Nord Stage 4 Announced

[Iconoclast]

3 minutes ago, confidence said:

50 gigs with a $5K instrument is $100 per gig. Do you get paid that much for local gigs that you can breezily write that off the profit for every gig, as the operating cost for one piece of equipment?

 

Of course if you just like it and want to spend $5K on something to give you pleasure, that's completely different. But since you framed it in working financial terms, I'm curious.

My 6 year old Nord Stage 3 is selling for $3500 on Reverb according to their pricing guide, which is still WELL over 50% of what it cost new.

[MathOfInsects]

5 minutes ago, confidence said:

50 gigs with a $5K instrument is $100 per gig. Do you get paid that much for local gigs that you can breezily write that off the profit for every gig, as the operating cost for one piece of equipment?

 

Of course if you just like it and want to spend $5K on something to give you pleasure, that's completely different. But since you framed it in working financial terms, I'm curious.

That's not entirely the right metric IMO. Equipment is sunk cost. The correct comparison in my mind is against what other equipment you would have to buy without this, and what jobs you couldn't do as well without it. My ability to swing a whole bunch of different "one-board gigs" without a single bit of compromise, is worth a lot to me (personally). Having such an effective Swiss (really Swedish) Army Knife is a professional advantage, and saves me real money in the long run. 

Plus, there is the ridiculous longevity of these boards. I so literally never have to worry about my board working right, ever, that the one time in 20 years of Nord ownership something went "wrong" on a gig, I didn't even know where to start trouble-shooting. The thing that went "wrong" was a fuse blowing from a power surge, saving my board. $4 fix. That peace of mind is of great value to me. 

[TJ Cornish]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:30 PM, MathOfInsects said:

For sure, but that was a long time ago. In 2023, IMO the only question should be whether the screen is provided in every board, or whether they hand that over to your own screen. I'm guessing it's cheaper to design and maintain an app than put a good screen in boards. The sound guys practically would not buy a new system now, at almost any level of quality, if it didn't have app control. We need to catch up. 

 

Lots of pro audio stuff with apps has been orphaned - the original IPad-based mixers had hardware cradles for the shape, size, and connector of the original IPad. That didn’t last long. Arguably Apple’s “it just works” success comes from their regular practice of culling old libraries, forcing devs to continually update their software. Lots of things got left behind a few years ago in one of these callings. It happens both on mobile devices and PCs/Macs.

 

You can argue that it’s worth keeping an old IPad for a single purpose function, and the production industry does exactly this - there are lots of old system components in use that need old interfaces like RS-232, and keeping an old laptop or two with Windows XP and serial ports is standard procedure; the challenge is how tempting it is to hook up an old device to the internet, which exposes you to vulnerabilities and very tempting “Update Me” buttons that can cause your stable time capsule to unravel.

 

I’m an IT guy by day, I have enough computers in my life the first 40+ hours/week. I’m very happy to have my keyboards as self-contained as possible.

[kanefsky]

2 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

Lots of pro audio stuff with apps has been orphaned - the original IPad-based mixers had hardware cradles for the shape, size, and connector of the original IPad. That didn’t last long. Arguably Apple’s “it just works” success comes from their regular practice of culling old libraries, forcing devs to continually update their software. Lots of things got left behind a few years ago in one of these callings. It happens both on mobile devices and PCs/Macs.

 

This.  Apple has never hesitated to leave 3rd-party hardware and software companies behind by changing things.  There were a huge number of products that depended on the 30-pin docking connector, or on the exact dimensions of the early iPads.

 

Dedicated control apps for keyboards and other types of hardware often have among the lowest ratings in the app stores for being poorly implemented or maintained.  The companies that make the hardware often don't have much talent in the area of app development, or they outsource it to some other company so the integration isn't as good as it could be.

 

One small but very annoying thing is that most of the time the device you run the app on is going to have some kind of screen timeout or lock, which means that when you want to adjust anything you often have to go through the process of waking or unlocking your screen first.  Then there may be additional delay if you need to switch to the appropriate app or wait for the app to (re)establish its connection to the device.

 

The best solution is probably when the control is web based and the app is essentially just displaying a web view.  That allows the most flexibility in accessing the interface from different types of devices, plus 3rd-party apps can often take advantage of the web API.  It also allows the control app to be integrated into the firmware of the device since the external device is just a simple web browser.  That helps to ensure that the control app is always in sync with the device hardware/firmware rather than being a separately-maintained app that has to support a variety of different hardware and firmware configurations.

