, or backpacking my keyboard/and or cables, but it's a long haul and it's going to be 89 degrees Friday.

The problem:  The ^&*% Spider Pro stand.  The bag broke but it's so thin it wouldn't help.  The problem is that it's a cylinder.  I can't stack stuff on it even with a blanket and my rug folded into a sort of rectangle, the whole thing is unstable.  If it's on end, the ends aren't square so again it's not stable.  If it's on top, it wants to roll and slide off.   That  brings up the 2nd problem--the Modx is in a bag, so I don't want to put the stand on it anyway.   If I put both on end vertically, even strapped to the cart the whole thing wants to slide sideways.

Basically I'm coming to the conclusion that a stackable, cartable rig isn't really compatible with having one that is easy to carry.   The Modx in a case would help.  The Spider Pro would be an issue for my cart regardless unless it was in an actual case or box.  If either of my X stands could get tall enough (I stand and am tall) I'd bring one since they lay flat. 

I think my best bet is to have a furniture blanket "floor" under both the modx case but especially the spider pro stacked vertically on the end where I will be handling the cart (so I can grab any slippage).  straps/bungies to do what I can to hold that damn spider pro upright.   This will also mean the cart can be shorter, so elevators and tight turns won't be as much of a problem.

Yeah, the stand is always the Delicate Flower drama-queen jerk of the bunch. And the "cases" they offer with stands just make it worse.

 

Of course, the venerable X solves this by being a pal and folding into a nice workable shape.

First move is to definitely get a gig bag (with a shape) for the MODX. Those "loose" ones just give use a false sense of security without doing anything to protect the boards. The case is a lot cheaper than a new a board.

Then on a flat load, you could put your keyboard across the top of the load and put the Delicate Flower on top of that, and then bungie around it all. You might even be able to do this now, actually.

For the Friday gig, the hillbilly solution would be to get a moving blanket ($6 at Home Depot), and wrap the MODX and Delicate Flower together inside that, and then tape the living crap around it as a bundle, and then put THAT on top of the load. 

 

I also bet you could pick up a rectangular shipping tube for free or near free at a shipping center and put the Delicate Flower in that to at least stop the theatrics.

Or both?

[Stokely]

lol!

Yeah, I got something sorta workable.  Honorable mention delicate flower to my 4x6 rolled up rug, which also wants to be a problem.  But if it falls off, no biggie.

I ended up with the folded furniture blanket as a bass, then modx first followed by the flat(test) side of the spider pro, then the rug--all vertical.  I have wide flat bungies that work very well, first I did the modx alone with one, then around the spider pro with a second.  I did some roller derby around the garage and nothing came loose.

I've got my eye on maybe a Fantom 6 to replace the Modx and if I do it will get the Gator TSA case being used by the sk pro, which then will get...something.   Those Gator TSAs are bulky but they aren't that heavy and don't have nasty edges to catch on anything.  It would make car loading easier in some ways as things can go on those cases.

[EscapeRocks]

My guitarist and I are very fond of this.  Not cheap, but solid and configurable.   I can roll my Fantom-08, MODX+ 6, Z-stand, or APEX stand, piano bench and rack over all surfaces.

 

 

 

Edited to add: The brand is COSCO

[obxa]

 

THIS

On 2/21/2023 at 1:50 PM, timwat said:

The only really successful way I've found using the cart after all these years:

 

- first trip after parking is with one small hand carry item, to survey the load in, take a look at the stage and set up, note any challenges / obstacles / threats.

 

- as much as possible, stick with a two board rig. Everything we're talking about only becomes an issue when I try to use more than 2 boards.

If I need more than two keyboard sound sources,  I'll add mainstage. 

 

I'll add that sometimes you need multiple carts for different type of gigs, and sometimes you need them all on the same gig.   

 

Got the RnR cart, little mini  folding hand trucks, and those collapsable file box things on wheels. Minis are perfect for theater gigs- where stagehands are overly eager &  plentiful to help unload your car, but then mysteriously disappear at show close and then you're on your own.

File boxes on wheels  are great for gigs using  house piano/keyboards where you  need your own stool, iPad, powerstrip, and other crap......or hauling the female vocalist's lyric binder. 

 

I think a big correlation to how you load your cart is what you actually need to put on it..

