The Harpsichord Monologues

[MathOfInsects]

It is 2023. Why are entire buttons/slots/categories of DPs still devoted to the harpsichord? My Nord Stage 3 has almost as many Harpsichord samples as it does Clavs. It's even on the slot name: CLAV/HPS. WHY? Just give me more clavs and let me go find a harpsichord if baroquecore starts to be a thing.

The lifespan of the harpsichord went Bach > nothing > nothing > nothing > nothing > [centuries] > three songs in the 60s that thought it was funny to reference that old-ass sound > nothing > nothing > nothing > [decades] > now. Why not also give me panels for Chalumeau and Musette de Cour? Who is presenting nights of baroque music and using their DP as their harpsichord? For whom is the absence of a whole category devoted to this obscure baroque relic, a deal-killer?

What is this about? Have we just gone with sunk-cost theory and figured well, we've gone this far giving an entire panel over to this obscure fossil, we might as well see it though to the apocalypse now?

 

And yeah, I know some people use it for some things, at some time. So, just like EVERY sound on a DP. That doesn't mean it needs its own button/library/category. Just make it option number 38 out of 38 and for the three people who want to recreate the stoned atrocity of "For Your Love" they can go fishing for it like we do for everything else. 

What is behind this vestigial tailbone of the keyboard world?

[CyberGene]

I’ve seen some classical orchestras (admittedly some less famous, low income ones) use electronic keyboards for harpsichord and celesta parts. 

[stoken6]

"Dammit Nord, I told you a thousand times: I can live with the springy action, I can live with the fixed split points - but a harpsichord category is the final straw. I'm leaving you, and I'm going to find a keyboard company that doesn't categorise sounds. AND THEN YOU'LL BE SORRY!"

 

Cheers, Mike.

[EricBarker]

Monteverdi? Siberian Khatru? Drunk Jordan Rudess? … yeah, that’s about all I got.

[JamPro]

Monday, Monday - Mamas and Papas

Got to be There - Micheal Jackson

Scarborough Fair  - Simon and Garfunkel

Half a World Away - R.E.M.

Play with Fire - Rolling Stones

Piggies - Beatles

She's Leaving Home - Beatles

You Little Fool - Elvis Costello

Our House - CSNY

Too Afraid to Love You - Black Keys

Lazy Flies - Beck

Triptych - Roxy Music

Walk Away Renee - Left Banke

Skyline Pigeon - Elton John

The Fairy Feller's Master Stroke - Queen

Bills Bills Bills  - Destiny's Child

 

It's definitely a niche sound.  Now do what all modern studio gurus do: record some Harp and slap some weird effects on it to make it your own.

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

It is 2023. Why are entire buttons/slots/categories of DPs still devoted to the harpsichord? My Nord Stage 3 has almost as many Harpsichord samples as it does Clavs. It's even on the slot name: CLAV/HPS. WHY? Just give me more clavs and let me go find a harpsichord if baroquecore starts to be a thing.

 

The lifespan of the harpsichord went Bach > nothing > nothing > nothing > nothing > [centuries] > three songs in the 60s that thought it was funny to reference that old-ass sound > nothing > nothing > nothing > [decades] > now.

 

There was LOTS of harpsichord in the 60s. e.g. 

 

Different Drum (Stone Poneys)

Scarborough Fair (Simon & Gafunkel)

Monday Monday (Mamas & Papas)

Both Sides Now (Judy Collins)

Society's Child (Janis Ian)

I Got You Babe (Sonny and Cher)

Windy (The Association)

Sunday Will Never Be the Same (Spanky and Our Gang)

Love is Blue (Paul Mauriat)

Sunshine Superman (Donovan),

Love Me Two Times (Doors), 

Walk Away Renee  (Left Banke)

All You Need is Love (Beatles)

I'll Be There (Michael Jackson)

 

Stretch to the start of the 70s, and you can add Our House (CSNY), I Think I Love You (Partridge Family), Tears of a Clown (Smokey Robinson). None of these are even deep cuts, these are all super widely known songs, probably mostly top-10 hits. Regardless of decade, I actually don't think I could list that many hits of that magnitude that had clavinet!

