What’s up with the piano tuning?

[Bif_]

Recently heard this song and noticed the sharp piano after just a few notes. Is this intentional? (I have to assume it is.)

 

Is this a thing?

 

 

[mate stubb]

Horrible piano tone as well.

[Delaware Dave]

stretch tuning rather than equal temperment perhaps? 

 

From some unknown authority (meaning discount the explanation):  "... equal temperment will sound more "thin" and "pure"; stretch sounds bigger and is best used solo due to the incorrect pitches it creates, which can cause the sound to get muddy or too big in an arrangement..."

 

 

[mate stubb]

Temperament is a different thing than strech tuning. Pianos are almost always stretch tuned on top of equal temperament.

 

Stretch  tuning is used for pianos at the ends of their range, because the harmonics are out of tune with their own fundamental. So you have to add more out of tune-ness to the already out of tune equal temperament being used.

 

But this piano sounds out of tune in the middle registers, more than normal. Something isn't right.

[Reezekeys]

Guys... it's a sample rate mixup. a 44.1 file encoded as 48K.

[timwat]

 

[Reezekeys]

I stand corrected - but in my defense, if you rip the audio from the original u-tube track and change the sample rate from 48K to 44.1, it plays in tune - just a half-step lower from where he plays it on the second vid posted here.

 

 

 

There is another "official" video of this song, as out-of-tune as the first post here: https://youtu.be/e-bJ12yMzmw

 

My wild guess is that this was recorded on analog tape and sped up to get a little faster tempo?

 

I never heard of this pianist, and the description on that video whose link I posted above says he passed away just this last May.

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Hmmm, it just seems like an EQ/tone issue to me. Maybe a reverb tail or the like is giving the impression of the piano being sharp to the track..? 

[Reezekeys]

I played along with that first track, it is most definitely not A=440 tuning!

[MathOfInsects]

Just now, Reezekeys said:

I played along with that first track, it is most definitely not A=440 tuning!

For sure! But it all seems in tune with itself, relatively speaking. I agree the piano sounds atrocious, but it feels like an atrocity of tone rather than the piano alone being out of tune with the rest of the track.

[Reezekeys]

13 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

it all seems in tune with itself, relatively speaking.

 

Yes, every element in the track is basically in tune with each other - which is what led me to believe it was a sample rate mismatch or maybe an intentional vari-speed on a tape machine. Aside from the tuning issue, I don't find the piano tone to be that terrible. Maybe a tad bright with the EQ, but that seems the typical smooth jazz way, since the piano is the featured instrument.

[stoken6]

There's a heavy EQ on the piano to try and bring out the melody. I identified it because I tried the same trick as a valiant but ultimately doomed attempt to bring life into my Nord APs. I wonder if the EQ is bringing out a slight inharmonicity in some of the overtones of the piano strings?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

I wonder if the EQ is bringing out a slight inharmonicity in some of the overtones of the piano strings?

 

This observation has nothing to do with the fact that the whole track is obviously sharp, right?

 

I'm listening closely in headphones now. My hearing may be flawed but to me this is just a typical, slick smooth-jazz-y mix with a bright & percussive piano out front in the mix - which makes perfect sense since the featured artist and composer is a piano player! Ever listen to any Brian Culbertson? It's a very similar sound. I don't detect inharmonicity - at worst, it may be an earlier model DP with a clangy sample when notes are hit harder – hard to say but the record is ten years old so we might be hearing the limits of the tech he had available to him.

 

I found the album on bandcamp. I'm not spending any more time on this (what kind of masochist do you think I am?!) but a quick scan of the titles shows most to be pretty spot-on wrt tuning though it's possible he may have set A=442 - is that common on that side of the pond? There are several tunes that are definitely sharp, but none to the extent this "Fresh Air" song is.

 

https://duncanmillar.bandcamp.com/album/fresh-air

[TommyRude]

It's an effect called "Auto sharp", used to combat sampling.

[MathOfInsects]

29 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

This observation has nothing to do with the fact that the whole track is obviously sharp, right?

I think it confusion is that the thread asks whether the piano is sharp to the track, as opposed to whether the track itself is tuned oddly. 

The piano does NOT seem to be sharp to the track, though if someone hears it that way, all we can do is guess at some possible reasons.

The track is DEFINITELY tuned at A=440+X, where X is >2.

Maybe OP tried to play along, heard the discrepancy, and thought it was just the piano? OP, what say you?

[Bif_]

OP here. What color dress do you see?? LOL.

 

 

 

Talking about instrument tuning brings flashbacks to bands in my 20's, arguing with a guitarist about his instrument being out of tune. Disclaimer: I don't have perfect pitch, but have good relative pitch. 