For me,  giving up on 88 note keyboards and their associated gig cases has made my (load-in) life so much easier.   Also:  In-ears for monitors whenever possible on band gigs, Bose for solo/jazz gigs.

 

What's super prevalent here in the Peach state: Hotels and special event venues with multiple elevators to get to the ballroom. That and loading docks without access ramps.  That's where it gets tempting to do it all in one trip. 

 

My cranky MO is ask forgiveness rather than permission;  and just use guest elevators and  front entrances whenever possible.  That means stacking vertically.  Having successfully switched to 72/76 boards and less gear,  it's now much easier to do than trying to squeeze a RnR cart with an 88 note case stacked to the gills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This

[jerrythek]

Rock n Roller cart… QSC K10 on bottom, on each end of the cart,

 

suitcase w/pedals etc in the center, along with cable bag. 
 

Piano bench on top of those, with padded suede up

 

Hard case w/Kronos lair flat across

 

soft bag with Casio piano on top of Kronos case

 

Spider pro stand and sometimes speaker stands next

 

All bungied with 3 cables

 

Works great for me, and no sliding problems.

 

don’t know why it posted upside down!

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

1 hour ago, jerrythek said:

Rock n Roller cart…

don’t know why it posted upside down!

 

 

Because thats the shot of my setup.

 

Always this way for me

 

cause I come from a land downunder

 

 

[Stokely]

LOL!

Jerry's picture shows my issue--soft case for the Modx so I can't (or won't) lay the spider pro on it.  I love the soft case for most gigs where I just carry it in, but when it's cart time I wish I had a hard case.  I'd probably get one if I was sure I'd be keeping the Modx7, but again I might be changing thigs up in the near future, and probably with a six octave board  so a case I preemptively bought now probably won't work well for both.   

I've got it working vertically but it's not going to be quite as stable (though it is shorter which is a pro).

You guys must not be in FL, I don't see a Lasko drying fan strapped in there    Seriously, those little fans are ubiquitous here and for good reason.  They come in "rock and roll black" if you want them low profile on stage and have been a lifesaver (and handy at home if you need to dry something!)

[ChrisDespo]

31 minutes ago, Stokely said:

LOL!

Jerry's picture shows my issue--soft case for the Modx so I can't (or won't) lay the spider pro on it.  I love the soft case for most gigs where I just carry it in, but when it's cart time I wish I had a hard case.  I'd probably get one if I was sure I'd be keeping the Modx7, but again I might be changing thigs up in the near future, and probably with a six octave board  so a case I preemptively bought now probably won't work well for both.   

I've got it working vertically but it's not going to be quite as stable (though it is shorter which is a pro).

You guys must not be in FL, I don't see a Lasko drying fan strapped in there    Seriously, those little fans are ubiquitous here and for good reason.  They come in "rock and roll black" if you want them low profile on stage and have been a lifesaver (and handy at home if you need to dry something!)

I love the Lasko fans here in Maryland for our outdoor gigs.   Low profile and really move the air.  Mine fits on my R&R cart along with my 2 boards (88 and 61 key), SSv3, UPS Battery backup, Spider Pro, amp stand.   I purchased the side bags for the R& R cart and my spider stand fits perfectly in in on the end vertical pull handle so I don’t need to worry about it falling off or using bungies.    Next time I use my cart I’ll snap a pic and post it (I don’t use it for every gig).   Here’s a link to the R&R cart bags I’m talking about for the end handles (there’s a lot of space in them and are very strong and durable from my experience with them):  ** no affiliation with R&R carts 

 

   https://rocknrollercart.com/collections/stow-a-ways-transport-solutions/products/handle-bag-with-rigid-bottom-fits-r8-r10-r12

[jerrythek]

I don’t have an problem with the Spider on top of the soft bag… it’s plush enough to still protect the board from the stand’s weight.

 

And for sure a fan is a necessity in HI - I just never solved securing it to the stand, so I carried it separately.

 

 

[Stokely]

Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid about soft cases.  The Modx7 one isn't the thickest though, and that keyboard has a touch screen.  I always have a couple furniture blankets handy so that could help.