 

And while not in their biggest hits that I can recall, you can find harpsi in use by most of the biggies of the time... Beach Boys, Stones, Kinks, Elton John all used it. And once you leave top-10 territory, now that we're going into the 70s, you'll find harpsi in some of the prog rock stuff, too.

 

I loved that sound. Back in the 70s, I bought a Baldwin electric harpsichord. Kinda wish I still had it. Of course, there are tons of good emulations now (too many, for your taste), but as with the clav as well, playing the actual instrument is a different experience.

 

If you get into the less universally known stuff, apparently there's lots more, including stuff going well beyond the 60s/70s... see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_baroque_pop_artists

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

24 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

There was LOTS of harpsichord in the 60s. e.g. 

 

Yes indeed, as I said, 60 years ago the baroque relic had a brief and ignoble resurgence. Then that ended.

So did the sitar and the flute-mellotron. And those are samples available in most boards, so that people who want to sound like the short time during the 60s where acid made bad ideas seem like good ones, can have their fix.

But they are not given their own dedicated button and library, on any board, let alone on EVERY board!

My post wasn't, "Can you find any examples of this instrument being used, bet you can't!"  It was, why does EVERY DP produced in 2023, 50 years since the last record producer heard a harpsichord on a song and said, "That's it! That's the sound of success!!" still have a dedicated button and library for this obscure creepy uncle of the modern piano. What gives?? Why would this be a value add? You can still have it as a sample all day long. Why is it still such a prominent feature on an entire class of boards that didn't even exist the last time anyone cared about that instrument?

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Interestingly, I first became aware of the possibilities of harpsichord in modern music via some early Columbia recordings from Terry Riley when I was in middle school (or maybe even earlier). I use the instrument a lot in my own writings and arrangements.

 

The clavichord is a bit less versatile, and there aren't many sample libraries for it either. or by clav, did you mean Hohner Clavinet?

[Mark Schmieder]

I find the sitar one of the most spiritually inspiring instruments on the planet. I was once waiting for eons for dinner to arrive at an Indian restaurant and didn't even care, because they had playing a live recording of Ravi Shankar with Zakir Hussein and I was in tears as the emotional depth and passion were so unprecedented.

[Spider76]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

But they are not given their own dedicated button and library, on any board, let alone on EVERY board!
Why is it still such a prominent feature?

Because of the Addams Family.

[EricBarker]

Yeah, I would agree the original clavichord isn’t as versatile as a harpsichord… unless you give it magnetic pickups and a wah pedal!!!

[bill5]

Yikes. Were you kidnapped as a child and forced to play the Harp for hours on end? I kinda get your point but not the severe hatred of the instrument or its preset on a DP. I have no idea what "harp libraries" even means...I've never seen a harp library on a DP or even workstation, just a preset. But there are numerous DPs I've never tried, so I'll defer there. I just don't get why this is a thing, esp when there are other patches I've seen which I find hard to believe are used more than rarely for most people, but if you have enough preset options, wth? I have an old workstation with some percussion presets I had to look up to know what it even was and have never used.

 

Side note, I can't believe nobody mentioned Alan Parsons  

[K K]

On the other hand, not many DPs feature the cowbell or have at least one 5-octave cowbell program. Maybe worth another discussion.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Yes indeed, as I said, 60 years ago the baroque relic had a brief and ignoble resurgence. Then that ended.

So did the sitar and the flute-mellotron. And those are samples available in most boards, so that people who want to sound like the short time during the 60s where acid made bad ideas seem like good ones, can have their fix.

 

Ah, mellotron... a sound I love, but an example of something I prefer to play in a digital recreation rather than on the real thing!

 

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

But they are not given their own dedicated button and library, on any board, let alone on EVERY board!

 

I don't think every board has a dedicated button or bank for harpsichord sounds. But I think you are missing part of the beauty of categories. They don't only make it easier to find sounds, they make it easier to avoid sounds. If the harpsichord sounds are just mixed in with some other bank, then MoI would annoyingly have unwanted harpsichord sounds cluttering up that other bank, just more stuff to navigate through while looking for what you actually want. Segregating them helps make them as easy to avoid as they are to find.