 

 

[Nathanael_I]

7 hours ago, confidence said:

50 gigs with a $5K instrument is $100 per gig. Do you get paid that much for local gigs that you can breezily write that off the profit for every gig, as the operating cost for one piece of equipment?

 

Of course if you just like it and want to spend $5K on something to give you pleasure, that's completely different. But since you framed it in working financial terms, I'm curious.

Others have already expressed most of my POV -

 

1) The instrument's value isn't anywhere close to zero at 50 gigs.  I keep my gear very well maintained.

 

2) It's sunk cost.  After paying for it, it's free for the rest of its life.  I paid for it with money earned in the past.  If it's not on credit, the future use is free.

 

3) 50 gigs means practices, rehearsals, just playing for joy, and so many other uses.  I'll have either bonded with it or sold it by 50. And if I've bonded with it - it'll be hard to get rid of, and well worth the $$ over even more years. Initial use is leaning that way - it's so easy to program great sounds and layers with my OB-6. 

 

4) The value of my time playing it for 50 gigs worth of rehearsal and practice sessions will far exceed the purchase price.  That will be hundreds of hours.  The cost of a good instrument isn't the money.  If it's a good instrument and well used, the time spent playing it will be far more valuable.  Ergo, buying low-enjoyment instruments never makes sense. And high-enjoyment instruments are always worth the money. 

[confidence]

8 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

My 6 year old Nord Stage 3 is selling for $3500 on Reverb according to their pricing guide, which is still WELL over 50% of what it cost new.

Ah yes good point. Second hand Nords do seem to retain a remarkable level of value.

[stoken6]

17 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Although also overpriced for it's build I think their C2D was the somewhat most useful of the lot actually.

Why?

 

Cheers, Mike

[MathOfInsects]

The position that app control won't work because manufacturers can't be arsed to make a good app and keep it updated, is my exact point. We're long past the "wouldn't it be cute to have some control via an app" stage. In 2023 it's de rigeur; they must be arsed. And if they won't do that, they need to be putting large, highly functional touchscreens on every high end board, and maybe on every board up and down the line. 

If someone's complaint is that the apps didn't stay current for their old-ass board...the fault is not in the stars, Horatio. It's in the board. 

As for the NS4--I do strongly feel it's time to upgrade those tiny screens. At this price point, I don't see the downside.

[Nathanael_I]

The Nonlinear Labs C15 has a great, fully functional web app that effectively is the UI. Point iPad browser at it and it’s all there. None of the MI companies can match the cell and tablet manufacturers volume commitments. So it is always going to be a better experience to use a screen from them for a device from an MI company.
 

The music industry is surprisingly resilient to change and quite conservative. Much is possible that “just isn’t done”.  

[kanefsky]

32 minutes ago, Nathanael_I said:

None of the MI companies can match the cell and tablet manufacturers volume commitments. So it is always going to be a better experience to use a screen from them for a device from an MI company.

 

That's not entirely true.  The very fact that the cell and tablet manufacturers exist means that there's a wide range of inexpensive touchscreens and related electronics on the market for other types of hardware manufacturers to use in their products at any volume level. 

 

The downside is that cellphones and tablets are updated much more frequently than things like keyboards (both by the manufacturers and by consumers), so very quickly a built-in touchscreen can seem slow and outdated.  That's really a shame when you see it on something like a $15K Kawai hybrid digital piano.  Conversely, a nice set of built-in tactile controls only seems to get better with age (I still reminisce about the controls on my early 1980's Pioneer receiver  )

 

Using your everyday device to control your keyboard is good in terms of always having recent hardware, but the extra complexity of using a device that's running many different apps and frequently has to be unlocked, updated, rebooted, or recharged as well as depending on a tenuous wireless connection is not a pleasant experience compared to dedicated controls.

 

I don't have any issue with using an app or a built-in screen as an alternative UI or for rarely-used functions, but I'm against using it as a way to avoid the time or expense of designing a proper set of physical controls for frequently-used functions.  It really annoys me on my car, for example, that it takes multiple taps on a touch screen in variable locations in order to navigate the preset radio stations.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Nord has all the tactile controls in the Western world. The conversation thread actually started because of someone saying it was overkill (which I don't personally feel it is). 

There is no reason to avoid using the cutting-edge technology of our own time just because it differs from a previous era's cutting edge technology. At this point, phones and tablets are practically legacy tech. Keyboard companies are massively behind the curve on this one. 

