Do you prefer improvised solos in non-jazz music?

[niacin]

It depends.  I play in 3 tribute bands: Doors, Santana, Pink Floyd. 

 

Doors, I cop the opening and end of Ray's solo in Rider's on the Storm; the rest of his soloing is forgettable imo, so I improvise, copping a few of his licks and staying within the harmonic parameters of his style.

 

Santana: Rolie is one of my favourite players, and I often start a solo as he did and then move on, though I play most of his solo on Soul Sacrifice. Evil Ways has a great solo, I play the first half verbatim and then move on.  Gregg plays exactly what he played on the album, and sure its a great solo, but I really wish he'd stretch out a little:

 

 

Pink Floyd: I play Rick Wright's synth solos pretty much note for note.  It's not what he did: he improvised each performance.  But I like his recorded solos and they're part of the soundtrack to my childhood: I didn't have to learn the solos in Shine on You Crazy Diamond because they were already in my head.  But I get a solo in Another Brick in the Wall, and could cop the solo from the live recording on 'Is There Anybody Out There' but it's pretty naff.  I think he's a wonderful soloist on synth, not so much on Hammond, so I do my own thing.  The organ trading with Gilmour in Echoes I cop some of what he did but it's a jam, I do stay true to his style of playing in terms of note choices.  Generally I think it should sound like something Rick might have played.  But then there's Any Colour You Like.  Rudess improvises in the same vein as the original:

 

 

This is further removed from the original, not at all what Rick would or could have played.  But it's so so good:

 

 

 

 

[bill5]

12 hours ago, CyberGene said:

In jazz, solos are always improvised, or it wouldn’t be jazz. How about other styles, e.g. rock, pop, etc.?

As a listener, do you prefer hearing the solos note for note as you know them from the studio album?

With rare exception, in the name of mercy, no, but it seems most people do, I guess because it's famliar to them, and I find that sad. I hate when a band plays one of its songs exactly how it sounds on the album. As yannis said, then why bother going to see them live? 

 

PS as a number of you have said, if someone does improvise, they should still have a clue on how to stay true to the song and make the solo fit. Deciding to improvise doesn't mean play anything any ol way. 

[KuruPrionz]

10 hours ago, Mike Davis said:

There are signatures and hooks, there are solo sections that are open for anything, and occasionally there’s a solo that is a fully formed composition within the song. Much of Steve Howe’s work with YES, and some of Steve Hackett’s parts with early Genesis are unimprovableupon. IMO 🙂

Could be, although I saw YES twice and Steve Howe didn't play their songs just like the record, similar but not identical. 

To be honest, I've never played or even considered playing any songs by either band. Even way back when I was a bit of a prog head, the thought of copying them was not appealing. That said, Steve Howe's playing was an influence on me, although you'd never guess it to hear me play. 

[Sundown]

I was going to say it's context-dependent, but if I'm honest with myself, I expect the original solo on pop/rock. If it's a longer jam then the sky is the limit, but for most acts I would expect to hear the original material.

 

Todd

[niacin]

There’s a story that Paul Simon once asked Michael Brecker why he kept playing much the same solo live on Still Crazy After all These Years, and Brecker replied that he felt it was part of the song.

[stoken6]

18 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I would expect the guitarist (assuming there is one) to play "Gilmour-ish", melodic and open, making good use of the notes and not going "outside". If they start shredding, they've blown it. 

If you play more or less the first five notes of the solo you've got it well under control.

+1. If it's in the style of "Gilmour improvising" it's good. Same concept applies for many other iconic solos (Sultans of Swing, Peg...)

 

Cheers, Mike.

[niacin]

28 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

+1. If it's in the style of "Gilmour improvising" it's good. Same concept applies for many other iconic solos (Sultans of Swing, Peg...)

 

Cheers, Mike.

this is pretty cool, and they stay surprisingly close to the original, for a while anyway 😎

[nadroj]

Really depends. If you’re a tribute act with the same lineup as the original artist, I’m going expect something different from the 3 piece jamming their own versions of covers.
 