 

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

My post wasn't, "Can you find any examples of this instrument being used, bet you can't!"  It was, why does EVERY DP produced in 2023, 50 years since the last record producer heard a harpsichord on a song and said, "That's it! That's the sound of success!!" still have a dedicated button and library for this obscure creepy uncle of the modern piano. What gives?? Why would this be a value add? You can still have it as a sample all day long. Why is it still such a prominent feature on an entire class of boards that didn't even exist the last time anyone cared about that instrument?

 

My point remains that I think harpsi has been more prevalent than you think in modern music AND/OR clav has been less prevalent than you think... because you seem okay with a clav category, and I don't see a world of difference in their relevance to modern music. Harpsi's contemporary heyday may have been 60s, but as my post and the one previous to it indicated, there are plenty of more recent examples even if it's not a mainstream sound... but importantly, likewise I'd say we're well past the heyday for clav as well, which was really the 70s. Joe Muscara compiled a great list of clav songs based in large part on suggestions from forum members - but looking at that list, I don't know that there are any more hugely known clav songs than there are hugely known harpsi songs. Okay, I'm not in a funk band, but in my wedding band that covers a wide range of popular music from 50s to current, I probably use a harpsi patch just as often as a clav patch.

[mate stubb]

Let's talk about the shockingly bad samples used in most harpsichord presets in DPs.

 

Sit down at a real instrument with its light action, resonant case and rich tone and you will be impressed.

[David Emm]

Playing a real Mellotron these days when there are several stable digital versions around is seen as a subdivision of OCD in the DSM-IV.

 

No excuses, you're balmy. 🤪

 

The main thing missing in most harpsichord patches is the sound of the plectrum falling back into place after you've hit the key. When I hear that one done right, I know it was created by someone who understood the full "duty cycle" of the instrument.

 

BTW, I once got to play a Baldwin electric harpsichord and found it surreal. Damn thing was near the size of a baby grand, so the sound had big biceps you'd never get from the real thing. Its the 'lectrified cousin of the pedal harpsichord. Check out E. Power Biggs playing Scott Joplin on one and you'll be close to the overall tone.       

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz4UvTJLrgg

[Mark Schmieder]

Actually, kind of like with pipe organ , the room is part of the instrument when it comes to harpsichord. That's one of the reasons there are so many variants (virginal, etc.). Even the best sample libraries don't cover that well, and most don't deal with the nuances of multiple stops and clever mechanisms on certain models that do give it (with the right playing technique) some variation.

 

I owned Roland's Digital Harpsichord for many years. I finally sold it because I was so annoyed that you couldn't record it without it being loud in the room. That is, the Line Out level was dependent on the master Volume that controlled the built-in speakers, and they couldn't be turned off. The third generation model (I had the second generation; the first generation was Japan-only) was a big improvement except for mysteriously going to a standard keybed action vs. a harpsichord-specific one.

 

I agree that the Clavinet has seen its day as well, unfortunately. It had a bit of a resurgence in the 1980's and early 90's in the Celtic Revival scene, of all things (one example is Triona Ni Dhomhnaill of Touchstone, Relativity,  and other bands).

[CowboyNQ]

I have no wisdom on the reason for this but maybe it comes from the same school of thought that ensures all my romplers have a deep and rich variety of “Vox” patches.

 

scooby-dooby-doo-wop-a-bop-be-bahhhh!

[EricBarker]

I laughed out loud at this, and then realized I would never be able to repeat this joke to anyone else, cuz they’d have no idea what I was talking about!

[bill5]

2 minutes ago, CowboyNQ said:

I have no wisdom on the reason for this but maybe it comes from the same school of thought that ensures all my romplers have a deep and rich variety of “Vox” patches.

I've yet to hear one I cared for either. Fortunately there are more and better choices with plugins.   

[Mark Schmieder]

Yamaha has some pretty good Vox effects in their ROMplers, but that's a different Vox we're talking about there (righteous British amp sim!).

[Tom Williams]

I think I agree with MOI's thesis that the harpsichord doesn't deserve its own category.  But I disagree with his apparent assessment of the instrument.

