Yamaha YC61 keybed issues

[Paul Woodward]

Bought a YC61 this week from its former owner who played it just a few times in its 9 month life. Literally looked and felt like brand new, but the second from top C note seemed looser/noisier than the rest. After just a few hours of continual playing, other keys started to feel different and certainly noisier. The top C and the B below it are really annoying now and I have to play with headphones so the ‘clacking’ sound doesn’t annoy me.

I really love this board and it does everything I need, but I bought it as a players board and the key action and the connection with the sound is what I was looking forward to. Fair to say that I feel very disappointed especially on a board of this price. Surprised to see that it’s the same key design as the MODX with moulded multi key parts hinged on a mounting strip. I expected to see this on a mini synth but not a ‘newly designed’ waterfall keybed.

Any other YC owners having this issue?

[Paul Woodward]

Yamaha don’t transfer warranties but I asked a service centre in the UK what my options are. They acknowledged it is a known issue and have reached out to Yamaha HQ to see if the warranty can be transferred so it can be repaired on this occasion. Fingers crossed they agree otherwise it a repair I need to pay for or the board may just have to go, and that would be a real shame.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

59 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

 

OMG keyboards using what is called a 'live hinge'. Am i correct here. First time ive seen a photo of the keys.

 

I figure the hinge is actually that tounge connected to the screw on rear. A live hinge is generally the plastic itself of the item bending on itself thus creating a hinge. In this case its probably flexing up and down thosands of times without bending. Usually a live hinge will have a bend point and simply relies on thr plastic flexing thousands of times before it snaps 

 

A live hinge is a hinge that can have longevity in a normal situation and is commonly used on many low cost things but on this beautiful keyboard i find it hard to believe its use.

 

It would seem to me that it could give an uneven feel ?

 

Of coarse a live hinge by its nature will eventually 'work harden' and break. But generally live hinges have a long lifespan calculated to the expected lifespan of an item (whats yamahas expected lifespan here)  but what happns if the keyboard is left often in extremes of cold and heat when embrittlement affects the live hinge and its lifespan come to an end quicker than expected.

 

I am not anti live hinges but actually the opposite respecting in their many uses but on an expensive keyboard i find it at the least it is "odd" and at the worst its turned me off these live hinge keyboards in years to come unless it was picked up cheap to "take your chances"

No doubt Yamaha calculated a long life for the hinge so it remains to be seen its longevity

 

I feel your problem may stem from the live hinge flexing irregularly sideways. Something that is probably not fixable hence my guess is they have a newly designed live hinged keysetup to replace anyone who complains. 

 

But then again i could be wrong as im only going by the photo that looks to me like a live hinge arrangement.

 

Like to know more as this keyboard has shifted one peg down on my admiration chart.

[rogs]

I'm surprised to see that the keys on the YC61 are not all independent?

Unlike my MOX6 keybed, where the keys have no lateral movement at all, each key on my YC61 black and white  can be moved laterally, and independently.

They certainly feel like separate keys.

Having said that, they are quite noisy - especially certain black keys. But they don't seem to have deteriorated  in any way functionally over the past 2 + years I've had my YC61.

I had been led to believe that the 'waterfall' keybed for the YC61 was a new specially developed item ?.....  It certainly feels more substantial than my MOX keybed.

Not sure that would survive aggressive 'palm smears' for very long?..... The YC61 feels like it might!

But I do agree it's  quite noisy....

[cassdad]

My Yamaha MOXF8 has the same style keys (“live hinge” as it’s called above), and I’ve complained about the clacking noise for years.  I actually have four (4) of them (MOXF8’s) (for spares at different locations), and eventually they all get the loose key / clackity problem.  I’ve replaced key assemblies, but that does not stop the noise, so I really think the “clackity” noise is originating elsewhere (other than the hinge).  And I’ve lubricated everywhere there is action or 2 pieces touching each other, and still can’t get rid of it.  I’ve searched the internet for a solution, including the Yamaha Motifator site / forum, to no avail.

 

With years of experience with this mechanical action, I can also confirm that “smears” do indeed seem to aggravate the problem.

 

I did take one of my MOXF8’s in to the authorized Yamaha dealer for repair, and they replaced the entire keybed and action (to the tune of some $800), and it was like new again - for a few months.  And then the same problem has returned.

 

Notwithstanding all the noise, they do seem to continue to work.  And since I otherwise like the key feel, and more importantly find the internal sounds and features far more preferable than other brands, I stay with it.

[Paul Woodward]

They are the key sets from the YC61 and the 73 is the same albeit with the lip on the key. MOX is the same, it’s the Montage when they go back to individual keys. Really disappointing and I have noticed increased play on the keys in just a few days, so I’m not confident of its longevity. Hoping Yamaha have some Christmas spirit and fix it. I managed to register on their site and it says warranty until 2024 but I am not the original owner so let’s see…

[Paul Woodward]

And here it is in case you were wondering what it sounds like. Those noisier keys don’t have the same resistance or feel as the others.