If the solo is a key part of the song it needs to be nailed. Hearing a guy aimlessly wank away over a blues scale instead of playing the iconic part of a song makes me think he’s just lazy. Hearing a guy quote and reference a solo but make it his own makes me think he’s being creative. 
 

In my old wedding band we did shut up and dance with me. It has a synth solo. Fairly simple, until the 4ths jumps at the end. To me that’s an integral part of the song and I did it note for note. I’ve heard other keyboard players mess around with a synth lead sound there instead and to my ears it just didn’t work. Sweet Home Alabama, on the other hand, is the kind of song where I’d sometimes get half way through, forget the rest and just improvise. Or I’d get to the end of the set solo and the singer calls on to keep going so I did. 
 

Then there’s isn’t she lovely - as long as the soloist quotes the melody in their first round through they can play whatever the hell they want after it as far as I’m concerned. However, if during that song I never hear the melody from the lead instrument I’m calling the cops. 

 

Not a solo, but I’ve subbed for a couple of bands who have been surprised to hear my play the actual riff from

superstition. On two occasions I’ve been told “usually our keyboard player just jams/comps on a clav patch until the singer comes in”. That’s just lazy to me. 
 

Unless the audience will specifically be anticipating a certain part, I don’t think there’s a general rule of thumb. A good musician could mask the fact that he hasn’t learned something by making his improv suitable to the song. A poor musician will make it obvious. 

[D. Gauss]

Hmmm,  i don't play in a cover band so i have no idea. 

I'd wager the general bar audience cares little, or notices "that" much about exactness. If they recognize the tune, that's prob half the battle.  Van Halen used to be a total cover band.  Would you have wanted to hear Eddie play the crappy, twinky Kinks solo note 4 note (the one hotly contested between D. Davies and Jimmy Page as to who played on the record)? chalk it up to irony that cover bands cover the VH version.

  As mentioned numerous times above, short pop "solos" are really more "parts" than anything else (and often composed as such), so that's kind of a different thing and you might want to be true sorta to it.  the "hard days night"  harpsicord & george break comes to mind. 

  for something like the rascals, "good lovin'"... imo, if it sorta has a climb at the end you're good.  case in point: the grateful dead's version on shakedown street. or the mary wells version which forgoes the solo entirely, yet used the climb part as the intro:  

 

 

[CEB]

Sometimes,  but most often No.  I find most pop rock improvised solos are a cheater device by guys who can't learn it right.  If you want to improv then at least learn the original composition and not rationalize weakness.

[marino]

I respect learning a solo note-for-note, and with the right sound and feel. I certainly did my share of that in the early days. But on stage, I like to hear some creativity whenever possible.

I read comments where someone says that not playing a solo as is on record shows disrespect for the audience... well, for me it's the exact opposite. I like to hear that the player has taken the time to make the song his own. It doesn't necessarily have to be a jazz solo, if it's not a jazz arrangement. But I love when a musician expresses his own musicality.

 

For example, the "Shadows in the Rain" solo by Kenny Kirkland. On the record, it's perfect - but live, it's a different story. I have seen Sting twice in concert in those years, and every time Kenny started it in a similar fashion to the original, then steered in whatever direction the moment dictated. And every time, the audience roared their approval at the end.

 

In my little world, I have played jazz all my life, but I know how to improvise differently. I even used to improvise the synth solo on Africa. I had learned the original solo, but I got bored to play it, so I thought of something else. Both my bandmates and the listeners used to love it.

[mcgoo]

I've certainly spent many of my adult years doing verbatim covers, nailing solos, parts and sounds as originally recorded. However, one band I've been sitting in with does a handful of originals and lots of tasty covers. It all has a blues edge to it. Well the BL asked me to do some dates, I asked how he felt about me playing nothing but Hammond. He loved the idea. So no parts, no solos & no sounds are lifted from the original recording. And most songs have solos, both guitar and organ. It's the most fun (and creatively challenging) gig I've had in years. 

[Adan]

Maybe quote or reference iconic parts of an original solo.  For instance, there's a few riffs from the piano solo in Jessica that get stuck in everyone's head.  Might toss those in, might not, 'pendin on how I feel.  So far, no one has offered to pay me enough to copy solos note for note.

