How to Ruin a Perfectly Good Song...

[allan_evett]

Work with a lead singer-guitarist who has the bridge chords reversed and refuses to change them, despite obvious conflicts with the lead vocal line from the original recording. He twists it around to sort of make it work, but dug in his heels when I politely recommended a cafeful listen and play-along. Irritating AF, especially when transcription is one of the things I teach. 

 

How do the rest of you deal with bull-headed leaders who refuse to be taught basic songwriting/chord recognition skills?  This mistakenly-flipped 6 -3 (now 3 - 6) will be messing with my brain 'n fingers tonight.  

[Stokely]

I've had my share of that, and probably been in the other position a time or two as well   Though if I'm wrong I won't dig in my heels about it.

Not necessarily lack of skills but just "doing it wrong" and refusing to consider that it's a problem.  A few times the path of least resistance has been to just change the song when someone won't (or forgets) to budge.  Our drummer for the longest time would play "What I Like About You" with one less bar on the B before the solo...so we just went with it.  Then we'd have a sub drummer, he'd play it correctly and the rest of us were used to playing the wrong version     Then out of the blue our regular drummer started playing it right go figure!   That was just someone forgetting the details so a bit of a different thing.

If the chords are clashing with the vocal lines though something has to give.

The most awkward situations are bad vocal harmonies.  I have a really good ear for harmonies and I can tell easily when something isn't working and what the problem is.  I've been in bands with very "enthusiastic" singers, sometimes too much so (you don't freaking need four part harmony on every song!).   People can take it personally when you stop at practice to point out something that isn't working, no matter how diplomatic you try to be about it.

The most asinine was being at practice and I'm hearing something out of tune.  Band had two guitarists and I knew it was one of them.  They got really angry and defensive when I suggested we check tuning.   I even checked tuning on my Motif to be fair about it.  Song starts, tuning is fine.  Next song, tuning is awful.  3rd song, it's fine.   With no stops to tune anything, WTF?   Turns out the culprit was a @%$ capo that the rhythm guitarist was using on some songs so he could strum big cowboy chords on every song...on a Gibson SG which may not have helped...

[stoken6]

I've rarely won battles like this. If anything, I find it's worth jumping on any mistakes at the first opportunity, so that it doesn't get ingrained.

 

But it does drive me crazy when e.g. somebody plays a natural 9 instead of a #9, or misses the diminished chord, or doesn't play the right rhythm. (Case in point: Bat out of Hell opens with (spoiler alert) it's not two crotchets/quarter notes. We tried it at rehearsal and of course I stopped the playthrough immediately. Cue stares and comments of "can't we just go with it as it is?")

 

The lesson I've learned is never to be "that guy". Come prepared, know your stuff - and be ready to be corrected.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[KuruPrionz]

30 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I've had my share of that, and probably been in the other position a time or two as well   Though if I'm wrong I won't dig in my heels about it.

Not necessarily lack of skills but just "doing it wrong" and refusing to consider that it's a problem.  A few times the path of least resistance has been to just change the song when someone won't (or forgets) to budge.  Our drummer for the longest time would play "What I Like About You" with one less bar on the B before the solo...so we just went with it.  Then we'd have a sub drummer, he'd play it correctly and the rest of us were used to playing the wrong version     Then out of the blue our regular drummer started playing it right go figure!   That was just someone forgetting the details so a bit of a different thing.

If the chords are clashing with the vocal lines though something has to give.

The most awkward situations are bad vocal harmonies.  I have a really good ear for harmonies and I can tell easily when something isn't working and what the problem is.  I've been in bands with very "enthusiastic" singers, sometimes too much so (you don't freaking need four part harmony on every song!).   People can take it personally when you stop at practice to point out something that isn't working, no matter how diplomatic you try to be about it.

The most asinine was being at practice and I'm hearing something out of tune.  Band had two guitarists and I knew it was one of them.  They got really angry and defensive when I suggested we check tuning.   I even checked tuning on my Motif to be fair about it.  Song starts, tuning is fine.  Next song, tuning is awful.  3rd song, it's fine.   With no stops to tune anything, WTF?   Turns out the culprit was a @%$ capo that the rhythm guitarist was using on some songs so he could strum big cowboy chords on every song...on a Gibson SG which may not have helped...

