quest for an acoustic piano

[zephonic]

So after overpaying for a dud of a rental for six+ years, I finally returned it and am now on the hunt for a good upright or baby grand (<5'5).

 

I realize how little I know about the US piano market, a bunch of brands I have never even heard of. To further confuse matters, there's dozens of brands with German names, but actually made in Asia. 

 

When I grew up in Holland there were the big three (Steinway, Bösendorfer, Bechstein), assorted mid-tier German, East-European and French manufacturers, two Japanese brands and a Korean upstart. 

 

I've been visiting piano stores in the area, but so far nothing stood out to me in my price range (<$10K out the door). Played a very nicely reconditioned Kawai KG-1E from 1989/1990 but that one was more expensive at 13K. I did like a new K-500 upright I played, but another K-500 in a different store was a bit meh. Funny how things can differ like that, I always thought Japanese brands were known for their consistency.

 

I'd be happy to hear any advice (or possible deals in the LA area) anyone would care to offer. Thanks.

[Ledbetter]

Contact local piano technicians. Some broker sales for their clients. My piano tech got me a K Kawai 6’ grand from the 1970’s for around $7K. Solid mahogany, chosen among 10 or twenty auditioned by the choirmaster from the previous owner’s church. Hardly broken in, previous owner an older doctor. Good luck.

[ElmerJFudd]

Yamaha U1, U2, U3

Kawai K300, 400, 500

 

Used or new doesn’t matter. After playing compare to what Petrof has to offer in the same upright sizes and see what you think of sound and feel before dropping the $.  
 

Baby grands in your price range.  Maybe a restored Mason Hamlin, Chickering, Knabe, etc. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

I have a Yamaha U3H since February 2020 (yes, weeks before the lockdown!) and I am pretty happy with it. Is a refurbished (in 2016) 1976 unit and cost was 3700€. Worth every penny!

 

Of course, you need to play as many pianos as you can before deciding. This is just my experience.

 

Jose

[cphollis]

Very much agree with the advice on Yamaha and Kawai.  These are great instruments, and there are enough of them that there is a real market with known prices for the most part.  Also, the Piano Buyer website will help you figure out the true nature of branded pianos and their origin.  Don't overlook the great old American classics: Baldwin, Chickering, etc. -- some of the older examples are stellar instruments.

 

EDIT: and if you're in the market for this type of instrument, you owe it to yourself to check out a Yamaha AvantGrand.

[DJkeys]

I worked in a Yamaha/Baldwin piano dealer for 7 years. I was lucky enough to find a 1988 Yamaha U3 that I bought in 1993 for $2000 (not in the store, of course)!  It is a monster of a piano, so any of the Yamaha uprights would be a good bet.  Also, keep in mind, that a 52 inch upright piano will probably sound better than a small grand piano and has a soundboard about the same size.  Many of the entry level "baby grand" pianos are often better furniture than instruments.  

 

-dj

[zephonic]

9 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yamaha U1, U2, U3

Kawai K300, 400, 500

 

Used or new doesn’t matter. After playing compare to what Petrof has to offer in the same upright sizes and see what you think of sound and feel before dropping the $.  
 

Baby grands in your price range.  Maybe a restored Mason Hamlin, Chickering, Knabe, etc. 

 

In the old country I had a Petrof upright for many years, hated that thing. I see a lot of Mason Hamlins at the stores, the other brands not so much.

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

I'd stay away from baby grands. You probably won't find anything that sounds as good as a comparable upright / console for that price. Anything under 6' is usually no better tone-wise than an upright.

Kawai and Yamaha are your best bet. I did like the Boston brand, which is Steinway's Chinese made piano. Good strong sound, easy to tune. But the Yamahas are the best. U series.

[zephonic]

Another thing to consider with a new upright would be burn in. I find Kawai uprights a bit too dark, but the rep asserted that after a few months of playing the hammers compress and the sound will brighten up. I wonder how much though? I don't like overly bright pianos, but I do want enough of a change in tone when hitting fortissimo. 