[cphollis]

A very smart person once said that what holds our musical attention is the tension between the expected and unexpected.  Too much in either direction and we lose interest.

 

This actually works well in a variety of musical settings.  For example, when comping, varying your patterns and voicing in a semi-random manner will usually be more interesting than otherwise.

 

I could say the same for solos, or even rides.  Even if it's a well-defined line, I'd want to introduce enough variation (phrasing, grace notes, etc.) to hold people's attention.  Thanks to playing in Dead-ish bands, both short-form and long-form improvisation is easier for me now.  

 

For many of the songs my band performs now, I composed solo parts.  Sometimes, I'll even play them that way! 

[Adan]

1 hour ago, cphollis said:

A very smart person once said that what holds our musical attention is the tension between the expected and unexpected.    

 

I'd say that's the endeavor any artist undertakes, at least the ones who seek an audience.  Too far towards the expected is craftsmanship, not art.  Too far away from it might be art, but less likely to reach an audience.

 

I don't mind the repeating nature of threads like this.  First of all, that's what happens in forums like this that have a shifting membership.  Secondly, these are among the most profound things we can talk about.  It's not like the first thread resolved it and all anyone needs to do is re-read that thread.

[CyberGene]

2 minutes ago, Adan said:

I don't mind the repeating nature of threads like this.  First of all, that's what happens in forums like this that have a shifting membership.  Secondly, these are among the most profound things we can talk about.  It's not like the first thread resolved it and all anyone needs to do is re-read that thread.

Thanks for that. I registered here probably 15-20 years ago but I started actively reading and participating only in the last year and I haven't seen this discussed recently but I may have missed it.

[ProfD]

Regardless of the genre/style of music, I'm always listening for some type of creativity especially when I hear musicians in live performance.

 

For me, the curse of being a musician is that I have a lesser appreciation for rote live performances.   

 

Change the arrangement or take a solo...do something I won't hear on the recording.

 

@marino nailed it in referencing the late, great Kenny Kirkland playing with Sting which is a great example of it.😎

[bfields]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:06 PM, Threadslayer said:

Anyone have a rough estimate of how many times this topic has been discussed on this forum?

Would you like my off-the-cuff guess or should I go study the archives and get back to you?

[HSS]

I love to improvise solos and challenge myself with creative ideas and technically difficult stuff in real time responding to the moment.   It's an adrenaline rush and life-on-the-edge.   This is also why I love to listen to and watch top shelf jazzers, and in private try to play jazz which I'm not good enough to play publicly. 

 

Unfortunately, IMHO the sad reality is that most non-musician folks in the audience can't tell the difference between a mediocre and a hot lick, and if one rips a highly creative improvisational solo in the middle of a well-known pop, country, R&B,  or rock song,  chances are no one will notice anyway and one runs the risk of cratering the song for a non-appreciative musically clueless audience.  As a result when I'm playing a solo in pop, rock, R&B, or country songs, I improvise but I try not to stray too far. If there's sig licks, I'll try to replicate 'em or at least capture the feel (e.g. Sweet Home Alabama, Rockin Pneumonia, etc.). 

 

I play in some pop and rock bands, but my preferred gigs are in blues bands where I can improvise more.  I  love jazz and it's improvisational emphasis but I' m simply not a good enough musician to play it. 

[EricBarker]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:18 PM, niacin said:

But then there's Any Colour You Like.  Rudess improvises in the same vein as the original:

 

I give Rudess a healthy dose of shit around here, but man that sounded great! And I can't knock the showmanship of getting behind the keys and playing like champ. I do that on stupid-easy stuff, and it still throws my brain into the trash. I love his classic synth work, he's not as great on B3 for some strange reason (even if his heroes all started as organ players), while his immediate predecessor in DT remains one of the greatest of his generation this side of Joey (was hoping for more from Derek in that Comfortably Numb cover, but that's not really a keyboard feature). I never cared for Jordan's signature lead, but every other synth tone he comes up with is magic, and when he keeps his noodles under control, creates some really tasty bits.

[lesmisaceventura]

As a listener, it really depends on what I'm in the mood for. I love hearing a solo that I know from the studio album because I know what to expect, but I also love hearing a solo that is improvised and full of surprises.