[Noah DC]

3 hours ago, ChrisDespo said:

I love the Lasko fans here in Maryland for our outdoor gigs.   Low profile and really move the air.  Mine fits on my R&R cart along with my 2 boards (88 and 61 key), SSv3, UPS Battery backup, Spider Pro, amp stand.   I purchased the side bags for the R& R cart and my spider stand fits perfectly in in on the end vertical pull handle so I don’t need to worry about it falling off or using bungies.    Next time I use my cart I’ll snap a pic and post it (I don’t use it for every gig).   Here’s a link to the R&R cart bags I’m talking about for the end handles (there’s a lot of space in them and are very strong and durable from my experience with them):  ** no affiliation with R&R carts 

 

   https://rocknrollercart.com/collections/stow-a-ways-transport-solutions/products/handle-bag-with-rigid-bottom-fits-r8-r10-r12

 

Can the bag be closed with those straps when it isn't hanging off the cart? If so, how tightly? I might grab one, but it would be a lot more practical if it functioned as a "regular" bag off the cart as well...

[Stokely]

Now that bag is pretty interesting...I wonder if it would be sturdy and large enough to hold the spider pro top down...probably look pretty funny unless I got the bag fixed to have the "spider" part sticking up.   It kind of gets the wheels turning a bit on DIY ideas too     Honestly I gig way more with the Omega pro, which presents different challenges, but at least it rides great on top of my husky tool cart.

On the same site, check out the "wagon bags"!   That actually might work great for vertical transport.  Unfortunately they don't seem to have one for my cart, the R14.

Thinking more outside the box, I wonder how one of those car cargo nets might work vs multiple separate bungies.  Not sure how stretchy those are.

[ChrisDespo]

25 minutes ago, Noah DC said:

 

Can the bag be closed with those straps when it isn't hanging off the cart? If so, how tightly? I might grab one, but it would be a lot more practical if it functioned as a "regular" bag off the cart as well...

Hmmmm … good question.   I know it can pull tight but never thought about using it like a regular bag off the cart.   I just leave it hanging on the cart handle and put my spider Pro Stand in there folded (without any other case/cover on stand) with top of stand sticking out the top of the bag.   It is deep enough that I don’t even use the tie down straps on the bag at all as it hangs just fine and is easy to pull the spider out when I get to stage.   I also store it in my garage in the bag hanging as well (unless I have my full rig setup in house for practice).   
 

I’ll check when I get home and let you know.   I’ll try to grab a couple pix as well so you can see what I mean too.

[ChrisDespo]

26 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Now that bag is pretty interesting...I wonder if it would be sturdy and large enough to hold the spider pro top down...probably look pretty funny unless I got the bag fixed to have the "spider" part sticking up.   It kind of gets the wheels turning a bit on DIY ideas too     Honestly I gig way more with the Omega pro, which presents different challenges, but at least it rides great on top of my husky tool cart.

On the same site, check out the "wagon bags"!   That actually might work great for vertical transport.  Unfortunately they don't seem to have one for my cart, the R14.

Thinking more outside the box, I wonder how one of those car cargo nets might work vs multiple separate bungies.  Not sure how stretchy those are.

I put a bungee (actually it’s an long thick thing that looks and works like a giant twisty tie made of rubber with a bendy metal core) around the spider arms in the “pointed up” position before I put it in the bag so it all sticks out of the top of the bag, but nothing flails around and is secure.

[AnotherScott]

I've never understood how these carts could actually save time and effort... and having read this thread, I have no reason to doubt my earlier assessment. ;-)

 

I'll qualify that. If you always gig with the exact same set of gear, and you get cases for almost everything that are amenable to stable stacking (which also will not likely be among the lightest nor lower-priced cases), and you work out a system so all of this load-friendly gear is loaded the same way every time, and you're willing to deal with what is probably a somewhat heavy cart and the nuisance of the bungees, I can see it. But none of that applies to me.