[konaboy]

i'm aware of this issue on YC and PSR keyboards. i've talked to a service center about it and the solution is to smear on very thick grease. too little was applied in the factory, or that it has dried out or shifted position. that will stop the clacking. for a while.

 

thanks for sharing the photos of the keys. that doesn't look great. not a particularly long pivot length either.

[Paul Woodward]

Thanks for the replies, and Woody, it was your review that first mentioned this problem developing. I hoped it was just a a rare occurrence and expected a unit bought in January this year might have missed any earlier issues but clearly this one slipped through. I love the board but not sure how long I could live with this noise especially if it worsens. I would hope Yamaha would ignore their warranty transfer rules in this case. It’s clearly within a 2 year warranty regardless of who ‘bought it’ first.

I have the Korg Grandstage 73 and the RH3 keybed is beautiful, consistent and very quiet even after months of heavy playing. I paid half the price for the Korg that I paid for the Yamaha so I really expected better from the YC.

[Paul Woodward]

Oh, and if anyone is curious, go to Syntaur.com and search for the parts for various keyboards. You can see how the keys look. Interesting that the YC has felts for upper and lower keyboard and my ‘upper’ is the worst range. Also interesting that the only individual key is the top C key which, on my YC is probably the noisiest and spongiest of the lot.

[rogs]

54 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

They are the key sets from the YC61 and the 73 is the same albeit with the lip on the key. MOX is the same......

 That's really got me scratching my head? ... The keys in my MOX6 feel very different from the YC61.

 Each YC61 key has independent movement both laterally and  - especially in the case of the black keys - from the vertical.

(Each key can be moved slightly around the vertical axis.)

My MOX6 keys have no movement around the vertical axis at all.

The YC73 and YC88 are weighted keybeds, which will have the traditional 164mm octave length.

The YC61 has Yamaha's 'synth size' keys, which have an octave length of 159mm. 

So a little more difference between the YC61 and YC73 keybeds than just the lip missing I'm thinking?

 

In the case of MOX and MOXF series, the MOX6 and MOXF6 have different width keys from the MOX8 and MOXF8 models.

 

Are the photos in the first post from keys actually removed from a YC61, or simply what someone has said are YC61 keys?

[Paul Woodward]

They are from Syntaurs catalogue of replacement parts. I haven’t opened mine and hope I don’t have to. I find it strange that, in a works where almost everything is documented, I can’t find a photo or image of the inside of a YC. Also strange that there are very few mentions of this in groups or reviews when the service centre say it is a common issue…

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Roger Shore said:

 

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

They are the key sets from the YC61 and the 73 is the same albeit with the lip on the key. MOX is the same...

That's really got me scratching my head? ... The keys in my MOX6 feel very different from the YC61.

 Each YC61 key has independent movement both laterally and  - especially in the case of the black keys - from the vertical.

(Each key can be moved slightly around the vertical axis.)

My MOX6 keys have no movement around the vertical axis at all.

The YC73 and YC88 are weighted keybeds, which will have the traditional 164mm octave length.

The YC61 has Yamaha's 'synth size' keys, which have an octave length of 159mm. 

So a little more difference between the YC61 and YC73 keybeds than just the lip missing I'm thinking?

 

In the case of MOX and MOXF series, the MOX6 and MOXF6 have different width keys from the MOX8 and MOXF8 models.

 

YC61 and YC73 keys are the same from the perspective of grouped vs. individual key assemblies. They are very different in other ways, besides lip... as you say, key length, key width, and weighted using a hammer mechanism.

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

YC61 and YC73 keys are the same from the perspective of grouped vs. individual key assemblies. They are very different in other ways, besides lip... as you say, key length, key width, and weighted using a hammer mechanism.

Sorry, this is what I meant, they use the same ‘living hinge’ which is strange for a 73 key weighted and balanced action on a board of this value.

[rogs]

I'm having trouble convincing myself that the YC61 keys are hinged to a common plastic former?---

I've made a very short video clip:  https://tinyurl.com/YC61-key-noise    where I am deliberately moving a couple of the black keys laterally  - and trying to move them 'off centre' vertically.

 

They all seem quite independent, and make 'metallic'  noises as you hit the side stops.  Not such movement (or sound) is possible with my MOX keys... 

 

As I say, the keys on my YC61 do not seem to be deteriorating in any way, but they are noisier than those on my MOX.

I'm probably going to wait until the warranty expires, and then take a look for myself.

I'm a bit reluctant to have Yamaha dive into the board unnecessarily -- I know who they use for repairs in my part of the UK !   (But that's another story:) )

 

[Jim Alfredson]

How the mighty have fallen.

[Paul Woodward]

You will have to let me know which centre is best then 😉

[rogs]

17 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

You will have to let me know which centre is best then 😉

 I'm afraid I can't really help there -- I've never had to use any of them before! 

I'm not sure whether YC61 comes under synthesizer or digital piano?