[Jim Alfredson]

2 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Another thing to consider with a new upright would be burn in. I find Kawai uprights a bit too dark, but the rep asserted that after a few months of playing the hammers compress and the sound will brighten up. I wonder how much though? I don't like overly bright pianos, but I do want enough of a change in tone when hitting fortissimo. 

 

I would agree that Kawai pianos tend to be dark. Yamahas are much brighter. It is easier to darken the tone than brighten it. The former requires needling the hammers to make them slightly softer. The latter requires chemicals. Not fun.

 

[zephonic]

Thanks, Jim. But is that notion of a new piano brightening up after a few months of regular use due to compressing hammer felts a correct one? Or merely a sales pitch?

 

4 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

 

It is easier to darken the tone than brighten it. The former requires needling the hammers to make them slightly softer. The latter requires chemicals. Not fun.

 

 

I remember from my few months at the Piano Tech school, the instructor told us that sometimes they'd actually use hair spray to harden the hammers!

[zephonic]

Another thing that has me confounded is the lack of transparency regarding new piano prices. And many dealers seem reluctant to give you a straight answer.

 

Electronic instruments market seems to be much more regulated, in that regard.

[Jim Alfredson]

14 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Thanks, Jim. But is that notion of a new piano brightening up after a few months of regular use due to compressing hammer felts a correct one? Or merely a sales pitch?

 

A few months? No. A few years maybe, with lots of playing.

[16251]

IMO, I would rather have any decent grand, even if an upright might sound better. My story: I can't fit a grand in my house. I also always wanted a Steinway and over 10 years ago found a K, built in 1990. At the time, I toyed with buying  a Yamaha Grand Touch because of the grand action but I felt the samples were not worth the selling price.  Then Yamaha released the AG and I tried it, I immediately put my K on the market and my N2 has been a perfect practice tool for me.

 

I know this thread is about getting an acoustic and if you can fit a 5'5" grand, I think if it's not a dog you should enjoy it more than anything with an upright action.

[16251]

20 minutes ago, 16251 said:

IMO, I would rather have any decent grand, even if an upright might sound better. My story: I can't fit a grand in my house. I also always wanted a Steinway and over 10 years ago found a K, built in 1990. At the time, I toyed with buying  a Yamaha Grand Touch because of the grand action but I felt the samples were not worth the selling price.  Then Yamaha released the AG and I tried it, I immediately put my K on the market and my N2 has been a perfect practice tool for me.

 

I know this thread is about getting an acoustic and if you can fit a 5'5" grand, I think if it's not a dog you should enjoy it more than anything with an upright action.

I found this at Pianomart  as example of what I might buy if I was in your shoes.

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=51220

 

[zephonic]

That’s what I mean, Boston is an unfamiliar brand to me, need to learn more about it.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, zephonic said:

 

In the old country I had a Petrof upright for many years, hated that thing. I see a lot of Mason Hamlins at the stores, the other brands not so much.

 

 

I’ve had colleagues and students do well with Mason & Hamlin.  
 

I’ve only ever sat at a Petrof upright in the 90s when I was shopping around.  Mentioned to me as worth a look, I passed on it.  I had a similar cap to my budget as the OP and chose a rebuilt Chickering from 1910.  I’ve had it 20 years, no regrets.  Was in the shop the other day - played the Kawai 300, 4, 5, Yamaha U1, 2, 3 and a few Schimmels (way out of my league).  All excellent choices at their differing price points. Obviously if you can grab a K500 or a U3 that would be the way to go.  But that takes some hunting.  

[ElmerJFudd]

10 minutes ago, zephonic said:

That’s what I mean, Boston is an unfamiliar brand to me, need to learn more about it.

The Boston baby grands are made in the Kawai factory to Steinway’s spec.  Priced a bit over the RX line.  Tough call on which one of those two to choose with price being a factor. 

[16251]

14 minutes ago, zephonic said:

That’s what I mean, Boston is an unfamiliar brand to me, need to learn more about it.