 

Expanding on Mark's point: Part if the problem with harpsichord patches is they never approach the sonic versatility of a real instrument.  4' stops, chorale stops, and the underappreciated lute stop, made real harpsichords into quite expressive instruments for the time.  The best pianos only have one timbre -- good harpsichords have 3 or 4, with gradations in between.

 

Besides which, how can I form my Partridge Family Tribute Band if there's no harpsichord to start "Come On, Get Happy"?

 

A nice example of modern harpsichord work is Emerson on "Still You Turn Me On." 

[niacin]

Hammond SK-pro. I’m with the OP at wtf 🙈

 

I rather like the sound of a real harpsichord, but can’t really let this thread go without mentioning Sir Thomas Beecham’s description of it as “Two skeletons copulating on a tin roof” 🤣

[stillearning]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

…I loved that sound. Back in the 70s, I bought a Baldwin electric harpsichord. Kinda wish I still had it. Of course, there are tons of good emulations now (too many, for your taste), but as with the clav as well, playing the actual instrument is a different experience.…

Me, in the 70’s with a Baldwin Solid Body harpsichord, still have it too! But needs regulated.

 

Actually have an actual wooden acoustic harpsichord too, but it needs a lot of restoration. Someday. 

[uhoh7]

11 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

It is 2023. Why are entire buttons/slots/categories of DPs still devoted to the harpsichord? My Nord Stage 3 has almost as many Harpsichord samples as it does Clavs. It's even on the slot name: CLAV/HPS. WHY? Just give me more clavs and let me go find a harpsichord if baroquecore starts to be a thing.

The lifespan of the harpsichord went Bach > nothing > nothing > nothing > nothing > [centuries] > three songs in the 60s that thought it was funny to reference that old-ass sound > nothing > nothing > nothing > [decades] > now. Why not also give me panels for Chalumeau and Musette de Cour? Who is presenting nights of baroque music and using their DP as their harpsichord? For whom is the absence of a whole category devoted to this obscure baroque relic, a deal-killer?

What is this about? Have we just gone with sunk-cost theory and figured well, we've gone this far giving an entire panel over to this obscure fossil, we might as well see it though to the apocalypse now?

 

And yeah, I know some people use it for some things, at some time. So, just like EVERY sound on a DP. That doesn't mean it needs its own button/library/category. Just make it option number 38 out of 38 and for the three people who want to recreate the stoned atrocity of "For Your Love" they can go fishing for it like we do for everything else. 

What is behind this vestigial tailbone of the keyboard world?

I guess you hate Scarlatti also? The Piano we know was unknown til about 1850, when the iron frame began mass production, begining in the USA. Your frame of mind did take over for 100 years, and Harpsichord construction was forgotten, hence nobody really knew what they sounded like until....the 80's or even later.  It turns out the "Harpsichord Revival" of the 60's, for example, Wanda Landowska, and the many Harpsichord kits that were sold everywhere, were....er...like early Chinese guitars. Today there is a huge revival in Europe. It's a unique instrument, and different than the piano in more than just action. 

 

You probably have a lot of harpsichord presets because the Nord guys....are open minded....pay attention....listen... and learn new ways to play, as more and more is uncovered about keyboard history. The 1960's were the dark ages, with little consciousness of how keyboards were played and taught in the 200 years before 1800 when the foundations of harmony were laid down. 

 

I suspect you could care less, but you asked the question...why? 

 

Imagine a Shakespeare play performed in English, by actors who do not speak English. They just learned the sounds from a notation system. That was the state of classical music in 1970, with a very few exceptions, that nobody really knew about. As interest in historical instruments grew, and attempts by craftsmen began to recreate them, and many more kids did grad school in music....the fog began to clear just a little...