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, MathOfInsects said:

There is no reason to avoid using the cutting-edge technology of our own time just because it differs from a previous era's cutting edge technology. At this point, phones and tablets are practically legacy tech. Keyboard companies are massively behind the curve on this one. 

 

There's also no reason to use every cutting-edge technology everywhere just because it exists.  Use the technology that works the best for any particular job regardless of how old or new it is.  I wouldn't want to steer my car and apply the brakes using only touchscreen controls just because touchscreens are "cutting-edge."

 

The reality is that touchscreens and app control are being used nowadays mostly because they're cheaper, plus you don't have to worry about quality or design as much before shipping a product because you can always fix or change things later with software updates.

 

[Docbop]

2 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

There is no reason to avoid using the cutting-edge technology of our own time just because it differs from a previous era's cutting edge technology. At this point, phones and tablets are practically legacy tech. Keyboard companies are massively behind the curve on this one. 

 

I would say the it because of the size of the market and high R&D cost makes investments risky.   As musicians we are focused on MI and to us see like a big market, but in grand scheme of things the MI is small.    Also the high prices of new keyboard and especially the gigging level gear.    That creates a situation like what Gibson has been whining about for year that their new guitar sales are slow, because people are buying used gear more to save money.   Gibson and any MI doesn't make money off used gear sales at best it gets them word of mouth marketing value.    So no matter if a giant like Yamaha or a small company like Nord there is a lot of risk with making big changes.   So company try to use their hardware tech for a long as possible and make new products with control surface changes and software changes.   Computer devices sell in millions of units and many customer update year or two that can afford to take chances it they blow it they just screw one years sales.     So can't expect MI to move as fast. 

[MathOfInsects]

4 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

There's also no reason to use every cutting-edge technology everywhere just because it exists.  Use the technology that works the best for any particular job regardless of how old or new it is.  I wouldn't want to steer my car and apply the brakes using only touchscreen controls just because touchscreens are "cutting-edge."

 

The reality is that touchscreens and app control are being used nowadays mostly because they're cheaper, plus you don't have to worry about quality or design as much before shipping a product because you can always fix or change things later with software updates.

 

This is getting weedsy and unnecessarily "theoretical." 

I am suggesting that the Nords, which already have screens, would benefit from those screens being better and more functional. For those who find it fine as is, that may not change anything. For those who want it, it would be a much-needed nod to the reality of our age.

I covet that nice screen on the Modx/etc. There are times/gigs where I'd practically opt for the inferior board just for the ease it represents. 

 

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, MathOfInsects said:

I am suggesting that the Nords, which already have screens, would benefit from those screens being better and more functional. For those who find it fine as is, that may not change anything. For those who want it, it would be a much-needed nod to the reality of our age.

 

I can't disagree with that.  The ideal solution is somewhere in the middle, where the controls you need instant access to should be tactile, and a reasonable screen with menus can also be provided as an alternative or to access infrequently-used functions.  I don't like the trend towards keyboards that have virtually no controls and they expect you to control almost everything through an app on your phone or a clunky built-in touchscreen UI that feels obsolete before the product even ships.  These generally aren't stage keyboards so they're not really comparable to Nords but I still don't like the trend.

 

If Nord were to add a larger screen, I would hope they wouldn't sacrifice quality and legibility by sticking to OLED vs using a more typical and less vivid LCD screen.  Also the UI should be very simple and efficient, not some fancy UI that's like a phone app with dragging, scrolling, double-tapping, pinching and zooming, animations, cute little icons, etc.

 

[analogika]

18 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

The position that app control won't work because manufacturers can't be arsed to make a good app and keep it updated, is my exact point. We're long past the "wouldn't it be cute to have some control via an app" stage. In 2023 it's de rigeur; they must be arsed. And if they won't do that, they need to be putting large, highly functional touchscreens on every high end board, and maybe on every board up and down the line. 

If someone's complaint is that the apps didn't stay current for their old-ass board...the fault is not in the stars, Horatio. It's in the board. 

As for the NS4--I do strongly feel it's time to upgrade those tiny screens. At this price point, I don't see the downside.

Being dependent upon an app (and consequently, the computing platform(s) upon which it runs) is a guarantee for eventual obsolescence, unless somebody does the work to rewrite the client twenty years down the line, or virtualisation is an option. 
 

I much prefer standalone operation in any keyboard hardware. 

[Spider76]

The moment Nord puts in its instruments a big color touchscreen, or switches to wifi/bluetooth/web-based controls, will be the moment they lose me as a customer.