From what I read in the past Boston uses a scaling that suppose to give it a bigger sound in a smaller size grand.  I also bought and sold on Pianomart before and had a positive experience.

[Shamanzarek]

One of my students had a Boston upright. It sounded amazing with a big rich low end. The best sounding upright I've ever played. Other students had top quality Yamaha, Baldwin, and other brands but none compared to the Boston.

[zephonic]

Oh wow, a FREE Steinway Baby Grand: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1051000932345749/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner

 

All I have to is call his uncle and he'll tell me how to get it. The same instrument was listed at the same time in Irving, TX as well, so I really lucked out here!

 

 

[zephonic]

On a serious note, the last really good piano I practiced on regularly was a Yamaha C5 at Coast Music around seven or eight years ago. Didn't love the sound, but the action was unforgiving, it would really let you know when you were trying to fib or cut corners.

Not the most fun to play, but practicing on that thing really helped me focus on proper technique and execution. A lot of the stuff I've played over the last two weeks is easy, but lazy.

 

Guess I need to decide if I just wanna have an instrument to enjoy or one that makes me work harder. Or find the one that does both for a price I can afford lol

[Nathanael_I]

Simple rule on acoustic instruments.  I have to love it enough to practice on it for hours at a time without thinking about it.  A piano is way too big to not like it!  For that $$ you can definitely find an excellent piano.  Here in the Bay Area, there's Kohler and Campbell baby grands for sale for $3500 all the time.  Many are in excellent condition - used by one child who was not a virtuoso. 

 

I far prefer the Kawai house sound to the Yamaha one.  The Yamaha's I like are the new S7X line - phenomenal instrument (and $100k). The C series never grabbed me, but I'll admit to being an odd one in that regard.  They are super popular in pop music. 

 

The good news is that a grand piano is a hard thing to sell.  If you've got $$, you have the leverage right now.  Keep looking and playing as much as you can.  You will know when you are playing "the one". 

[Strays Dave]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:57 AM, cphollis said:

Very much agree with the advice on Yamaha and Kawai.  These are great instruments, and there are enough of them that there is a real market with known prices for the most part.  Also, the Piano Buyer website will help you figure out the true nature of branded pianos and their origin.  Don't overlook the great old American classics: Baldwin, Chickering, etc. -- some of the older examples are stellar instruments.

 

EDIT: and if you're in the market for this type of instrument, you owe it to yourself to check out a Yamaha AvantGrand.

I'm not a techie.  I play piano and simply want one that feels and sounds "real".  I've had an N1X approaching 2 years now.  I recommend you try one out to see how it feels and sounds to you. 

 

[Montunoman 2]

You have several great advantages here: 

 

You have a good solid budget with lots of options. 

 

You live in Los Angeles, so you have a huge selection on the used market, but I know first hand how spread out LA country is and of course LA traffic is another issue.... 

 

It's a buyer market for used pianos. 

 

I recently bought a used baby grand, drove all over North Texas trying out mostly poor condition pianos in peoples homes. I went to the big dealers like Steinway and Sons, but unfortunately even their used pianos were out of my budget.  I found a independent tech that restores pianos, and his prices are very good. Anyways, I wish you well on your quest! 

[zephonic]

Yes, you get used to the spread and traffic, but it still sucks.

 

Checking out two private sales on Sunday, now that I've started looking at craigslist, FB marketplace etc. I'm learning that dealer prices are seriously inflated. The only guy who has been upfront and reasonable with his prices so far is Pierre.

 

What would a reasonable price for a recent Kawai RX1 be? 2010's I think.

 

I saw one but it's out of state and I wonder if it's worth the drive/flight to go check it out.

[zephonic]

13 hours ago, Nathanael_I said:

I far prefer the Kawai house sound to the Yamaha one. 

 

You know, I concur when it comes to grands, but for uprights I tend to like the Yamahas a little better. 

 

But the differences between individual pianos are often greater than any brand family resemblance, especially used.