 

Scott Ross was one of the first to chase down the few real Harpsichords in the 80s in Europe. He was a very interesting guy, died young of AIDS. Here is a famous quote from him:

"When I hear nutcases like Glenn Gould who do: [plays staccato version of J.S. Bach's Partita no. 1, BWV 825, Allemande], I say he understood nothing of Bach's music! I've listened carefully to his records: he didn't understand. He was very brilliant; I respect him up to a certain point. For me, the fact that an artist doesn't appear in public poses a problem. But at least he was a guy with the courage not to do things like other people. All the same, he was wide off the mark, so wide off the mark that you'd need a 747 to bring him back. I'm hard on Glenn Gould. Well, he's dead now, so I won't attack a colleague.[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ross_(harpsichordist)

 

 

Then round about 2007 a earth shaking book appeared: "Music in the Galant Style" by a Northwestern Professor, Robert Gjerdingen. It has won a bunch of prizes and created a huge revival....one aspect of which is we now know that improvisation was a fundamental skill, and nobody had any respect for  playing from memory or scores until the age of recording basically. Beethoven became famous how? In cutting contests at cocktail parities in Vienna. So, Gjerdingen, in his book, basically explained how to speak English, and not just mimic sounds. 

 

The trouble is.....it's not that easy. Especially if you are a music professor in your 40's and 50's. You think you are frustrated by some friggin presets? 

 

Anyway "Historically informed performance" is a serious thing now....and is increasingly a viable alternative to becoming a human tape replay machine for the  atonal chaos of the 20th century as a classical musician. You are not the only one howling about it, LOL. 

 

But it makes trying to get a handle on historical music much more fun and interesting for a bunch of people. Here is a 6 min explanation you might possibly be able to endure:

 

And here is perhaps the most informed harpsichordist alive today, a native of Naples, Enrico Baiano, sorry you have to listen on YT. 

 

I know TLDR.....

[Franz Schiller]

That's super cool UhOh!

[SMcD]

MathOfInsects, that's the kind of eloquent fury that would make Hunter S. Thompson proud. Thanks for a fun Monday read.

 

Aside from that, I'm just here to make sure that "Scarlet Begonias" gets added to the list of notable harpsichord tracks from the 60's/70's.

[uhoh7]

I guess harpsichords can be tuned fast, which is good because they need to be, but that also makes those extra luscious meantone 3rds very accessible. Getting that correct on a iron frame grand is quite a chore...I know,,,you think the preset will hand it over...try and let me know

 

You have to imagine being in the room with one, the same of course true with a good piano, no preset is remotely as close as the B3 clones. Acoustic instruments in person....very addictive.

 

The YT compressor is no friend to music but maybe there is a meantone hint to be had here:

 

 

Also extra sexy: those carved keys. I hope I never come in contact with a decent one for sale....they move pretty easy....

 

In the centuries of the Harpsichord, nobody, least of all Scarlatti, wrote down all the notes, and in that respect the performance above is ahistorical. Anyone with a harpsichord in 1700 considered a musician was a very informed and experienced improviser. How did you mange those incredible singers trained from childhood, who never sang an encore the same way? From the Harpsichord! Operas in Naples were a negotiation in realtime with much at stake. The younger Handel faced that tightrope and finally sought refuge in the much less stressful religious genres. Where did he get his chops? Naples of course. What was his primary weapon at work? The harpsichord of course. I would like to have heard a rehearsal....

 

 

Some nice bits about how this 1993 film was made:

https://youtu.be/TYNA2YYkGFU

 

It's an incredible movie following this guy from childhood, with Handel as a major character. I had never heard of it till a few years ago. Porpora, Haydn's difficult mentor, to whom he credited his success, is a good guy---trained in Naples of course.

 

Stendhal wrote about the  1737 Naples Opera House, the San Carlo:  

There is nothing in all Europe, I won’t say comparable to this theatre, but which gives the slightest idea of what it is like... it dazzles the eyes, it enraptures the soul...

 

 

This Neapolitan harpsichord is thought to be the oldest - and best preserved - harpsichord in fully playable condition (c.1520-1530). Its builder's name is not identified, although he has been recognized as the same author of an instrument housed at the Castello Sforzesco's collection in Milan:

 

 

[bfields]

Random hypothesis: market research has come up with a list of what customers want to try in the music store.  A disproportionate number of prospective keyboard buyers are piano students curious to know what the two-part invention they learned for last year's recital sounds like on harpsichord.

 

(But then shouldn't there also be a dedicated "Jump!" button?)

[Mark Schmieder]

Waitaminnit, shouldn't "Jump" get its own category button, so you can have variants for every room size that you might play?