Capo and tall frets (Gibson SG) are never friends. Pressure will always make things sharp, unequal pressure (most capos) will make the sharpness worse. 

 

I always wonder why people get to a certain point and then just stop improving. It's not just guitarists although there are plenty less-than-optimal guitarists to go around. 

Often I think it's that many musicians just don't listen to the song while playing, certainly that can be true of otherwise good drummers and sometimes bassists. Throwing down their "good chops" where a groove would serve things better. 

My fretboard on my main gigger is scalloped, capo is not possible. I don't need one, changing keys on guitar is pretty straightforward - just move your patterns to the appropriate spot and play. I've never seen a bassist use (or need) a capo. And I'll never forget the time that we were playing an event and started in on a song in C, one of the band member's brothers rushed over to the piano and played a great part on that song. He was quite accomplished, in C. No other keys. Weird. 🤔

[PianoMan51]

Sometimes the problem can be me, and the rest of the band doesn’t want to ‘confront’ me.

 

Christmas Dance. Combo group plays twice a year. We finish the first song, which just sounded bad. I ask the bassist to play an E. He does and it’s nearly a half step out. But he doesn’t retune. The rest of the band turns to me and basically says the piano was out of tune, for the entire first song. Hunh?

 

Well, it turns out that I had accidentally nudged the pitch bend wheel while setting up and it hadn’t set back to normal. Eventually rebooted the CP4 and all was good.

 

But I was floored that none of the band members didn’t stop the first song after two bars. I’m interpreting that they were embarrassed to point out the very obvious problem. THIS is a problem in music groups of ‘equals’. How can things get better if we’re afraid to acknowledge and fix problems?

[Steve Nathan]

It's been like 50 years ago, but I used to do what they called "pick up" gigs, where a club owner would call and say "I need a band for Wednesday", and I'd put one together for the night.  I'd start with my top favorite players and work my way down for each spot until I had every seat filled.  At the very bottom of the drummer list was a guy with a decent enough pocket, but he got so over excited when playing fills, he frequently came out of them one beat off.  Suddenly his backbeat was now pounding on the rest of the band's 1 & 3.  He belligerently refused to believe it was him, wouldn't change, and everyone else had to adjust to him.  Sometimes when I got that far down the drummers list, I just called the club owner back and said "Sorry, can't make it". 

[Moonglow]

I joined an established band that does a song where they stop on “vi” instead of on “I”, the latter of which is consistent with the recording. I referenced the discrepancy to the band, but the lead singer was accustomed to stopping on vi, and they had been playing it that way forever, so I backed off. For new songs, I dig in a little harder if there is a chord in question. Fortunately, the guitar player (who I know from other projects) and I have always been able to amicably resolve things.

[Reezekeys]

In this particular case I might be the curmudgeon here but I'll admit to a passive-agressive streak, and with a smallish section of one part of a song the issue, with the wrong person not budging, I'd be inclined to just lay out for those few bars. In my circles we call that "wrong and strong"... let it all hang out!

[Bill H.]

If the guy is also singing the lead, I used to just leave it. For some reason their take would be working for them, and when I'd try to correct them it would often mess up with their vocal delivery - by far the most important thing from an audience perspective. If it's embarrassingly obvious... yeah you've got to do something. But in this case it's a bridge chord. 

[DJkeys]

I cannot work with musicians who refuse to learn a song properly. I recently quit a band because the guitar player didn't really learn any of the material, just would wing it every night on just his ability to hear the changes (many mistakes).  That band also would not work on backing vocals, so the guitarist and bass player would just sing whatever harmony they wanted at the time.  The leader of the band refused to do vocal rehearsals.

 

-dj

[drawback]

I subbed in with a band and eventually got the permanent gig. The guitar player who’d been there for years played at least one tune with the wrong 3rd - flipping his majors and minors - should’ve been obvious when the melody clearly hit the 3rd notes! When I tried to correct him he was adamant he was right. I just caved, let him play his wrong notes while I just avoided the 3rd altogether. But when the guitarist subbed out, the songs got played right. 