It was the latter category that brought up a name from the past, here in the south, who I had had dealings with many years ago.... 

[Paul Woodward]

45 minutes ago, Roger Shore said:

 I'm afraid I can't really help there -- I've never had to use any of them before! 

I'm not sure whether YC61 comes under synthesizer or digital piano?

It was the latter category that brought up a name from the past, here in the south, who I had had dealings with many years ago.... 

looks like my nearest centre would be Norwich but we shall see what they say.

[drawback]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

How the mighty have fallen.

The most disappointing purchase of my life may have been a YC61. Bought it online on faith alone. Had it all of an hour before packing it up and sending it back. I just never expected Yamaha to put out a premium instrument with such entry-level playability.

[Paul Woodward]

43 minutes ago, drawback said:

The most disappointing purchase of my life may have been a YC61. Bought it online on faith alone. Had it all of an hour before packing it up and sending it back. I just never expected Yamaha to put out a premium instrument with such entry-level playability.

I have had a few Yamaha stage pianos from the P100 through to the P250 and, more recently, the CP4 which was a great instrument. I think the YC board, its features and sounds are fantastic to be honest. It integrates with my ipad and allows me to use the audio in to run a second board without a mixer. I even like the keyboard where it’s not noisy or loose, and it compliments the Korg Grandstage RH3 nicely. I was fortunate to buy it shipped overnight with a Nord gig bag for under £1000, but its retail price still implies it would be better quality than it is. If it can be fixed or improved without further cost to me then I will be happy with it…but this is a lesson learnt for buying ‘blind’.

 

[mate stubb]

That's the most hinky key mechanism I've ever seen. 

[ITGITC]

Paul,

 

Thank you for the link to Syntaur.com.  

 

I have a Kurzweil PC2X and may need some parts one day.

 

Excellent post, BTW.

 

Tom

 

[jazzpiano88]

15 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

And here it is in case you were wondering what it sounds like. Those noisier keys don’t have the same resistance or feel as the others.

 

I wonder if the unit has been dropped.  To me, your demonstration indicates that the unit is broken, not that there is a manufacturing defect.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

11 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

I wonder if the unit has been dropped.  To me, your demonstration indicates that the unit is broken, not that there is a manufacturing defect.

 

Good point.

 

What if it was dropped on those upper keys or something loaded frontways onto the keys and those rear screw holes split or broke and the rear holding section is loosened on the screws thus giving some sideways movement or pivoting

 

The live hinge may not be broken just the screw hole area

 

Are you game to pull it apart if yamaha doesnt help you

 

The only thing is as you mentioned its a known reaccuring problem so could it simply be that yamahas own screw system wasnt up to the job. Perhaps simply loosening on their own

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

6 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

Good point.

 

What if it was dropped on those upper keys or something loaded frontways onto the keys and those rear screw holes split or broke and the rear holding section is loosened on the screws thus giving some sideways movement or pivoting

 

The live hinge may not be broken just the screw hole area

 

Are you game to pull it apart if yamaha doesnt help you

 

The only thing is as you mentioned its a known reaccuring problem so could it simply be that yamahas own screw system wasnt up to the job. Perhaps simply loosening on their own

 

 

I am game to open it if Yamaha won’t fix it, but I would also consider selling it on with full transparency depending how much this irritates me. With earphones on, or on a loud stage you can’t hear the problem and it’s not too noticeable when playing normally (not hammering the same key).

To be fair to the seller, he played it twice for a promo and it’s been boxed up for the last 5-6 months, was even running on older firmware. The item is pristine in every respect so I don’t think it has been damaged. It was also in a well padded Nord gig bag as well as original box and wrapping. Manual is still sealed.
The mic on my phone is pretty good so the ‘noise’ sounded louder than it is and looking back at Woody’s video where he revisits the YC after a few months, mine sounds very similar indeed to the problem his brand new model developed in just a few months.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Sounds like an inherent problem perhaps. 

 

Sounds like you're fed up on it if selling is on your mind.

 

But keep us posted if you decide to open it up or you hear of anyone else thats opened theirs up.

[rogs]

+1 on keeping us posted if you do decide to open your YC61 ....

I've only had a provisional look, but it seems like there are lots of star/torx screws - of various sizes - to be removed.

Hopefully I'm wrong and just 'can't see the wood for the trees' as it were...

Maybe it's fairly simple to gain access - if you know which screws to remove?

[Paul Woodward]

Yamaha online have suggested I pass this on to PMT where it was first bought. They say they can arrange warranty if its within its 2 year warranty but didnt address me being the second owner. The service centre have sent their request direct to Yamaha so we will see what PMT and Yamaha decide between them. The original owner is happy to help, it just seems ridiculous sending it back to him for Yamaha to collect, return, ship back to me etc. for the same outcome and I am conscious that he doesn't need all this hassle. At the end of the day, it they acknowledge its a defect, like most manufacturers they should recall it and repair.

[Paul Woodward]

Shame if it does have to go as I am liking the setup.