 

[MathOfInsects]

11 hours ago, analogika said:

Being dependent upon an app (and consequently, the computing platform(s) upon which it runs) is a guarantee for eventual obsolescence, unless somebody does the work to rewrite the client twenty years down the line, or virtualisation is an option. 
 

I much prefer standalone operation in any keyboard hardware. 

I'd prefer that too.

Though I do feel there is a huge gulf between "dependent on" and "having in existence at all." In that wide gulf is where I'd like to see *something* exist, so I don't have to (for example) menu dive, complete with a change in viewing preferences (alpha vs numerical), if I want to jump directly to a particular patch mid-song or even mid-gig. Right now it's all dependent on notes taken in advance, good memorization of the hundreds of slots, or the goofy scroll-scroll-scroll scroll-back scroll-scroll thing. For my purposes, this is a drawback of the current uninformative display. There is no downside and definitely upside to being able to directly access a patch on the fly. 

[JoJoB3]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:46 AM, stoken6 said:

Why?

 

Cheers, Mike

Oh, it was just the more 'fun' to play vs their other stuff. Def not a Nord fan but will use if a must.

[stoken6]

19 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Oh, it was just the more 'fun' to play vs their other stuff. Def not a Nord fan but will use if a must.

Interesting. For me it was “just another pure-clonewheel” like many others out there. I feel the same about the Nord Piano, it’s just another stage piano. The Electro, Stage and Wave are more interesting because they’re less obviously comparable to other models from the competition.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Nathanael_I]

The Stage4 continues to delight - first rehearsal and gig done along with a solid start on sound design.  The immediacy is exactly what I hoped it would be. It’s just fast to get good sounds.  The rig is Stage4, OB-6 module, Eventide H90 and Hologram Microcosm (granular reverb and delay FX).  I use an RME UCX as a mixer. The H90 is on an aux send, the Microcosm is in its FX loop.  I’ve devoted the third synth layer to OB-6 control and the Stage sends it patch changes.  
 

Highlights:

 

1. I know why churches use them. The piano library basically matches every song. It’s like they were recorded on a Nord. It’s uncanny. And the upright piano samples work great with a bass player - just not a lot of energy down there.  It’s so easy to change emotion/feel by turning a knob. 
 

2.  Nord string samples layered with OB-6 and a Nord oscillator can be almost endlessly configured to sound great.  
 

3.  The H90/Microcosm combo pretty much nails any modern ambient and pad sound design needs. Both are very fast to work with. The H90 has a very useful app.  It’s like a plug-in that saves to hardware. Quick controls on H90 put three real-time controls per patch at the ready.  The Microcosm has presets but can be instantly accessed for sound design or modification. 

 

4. Small amounts of Hammond upper drawbars adds texture and sheen without being recognizable as organ.  Super useful for sound design. 
 

5. I’m finding “base patches” that I can easily modify by changing mix on faders, FX on H90, etc. every patch has multiple feels and use in it.  Change piano and the whole feel shifts.  This flexibility is wonderful - or try a different OB-6 patch or a different H90 spatialization.  It’s all immediate. Playing space, not computer-nerd space.  It’s working for me. 
 

The action is fully “out-of-my-way”. I don’t think about it at all. And it’s a rig I’m happy to practice on for hours.  It’s a keeper. 

[Macsaint777]

On 9/12/2023 at 2:23 AM, Nathanael_I said:

The Stage4 continues to delight - first rehearsal and gig done along with a solid start on sound design.  The immediacy is exactly what I hoped it would be. It’s just fast to get good sounds.  The rig is Stage4, OB-6 module, Eventide H90 and Hologram Microcosm (granular reverb and delay FX).  I use an RME UCX as a mixer. The H90 is on an aux send, the Microcosm is in its FX loop.  I’ve devoted the third synth layer to OB-6 control and the Stage sends it patch changes.  
 

Highlights:

 

1. I know why churches use them. The piano library basically matches every song. It’s like they were recorded on a Nord. It’s uncanny. And the upright piano samples work great with a bass player - just not a lot of energy down there.  It’s so easy to change emotion/feel by turning a knob. 
 

2.  Nord string samples layered with OB-6 and a Nord oscillator can be almost endlessly configured to sound great.  
 

3.  The H90/Microcosm combo pretty much nails any modern ambient and pad sound design needs. Both are very fast to work with. The H90 has a very useful app.  It’s like a plug-in that saves to hardware. Quick controls on H90 put three real-time controls per patch at the ready.  The Microcosm has presets but can be instantly accessed for sound design or modification. 