 

I posted this because I hear the piano as sharp to the rest of the track. I noticed it on the intro the first time I played it. Listen to the first 20 seconds, and the piano (to me) is sharp to every other instrument. As the piece develops, I still hear the piano as sharp, but it is less noticeable as the full band plays. 

 

Although I didn't notice it during the guitar solo. 😁

 

I thought it possible that this was intended to make the piano sound brighter, or to stand out just a touch, from the rest of the band. Whether intentional or not, still fingernails on a chalkboard to me. 

[El Lobo]

You guys are above my pay grade in analyzing this. All I know is that my head hurts when I listen to this. 

[stoken6]

13 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

This observation has nothing to do with the fact that the whole track is obviously sharp, right?

 

Correct. It's not at A440. That won't necessarily sound "out of tune" providing all other instruments are tuned to the same >440Hz baseline.

 

My post was about the overall tonality of the piano, which sounds a "little out of tune with itself" to my ears. Your word "clangy" accurately captures what I'm referring to. 

 

EDIT I see MoI has posted along similar lines 👍

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Threadslayer]

This reminds me of a piano I used to have a with a birdcage action. My tuner told me not expect it to sound like a normal piano, and he was right. It sounded like This

[Jim Alfredson]

It's A444. Still used in parts of Europe. 

[Reezekeys]

 

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

It's A444. Still used in parts of Europe. 

 

Yes but I believe that's more in the classical/orchestral world. A smooth-jazzer in his home studio? Maybe – it's not difficult to do on a DP. AAMOF I will be releasing the first smooth-jazz record using quarter-comma meantone temperament with A at 447.5 – it promises to be twice as annoying as typical smooth jazz! 🙂 

 

BTW I make that "Fresh Air" track at around A= 449, so I guess our pianist wasn't planning to perform this piece with the London Phil. Again, since the entire track is sharp I'm gonna guess it was vari-speeded. We may never know, since Mr. Millar is not with us anymore. Another one of life's mysteries I guess.

[MathOfInsects]

Lots and lots of US orchestras tune sharper than 440. It might even be at the point where 440 is the minority. This has been changing steadily for a couple of decades. There's a sense that tuning sharp makes the music more "vibrant."

 

I don't know about 444 being standard in Europe--is that true? I thought it varied more than that. The Germans like things really bright, maybe 30 or 40 cents sharp. What is that in Hz, +10 or so, so 450-ish?

But I'm not sure that's universal. I don't think it is. European members, what say you?

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

BTW I make that "Fresh Air" track at around A= 449, so I guess our pianist wasn't planning to perform this piece with the London Phil. Again, since the entire track is sharp I'm gonna guess it was vari-speeded. We may never know, since Mr. Millar is not with us anymore. Another one of life's mysteries I guess.

Because of my last post I got excited to imagine that he might be German and that might explain it. But no, alas. Wiki says he's from England. I looked up his one and only hit from the 80's hoping to hear that it was also pitched up, but nope. Even that 16-year-old upload of the original video is in standard pitch. 

The Fresh Air example is the most curious one because that would imply it's intentional. Maybe he just liked the sound better...?

 

[analogika]

It makes the piano „pop“ more, I guess. 
 

not in a good way, IMO

[TommyRude]

19 hours ago, El Lobo said:

You guys are above my pay grade in analyzing this. All I know is that my head hurts when I listen to this. 

Does it hurt sharp or flat?

[Reezekeys]

I posted the bandcamp link to his CD with the "Fresh Air" song. https://duncanmillar.bandcamp.com/album/fresh-air. You can compare tracks.

 

The tune that's caused this brouhaha is first, A=449 was how I heard it. The second & third song seem to be around A=442. The fourth & fifth song? A440! I'm not gonna stake my life on any of this but I'm playing along with a Kontakt instance and messing with the master tuning and that's what I hear. I didn't go through the other tunes.

 

I'm kinda done with this but will just add: DPs and guitars can easily tune to any reasonable standard pitch, but there's a limit to how much you can stretch your base tunings when you're using flutes, saxes and fluegelhorns - which happen to populate many of these tracks. I'll still guess the first track was vari-speeded and as far as the others, either he deliberately wanted A442 for some tunes or just wasn't paying attention to how his keyboard was set. Maybe DPs sold in the UK and Europe default to A442 or A444 when you turn them on! 🙂 

[analogika]

They don’t, but grands in classical concert halls are often tuned to 442. 

[El Lobo]

37 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

Does it hurt sharp or flat?

It's a sharp pain, not a flat one.

[TommyRude]

31 minutes ago, El Lobo said:

It's a sharp pain, not a flat one.

Take two nords and call me in the morning 

[El Lobo]

5 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

Take two nords and call me in the morning 

I have 2 Nords, 3 Casios, and a Roland. I'll take therm all.