Semi-OT: Sleep meds when gigs mess with your sleep, or just sleep meds in general.

[Bill H.]

I've been gigging in one form or another for most of my adult life, and as a result have developed insomnia that I more or less have just dealt with. Even after sobriety, the noise and energy of the gig that would keep me wound up long after I got home, which would throw my sleep schedule off by several hours. And if I did more than one night a week (more often than not) it would be hell to switch back. I'd go to bed at 11 and lie in bed awake until finally getting a few hours of sleep. 

 

Recently I injured my back falling on a hike, and while recuperating my insomnia has escalated into the chronic phase. Right now it's really hard to fall asleep no matter how much time I give it. I know gigs are not helping, so last week I quit them all except for a low key Thursday karaoke night. I also cut out caffeine - and boy is that hard, but anyway...

 

Are any of you taking sleep meds? If so what, and how are they working? Just needing some input on something I know nothing about. I know three other seniors like myself (not musicians, but people who have had to deal with trauma) who've taken Ambien or it's generic for years and have been happy with it, but my doctor won't prescribe it - says it's a red line for her. I have another appointment tomorrow. 

[David R]

I have a hard time sleeping on flights. By chance, I flew back from SFO with a friend and she suggested Zzzquil. I took a half dose (one caplet instead of two) and slept like a baby for the entire redeye flight. I’ve always been wary of taking sleep meds but the Zzzquil worked well.

 

Herbal teas help as well. A cup of camomile or rooiboos and I’m out. (I don’t want to break forum protocol but there are some other herbal capsules that I find quite effective as well 😉)

[Bill H.]

Thanks David. All I'm asking for is experience, not recommendations. I hope that doesn't break any forum protocol. 

[jazzpiano88]

Benadryl really helps me.  I like that it is non habit forming with no nasty side effects..  However, I've heard about some recent studies of correlation with Alzheimer's, so that's a little worrisome, but then again it's pretty standard for the scientific research community to confuse correlation with causation and get mislead by find false positives. 

 

The other thing that really helps me is to avoid ruminating on the events of the day and try to focus on a benign or pleasurable activity to turn the brain activity down. 

 

Lastly white noise.  I keep an air purifier fan running and that masks any small disturbing noises.

[Stokely]

I usually have a hard time winding down after gigs.  That said, you mentioned "noise" and indeed my ringing ears were a big reason I couldn't sleep.  Went to in-ear monitors 7-8 years ago and my ears haven't done that since, that has helped a lot.

No sleep meds seem to do much for me.  I end up going out but then waking up after a bit, and then I'm awake and feeling less than great due to the medication.   My problem has always been staying asleep vs getting to sleep.

[JamPro]

I suffer from insomnia for a long time.  Here's what I am doing:

• cut out caffeine - I have stopped drinking coffee mostly.  I only drink tea in the am; no tea after lunch.
• regular exercise - I go outdoors to do exercise for at least one hour every day.  Mostly walking is my exercise, but pushing the lawn mower or raking or snow shovelling also counts.
• No daytime napping - I refuse to sleep during the day, even if I didn't sleep the night before.  I  keep myself awake until it is time to go to bed again. 
• food - a full stomach is sleep-ogenic.  Hence the advise to drink a warm glass of milk before bed.  Food does help me sleep, but also increases my weight and sometimes gives me heartburn when I go to lie down.
• Drugs - sometimes I will take diphenhydramine (Benadryl) at bedtime.  Diphenhydramine is a mild soporific, available OTC and will help bring on sleep.  It stops working as a sleep aid if I take it two nights in a row (works the first night, but not the second).  If I have a cold with congestion, diphenhydramine is a great sleep aid.
• Drugs - Melatonin is a chemical our bodies make so it has a "natural" element to it.  I have tried it but never felt is was helpful for me.  It is available without prescription.
• Drugs - marijuana is a wonderful sleep aid for me.  Two or three puffs on a marijuana cigarette 1-11/2 hours before going to bed and I will almost always sleep straight thru to waking time.  I have no hangover whatsoever.  I get a similar effect by using a 5mg marijuana gummy (edible).  I am an experienced mj users, and I know some complain that mj induces anxiety and is not helpful for sleep.
• Drugs - trazadone.  Trazadone (Desyrel) is a prescription psychiatric med used to treat depression.  It has strong soporific effects.  Trazadone is an effective sleep aid for me but every time I used it I had a very noticeable hang over (feeling spaced out and slightly out of body) the next day that would last the entire day. 
• Drugs - benzodiazapines (valium-like meds).  The benzodiazapines are a class of prescription psychiatric medications used to treat anxiety disorders.  They are all powerful soporifics and used in the military to get soldiers to sleep.  These work very well to force sleep, but are also powerfully addictive.  I have used Temazepam (15mg), had good sleep and no hang-over.  I use it cautiously because of the addictive potential.  If I am taking a short trip somewhere where I know sleep will be difficult, I will ask my doctor for a couple of pills    

[Dave Bryce]

 

14 hours ago, JamPro said:

 

• Drugs - benzodiazapines (valium-like meds).  The benzodiazapines are a class of prescription psychiatric medications used to treat anxiety disorders.  They are all powerful soporifics and used in the military to get soldiers to sleep.  These work very well to force sleep, but are also powerfully addictive.  I have used Temazepam (15mg), had good sleep and no hang-over.  I use it cautiously because of the addictive potential.  If I am taking a short trip somewhere where I know sleep will be difficult, I will ask my doctor for a couple of pills    

 

I also have trouble sleeping, mostly when I can’t shut my brain down.   After a gig is a fine example (2AM, still pumped 😳).  Late night session, business meeting in the evening - that sort of thing.