 

4. Small amounts of Hammond upper drawbars adds texture and sheen without being recognizable as organ.  Super useful for sound design. 
 

5. I’m finding “base patches” that I can easily modify by changing mix on faders, FX on H90, etc. every patch has multiple feels and use in it.  Change piano and the whole feel shifts.  This flexibility is wonderful - or try a different OB-6 patch or a different H90 spatialization.  It’s all immediate. Playing space, not computer-nerd space.  It’s working for me. 
 

The action is fully “out-of-my-way”. I don’t think about it at all. And it’s a rig I’m happy to practice on for hours.  It’s a keeper. 

Great to hear you are loving your Stage 4. I concur with all of those observations, and I am a Church Tech Director and keyboard player. I have H90 I never use.. so might dig that out after looking at your post. Cheers!

 

 

[Phil Aiken]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:59 PM, kanefsky said:

 

Nord could probably come out with a "Limited Black Edition" and charge a couple hundred dollars extra

I have a Black Electro. First think I did when I bought it was to bring it to a friend to paint black.  

 

[Docbop]

For those Stage 4 owners   Nord released a new patch today with lots of fixes especially for MIDI issues many were having. 

[MathOfInsects]

43 minutes ago, Phil Aiken said:

I have a Black Electro. First think I did when I bought it was to bring it to a friend to paint black.  

 

Picture please!

 

[Nathanael_I]

8 hours ago, Macsaint777 said:

Great to hear you are loving your Stage 4. I concur with all of those observations, and I am a Church Tech Director and keyboard player. I have H90 I never use.. so might dig that out after looking at your post. Cheers!

 

 

Blackhole, Mangleverb, Tricerachorus, The main hall reverb... loads of ambient goodness.  The H90 is superb.  Dig it out.  Install the software on your Mac and go for it.  I think you'll find it useful,

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, Nathanael_I said:

10 hours ago, Macsaint777 said:

Great to hear you are loving your Stage 4. I concur with all of those observations, and I am a Church Tech Director and keyboard player. I have H90 I never use.. so might dig that out after looking at your post. Cheers!

Blackhole, Mangleverb, Tricerachorus, The main hall reverb... loads of ambient goodness.  The H90 is superb.  Dig it out.  Install the software on your Mac and go for it.  I think you'll find it useful,

 

Sounds intriguing!   Can you expand on where it stands out?   Is it applicable in a normal keyboard live band mix incl solos, or more for keyboard sound design where you are able to more discern subtleties?  Or both?  Do you have any clips to showcase it in either application?   

[ImproKeys]

6 hours ago, Nathanael_I said:

Blackhole, Mangleverb, Tricerachorus, The main hall reverb... loads of ambient goodness.  The H90 is superb.  Dig it out.  Install the software on your Mac and go for it.  I think you'll find it useful,

But the NS4 also features a new ambient cathedral reverb with modulation possibilities…. Fills my need for ambient. 

[Iconoclast]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:23 PM, Nathanael_I said:

....It’s just fast to get good sounds....

And that is why the red keyboard is so popular. My time is worth all the extra money it costs. 

Last night, audience wants an encore, frontman calls out Highway Star (not on the setlist, not played with this band but they know I've played it in other bands) took me less than 5 seconds to dial in the organ I wanted.

I've had (and still have) other keyboards that were a grand or two less and arguably sounded better once you had them dialed in, but the Nord saves me time, that I get back by playing and not tweaking.  My time is valuable.

I wouldn't say there weren't things I'd change about it, but there's things I hate about every keyboard I own. The Nord just gets the job  properly done with the least amount of WTF.

[cphollis]

Just put my NS4 order into SW.  I knew I was going to get one, it was just a question of when.  I'm a fan of the 73 SW keybed over a weighted piano, currently a NP5.

 

Originally, I thought it would be a huge task to reconstruct hundreds of presets.  Then I realized I was thinking about it wrong.

 

I think I can cover maybe 95% of my inventory with ~10 basic patches that I would then vary at performance time.  The remaining 5% would be "specials" for a particular songs, e.g. cool flute voice, wild lead, orchestral hits, etc.  I can probably knock that off in a couple of hours vs many days.

 

Also, my band took the summer off (FL seasons are inverse), we've got maybe 30 new songs in the queue, so the timing was right.

 

I wasn't waiting for them to go on sale, because that's not gonna happen anytime soon. 

 

Keeping the NS3 as it's a great axe.