 

However, I recently picked up this wagon illustrated below, which I'll be trying out later this month, I'll try to remember to let you guys know how it goes. The keys for me were light weight, sufficiently collapsible (and quickly) to easily fit into the car, side barriers so nothing falls out sideways (without having to bungee), and being amenable to things of odd sizes and/or soft cases. This particular wagon has a lower section where I expect to slide in the two keyboards and a small-but-long bag that holds things like the mic stand and speaker pole; and an upper section where everything else will go (since I also bring the PA, that involves multiple speakers, mixer, cable bags, keyboard stand). This one weighs 27 lbs, holds 225 lbs, seems to have good wheels. My hope is that this turns most gigs to single-trippers, while actually taking less time than it would take me to simply walk the multiple trips. :-) 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

I normally don't need a cart, but there are gigs where I absolutely need one.  This Friday is a typical one, it's a huge resort (over 2000 rooms with tons of conference space) with loading dock.   I'll unload my stuff, then my car will be taken by valet.  The pool is way on the other end of this place.  No way I would opt to leave part of my stuff back on the dock and hoof it. (They are offering flat beds, and I may take them up on it depending on size.)

An extreme case was the gambling cruise we use to play on (don't miss it!) with a one-time entry through security and then what seemed like half a mile over docks and up the ramp into the ship, then a haul through that.

I do agree that there may be better options than the R&R carts for many people.   There are some pluses with them, namely being able to extend the length, they are very maneuverable, and you can opt to have it be more like a regular hand truck to various degrees.   

I've never seen anything like that thing posted above!  It's kind of like the collapsible wagon I (and every other parent) used at our kids' soccer tourneys but on steroids  Defintely bring back a review.  Hopefully it has a longer handle than my wagon (looks like it)...tall people have to hunch over to pull the ones we all used!  Ironically it's designed (per the pic) to hold the *other* item every family brought out, which was a canopy.  I would have bought this in a second back then if I had seen it.  My canopy has wheels but it's very heavy and trying to pull both sucked.

 

[aronnelson]

The folded furniture blanket might be the ticket. It probably makes the bottom more stable and can double as a covering when it's hot or maybe even drizzling?

The carts are indispensable when having a long haul. As my bass player said - if I gotta walk there, I might as well be rolling. So many times, we just pack up and roll out even if it's a far walk to the parking lot. We hardly ever drive up to the loading dock. If we can walk, we roll. 

[Old No7]

6 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've never seen anything like that thing posted above!  It's kind of like the collapsible wagon I (and every other parent) used at our kids' soccer tourneys but on steroids  

 

Only $169 from Amazon -- as I just Googled it using "Timber folding cart".  Amazon has it as the:

TIMBER RIDGE Folding Double Decker Wagon, Heavy Duty Collapsible Wagon Cart with 54" Lower Decker,

All-Terrain Big Wheels for Camping, Fishing, Shopping, Garden, and Beach, Support Up to 225lbs, Brown

 

Hope this helps!

 

Actually, I'm not sure it does! 😉

 

I WAS thinking that I would get an R&R cart for my solo gigs, but now I'm not so sure -- this wagon really deserves a 2nd look.  AND a review by Another Scott!

 

So. Kudos' to AnotherScott for sharing yet AnotherGreatIdea.

 

Old No7

[Stokely]

With the assumption that it's built pretty much like the wagons I mentioned--and in "related items" on Amazon you'll see various and sundry versions--I'm guessing this is not going to have the sheer strength of a R&R cart, which probably could happily move furniture and appliances as it's made of steel bars.   Then again--is that really a need?  Our band leader moves big subs with his, so he needs something more open and very strong.  The R&R is very narrow as well, which can be a plus or minus.   For me this wagon thing looks pretty spot-on, provided two keyboards can fit on the bottom part, and my rolling husky case will fit in the top bin along with my stand.  I think if your extra gear is in bags this wagon would work best; my husky tool case might be too big for the top, I'll have to get the measurements of both.   That case is amazing and I don't want to ditch it!

[EscapeRocks]

Just to be clear, I don't use a hand truck or cart all the time either.  It's just for those gigs where the load in is a mile and a half down twisty hallways, and old elevators 

 

Most places we play these days I can back right up to the dock with direct access to the stage.   I do like that cart @AnotherScott shared with us.  I might have to check it out.

[MathOfInsects]

I've gone through carts almost as prodigiously as I've gone through stands.

 

I wouldn't put anything I cared about on that cart. Cable bags and your clothes for the night, maybe. Otherwise that's a one-trip wonder right there...

[vonnor]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:23 AM, jerrythek said:

... don’t know why it posted upside down!

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about...