[Docbop]

I remember when Roy Hargrove passed away they had a memorial for him at Smalls with many of the regulars playing.    They started asked the regulars to speak and say something or advice Roy had give them.    A few spoke and then they asked Miki the pianist that night to say something, but she declined.   Spike went to everyone else and came back to Miki and said come on what is something Roy told you.   She just look up and says Roy told me  "play the right f#@king changes".   Everyone got a laugh because Roy was known for not pulling punches when offering advice. 

[nadroj]

I’ve been involved in recording with singers who have had potential. They’ve supported big acts, some have even been signed at one point. I’ve helped them write/record songs, and one thing that can frustrate me is the unwillingness to be open to new ideas, or simply be unaware of the concept of tension and release. 
 

They could have a 3 chord song that has a great melody and groove but sounds boring and repetitive - there have been times in a session I’ve suggested “maybe make this chord minor instead just to change it a bit” or “if you put a diminished chord in right here it gives it a little bit of tension and really opens up the chorus”. If you know the genre youre working with you’ll know which non-diatonic chords not to use (the wrong one can date the song by several decades), but even with the “right” ones, some singers just don’t want to budge from their 3 chord structure. I’ve had times where the band and producers have agreed with me, but if the artist said no, that was it. That’s fine in sessions - as a hired gun you know your place.
 

In such cases the end product ends up sounding ok, but in my (ultimately unimportant) opinion ends up lacking that punch that similarly talented songwriters have. But hey, if it’s not my song and I’m just there to help, I’ll do what you say and leave without a word! 

 

In my current band we’ll sometimes learn songs and the singer will come with a totally simplified version. Not intentionally - usually he’s just got it wrong. The band usually say “err, it actually goes here” but he’ll sometimes say “nah we’ll just keep it like this”. If it’s not important…well, we’ll just smirk at each other and get on with it. Again, if it’s a band where its generally established that the singer has the final say, and we all get on super well and put on a good show, the rest of us are happy to grin at each other and simply play away, getting paid the same as if we’d done it “correct”. That happened recently actually. We added a new song in that had several chord sequences, and at rehearsal the singer just played the same two sequences over and over. We made it our own and now it’s one of our best live songs!
 

The most stress free musical environments Ive been in are the ones where there is an understanding that one person is the de facto leader. If everyone else is happy with that and you can still produce good music, I’m happy. If the leader doesn’t like your suggestion, who cares! If it’s not my band playing my music, and I’m still getting paid, the singer can do whatever the hell they want! 

[stoken6]

36 minutes ago, nadroj said:

The most stress free musical environments Ive been in are the ones where there is an understanding that one person is the de facto leader

This bears repeating. I had a little motivational chat with our BL recently to explain: sometimes you need to be a dictator. Otherwise nothing gets decided.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CowboyNQ]

I’ve been in one of my tribute acts for just over 10 years now.  About 2 years ago we had to replace our bassist.

 

The new guy turns up at the first rehearsal with all his songs learned.  However on more than one occasion the rest of us thought he was playing some lines wrong because we’d gotten so used to hearing our old bassist play them incorrectly.  We would go back to the source material and remark “oh yes, it DOES go like that”.

[El Lobo]

Been there, done that, got several t-shirts. Played several gigs and rehearsals with BL/singer/rhythm guitar who got several parts wrong. The rest of us would say how to play it correctly, we'd rehearse it, then at the gig he'd go back to doing it wrong. He got a lot of good musicians to play with him -- for a few times, then they'd quit. Went through drummers, bassists, guitarists, and eventually me on keys and sax. I even heard him complain that one guitarist (a total pro, very experienced, toured, recorded with name acts, etc.) wasn't playing a signature riff correctly. Of course he was, but you couldn't tell the BL anything. After a few gigs and rehearsals with another guitar player that I really got along with – we realized that we were very musically simpatico – I wondered why we kept playing with this BL. My guitarist friend said "because we're gig whores." I realized in that moment he was right. I've always thought about that as a band name – The Gig Whores.

 

Then there was the long-time bassist in my main band who always played his own part on a song that had a signature bass line. When the guitarist tried to get him to play the bass line that was on the record, he didn't do it. Then he quit. His replacement was better.

[David Emm]

As the Chinese proverb goes, "In difficulty, we understand our friends." I came into the loose orbits of a few bands early on, but repeatedly, it became clear that they were just wanking it for social reasons. It had a lot to do with why I was drawn to workstations. I realized how liberating it would be, minus the goobers. 