 

[AnotherScott]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:57 PM, Old No7 said:

Only $169 from Amazon -- as I just Googled it using "Timber folding cart".  Amazon has it

Yeah, I actually included the Amazon link in my text, but I guess it wasn't so obvious! Glad you found the idea useful, though. I'm looking forward to seeing how well it works, but right now I don't have a gig for another 3 weeks.

 

11 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I wouldn't put anything I cared about on that cart. Cable bags and your clothes for the night, maybe. Otherwise that's a one-trip wonder right there...

Doesn't that really just depend on the weight of what you put on it? That wagon is rated at 225 lbs, and when I load it up, I figure I'll be hauling comfortably below that, so shouldn't be stressing its limits. I've been traveling really light lately. I think my entire haul (keyboard rig plus PA) for most gigs is under 150 lbs.

 

[MathOfInsects]

26 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yeah, I actually included the Amazon link in my text, but I guess it wasn't so obvious! Glad you found the idea useful, though. I'm looking forward to seeing how well it works, but right now I don't have a gig for another 3 weeks.

 

Doesn't that really just depend on the weight of what you put on it? That wagon is rated at 225 lbs, and when I load it up, I figure I'll be hauling comfortably below that, so shouldn't be stressing its limits. I've been traveling really light lately. I think my entire haul (keyboard rig plus PA) for most gigs is under 150 lbs.

 

I don’t believe the weight limits. For short distances on smooth concrete I’m sure it will be fine. Well, sorta sure. I do know a couple of guys who do fine with the Costco beach carts. But as a general rule I don’t want my cart to be flimsier than than the stuff it’s carrying. Gravity is a troll.

[stoken6]

I've just realised I have something to contribute. I sometimes use a "sack truck" style cart (two wheels, stands vertically, tilt it, push and go) to wheel my boards. To stop them slipping sideways, I don't use bungee cords, instead I use velcro nylon straps. No stretch, so no risk of the boards toppling off. This kind of thing: CLONK

 

Admittedly, with some of the gear you guys are transporting, you may need much longer (and pricier) straps to secure everything on your four-wheel "horizontal" carts. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

I like those straps though.  I have a bunch of the cinch ones (for my kayak tiedowns) and they are a bit of a pain.  Those velcro ones I bet are a lot quicker in action.
 

[Old No7]

On 3/3/2023 at 4:02 PM, stoken6 said:

I don't use bungee cords, instead I use velcro nylon straps. No stretch, so no risk of the boards toppling off. This kind of thing: CLONK  

Admittedly, with some of the gear you guys are transporting, you may need much longer (and pricier) straps to secure everything...

Cheers, Mike.

 

Thanks for the heads-up on those -- I just ordered a 4-pack of 48" and 60" ones to have for when I get a cart.

 

* * Friendly warning on bungee cords * *  My daughter's father-in-law had one snap back and hit him dead center in the forehead.  No blood, but a wicked purple 1/2" bruise -- but then he had headaches, could not focus, couldn't use his PC or watch TV for too long. One of the top brain docs in Boston diagnosed him as having a "bruise on the brain" (concussion) that went 3" deep -- and it really affected him!! It lasted for about 8 weeks, and he almost lost his job over that, as all folks saw was the "small bruise", but the internal damage to his brain was much worse.  Based on his experience, I very rarely use bungee cords now if I have other/better options.

 

Old No7

[Stokely]

Whoa...that is rough.   I definitely avoid the metal ended ones, but from what you are describing that was from the blow so plastic ends wouldn't have helped.   I've had a couple close calls with bungees and am super careful.  But like walking on ice, sometimes being careful won't save you   

I'll be grabbing some of those.

 

At the Friday outdoor resort gig, they supplied a gigantic flatbed so we all took turns using that.  We lost a preamp (the substitute bass player didn't have a case or bag for it, really his fault) and my fan tumbled off and won't work.   It had no guardrails or way to tie things down and we had a bumpy ride with a few "hills" to navigate.  I definitely should have just used own my cart but it seemed faster just to put stuff on that big cart.

We don't often do resort gigs but every single one of the ones we *have* done have been a PITA (good pay though!)

[MathOfInsects]

Yeah, that bungie-whiplash is real. 

 

Still, I have to wonder how that could concuss someone. Are there other details in the mix? Did he whip his head back and hit a wall or something when it happened?