 

I understand the multi-tracked stress bands can undergo, especially Way Back Then, but I always wondered why a popular band would break up rather than release solo albums. You could get some of the ego & non-band ideas out of your system and come back better prepared to bow to the betterment of the group. Easier said than done, I know, but still better than giving up on a good thing too soon.  

 

If someone in the band said "Hey, Monkey Boy, you're off by a major third," I'd check my signal chain and my ear wax rather than just rhino my way through the song heedlessly. WTH, eh? 🦏💥      

[KuruPrionz]

Just now, David Emm said:

If someone in the band said "Hey, Monkey Boy, you're off by a major third," I'd check my signal chain and my ear wax rather than just rhino my way through the song heedlessly. WTH, eh? 🦏💥      

At that point, some of us might unleash an augminished or demented chord, just because... 😃

[MathOfInsects]

Lots of the guitar-and-vocal folks who often perform solo, and especially those who loop, get to the point where they just sort of agree with themselves that a song goes a certain way. Sometimes it's because they got the chords from a tab site, so they're maybe "accurate" but incomplete. Sometimes it's because they do their own versions to make it easier or more interesting for them. Sometimes it's so they can loop, so there's no bridges or B sections. And often they're just wrong but used to being wrong in that way. So if they add instruments, you just have to be on your toes.

Sometimes a particular change will hurt me in my OCD place and I have to say, "Hey, I think [translation: know with the certainty of 1000 suns] that 3 is major there, not minor." But IMO everyone is better served by just playing it however the person sending the Venmo says or thinks it goes, and even better if you can remember it all for next time. 

But there are some little things that bug me even among corporate bands of hired guns. It doesn't ruin the song but gets to me. The walkdown in "Signed Sealed Delivered" for example. For one thing, it DOESN'T happen going into the chorus. Nearly everyone plays it there anyway. It's way cooler to pedal on the 1 as in the recording, IMO. And for another, the rhythm is different depending where in the song it happens. I can adjust quickly if I hear that one or another of these things won't be happening right, but both of them make me clenchy for some reason.

[jazzpiano88]

7 hours ago, Moonglow said:

I joined an established band that does a song where they stop on “vi” instead of on “I”, the latter of which is consistent with the recording. I referenced the discrepancy to the band, but the lead singer was accustomed to stopping on vi, and they had been playing it that way forever, so I backed off. For new songs, I dig in a little harder if there is a chord in question. Fortunately, the guitar player (who I know from other projects) and I have always been able to amicably resolve things.

 

I can empathize with your case, but then again this whole topic is kind of weird given that historically, covers have taken all forms of simplification, recreation and reharmonization even with the most famous of covers.  Can you imagine,  "Uh, Larry...   (Larry Carton).....  'Knock on Wood' doesn't really go like that.  Here, let me show you the actual chords".     Unless the premise of the band is to emulate the original recording as accurately as possible, I would tend to let things slide.

[Tusker]

Like others, been there done that. I ask myself two questions.
 

The first is, am I upset that they are playing it wrong or is it something larger like “am I discovering something about the band that disappoints me?”

 

The second is, can I live with it? When I think back on some points of contention, today I would interpret the “error” as “our variation on the theme,” which would help me live with it.
 

It’s still a struggle. I feel your pain. 

[Baggypants]

21 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

But I was floored that none of the band members didn’t stop the first song after two bars.

I wouldn't have stopped. People remember a song stopping. Some of the punters may have noticed it being out of tune, but if the rest of the set was good they'd likely have forgotton it. Don't draw attention to it.

[bill5]

But one of many reasons why I compose solo.    

[Moonglow]

22 hours ago, Docbop said:

….She just look up and says Roy told me  "play the right f#@king changes".   Everyone got a laugh because Roy was known for not pulling punches when offering advice. 

I suppose you can get away with that approach if you are a big shooter, but I try to use less threatening/confrontational language. Instead of, “that part you are playing is wrong” or “you’re playing that chord wrong” I opt for “I’m hearing something different for that part” or “here’s what I have for that chord.” Avoiding the personalized “you” goes a long way toward reducing defensiveness when working through these (and other) relational issues.

[CowboyNQ]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:00 PM, MathOfInsects said:

But there are some little things that bug me even among corporate bands of hired guns. It doesn't ruin the song but gets to me. The walkdown in "Signed Sealed Delivered" for example. For one thing, it DOESN'T happen going into the chorus. Nearly everyone plays it there anyway. It's way cooler to pedal on the 1 as in the recording, IMO. And for another, the rhythm is different depending where in the song it happens. I can adjust quickly if I hear that one or another of these things won't be happening right, but both of them make me clenchy for some reason.

 

On this exact subject and also in a personal sweet spot of yours mate, there is a local Pink Floyd tribute here who ALWAYS play the intro to Time incorreclty.

 

The first pulse of the heartbeat/bass drum motif that goes throughout the rototom solo should commence on the "one" of the bar.  But these guys play it on the "four and" of the previous bar.  I'm not exaggerating when I say I find it physically challenging to listen to this, it kind of makes me feel ill.  I'm sure 99% of their punters don't even notice, of course.

 

[Iconoclast]

Today's technology makes it easy to make high quality recordings.

 

That being said, I have run into dudes who couldn't or just wouldn't hear what was going wrong in a song. If nothing else it made me feel better about quitting or firing them, or the other people in the band can realize what was going wrong.

 

I have absolute gigabytes of practice and performance recordings, a lot of it being the same musicians making the same mistake over and over again.

[MathOfInsects]

52 minutes ago, CowboyNQ said:

 

On this exact subject and also in a personal sweet spot of yours mate, there is a local Pink Floyd tribute here who ALWAYS play the intro to Time incorreclty.

 

The first pulse of the heartbeat/bass drum motif that goes throughout the rototom solo should commence on the "one" of the bar.  But these guys play it on the "four and" of the previous bar.  I'm not exaggerating when I say I find it physically challenging to listen to this, it kind of makes me feel ill.  I'm sure 99% of their punters don't even notice, of course.

 

Oof, yeah, that would hurt.

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, CowboyNQ said:

 

On this exact subject and also in a personal sweet spot of yours mate, there is a local Pink Floyd tribute here who ALWAYS play the intro to Time incorreclty.

 

The first pulse of the heartbeat/bass drum motif that goes throughout the rototom solo should commence on the "one" of the bar.  But these guys play it on the "four and" of the previous bar.  I'm not exaggerating when I say I find it physically challenging to listen to this, it kind of makes me feel ill.  I'm sure 99% of their punters don't even notice, of course.

 

My solution to your problem would be to compartmentalize the offense and as a result, place that band into the category of tribute bands who don’t accurately create the songs.   This solves two problems:  1. You don’t get physically ill and 2. Bands are allowed to perform that don’t meet your standards without getting shamed. 

[CowboyNQ]

2 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

My solution to your problem would be to compartmentalize the offense and as a result, place that band into the category of tribute bands who don’t accurately create the songs.   This solves two problems:  1. You don’t get physically ill and 2. Bands are allowed to perform that don’t meet your standards without getting shamed. 

Great suggestion.  I go with the even easier solution of not listening to them.
 

And don’t worry, they’re allowed to perform to any standard they like without getting shamed (by me) as they will happily remain anonymous.

They do market themselves as being super accurate and authentic so the yardstick by which I measure them is one they’ve created.  However as I said above - I doubt most punters would notice the anomaly.

[Bobbo Fett]

14 hours ago, CowboyNQ said:

 

On this exact subject and also in a personal sweet spot of yours mate, there is a local Pink Floyd tribute here who ALWAYS play the intro to Time incorreclty.

 

The first pulse of the heartbeat/bass drum motif that goes throughout the rototom solo should commence on the "one" of the bar.  But these guys play it on the "four and" of the previous bar.  I'm not exaggerating when I say I find it physically challenging to listen to this, it kind of makes me feel ill.  I'm sure 99% of their punters don't even notice, of course.

 

100% don't notice. Even if I'm off by a wee bit, let's say, .000000000001%, that tiny percentage, even if they know something's a bit off, are WAAAAY more concerned with striking up a convo with that hot blonde at the bar, and maybe if they should switch from whiskey to beer to help stretch their financial resources for the rest of the evening.....