 

I also use 15 mg Temazapam.  Very helpful for me when I have trouble sleeping - as noted by brother JamPro, good sleep, no hangover.  I take it as needed, and have not had problem with addiction.

 

dB

[Bill H.]

I appreciate everyone's responses! Will research these before tomorrow's appointment.  

 

[Bill H.]

So a question: Does anyone have experience with Zolpidem (Ambien)? I know senior ladies who swear by it, but my assigned provider (a young nurse practitioner) won't prescribe it because (among other things) of sleepwalking and sleep driving. None of these ladies have done that though, and they've taken it for years.

[stillearning]

I love sweets … Ice cream, chocolate chip cookies, etc. But I cut out all sugar about 5-6 hours before I plan on sleeping, which usually means stopping sugar around 6 PM daily.

 

And melatonin works well for me, taken about 1 hour before bedtime if I feel edgy or particularly wound up.

 

Also I avoid napping during the day, and walk/hike or do some kind of cardio almost every day, since I’ve had two heart surgeries now. 

[obxa]

Reading this with great interest.  Lifelong insomniac, and I share your issues.

 

On EST, I used to say it was because I was wired for California time. But when I briefly lived there, it didn't take long for me to have the same issues.  I can easily go days without sleep, but force myself to take something because it's not great to do that after 50.  Wacky road schedules would trigger that for me.   I used to sit in the front of the tour bus and hang with the drivers (partly insomnia, partly because  I could never sleep in those bus beds). 

 I  just went to a Doctor couple weeks ago, because my current sleep was usually no more than 5 hours.  My doc echoed many of the things Jampro said.  But it's also recommended to make sure you don't have any other underlying health issues. 

 

My Doc has me considering going to a Sleep Disorder Specialist- something I didn't know about.   But trying a few things in the meantime that have been working.

 

I've been told consistency is the key- i.e. going to bed and getting up same time.  I set an alarm for going to bed.  But that goes out the window gigging.  Perfect example is Saturday night gigs or shows:  My church gig has me up at  5 a.m. So I take OTC sleeping pill ( doxy family basically antihistamine). That will knock me out cold.  But do have to take a 30 minute power nap after that service if I have another gig  or church service in the evening. 

I 've been taking Melotonin  or Valerian during the week and that helps.   Sleep with an air cleaner, and when in a hotel room I sleep with a white noise app.   My Doc offered to write me a script but I'm holding off for now. 

[Mitch Towne]

I’ve been taking Ambien for 16 years. Works like a charm. 

[Polkahero]

My pharmacist told me that doctors can't prescribe Ambien after a certain age, can't remember what it was though.  I have a px for 10 mg and I cut the pills in half.  I use them very rarely as it's easy to build up a tolerance to it, but when I get home at 2 AM from a gig and have to be on the organ bench the next morning a half pill usually knocks me out within 15 minutes.  Also have a px for Lunesta but that stuff doesn't seem to work as well plus it has a nasty aftertaste.

 

Other natural things I've tried are 5-HTP, Tryptophan, high dose melatonin, lavender essential oil, kava kava, and valerian root.

[Tom Williams]

Noise generator, always.  Most other sounds keep me up.

 

Diphenhydramine HCL (aka Benedryl) is a wonder drug for sleeplessness, runny nose, itchy skin, and nausea.  I'd prefer it over aspirin as a "desert island" medication.

 

Doxylamine Succinate is more reliable for sleep and affects sinuses less, IMO. 

 

And finally, because I have low tolerance for it, alcohol.  Especially if I need to sleep for a short period like 2-3 hours -- the aforementioned pills both take me too long to metabolize if I stayed up until 3 and need to be awake again at 6:30.

[Bill H.]

3 hours ago, Mitch Towne said:

I’ve been taking Ambien for 16 years. Works like a charm. 

Mitch in those 16 years have you built up a tolerance and had to up you dosage? If you don't want to get personal that's ok, but because it's worked reliably for other people I know I'm very curious about it. 

 

Also for those of you who take OTC antihistamines (Zzzzquil, Benedryl, etc.) do any of you have enlarged prostates? Have you been able to... well... pee without pain? That's been my problem with antihistamines whenever I have a cold. I just don't do them anymore. 

 

And once again if I'm getting too personal my apologies - and I'll stop asking questions like this. Just trying to find some answers. 

[bill5]

Beer. I find 4 to 5 glasses work best.   

 

Honestly it seems to me "sleep meds" have become quite tame over the years. You can debate if that's a good or bad thing.

[re Pete]

I only experienced hard time getting to sleep after high energy wedding gigs. Some alcohol to wind down at home.

[xKnuckles]

I used to have trouble getting to sleep. Fear of side effects has kept me away from all sleeping drugs, so I have found alternative solutions to the proplem.

 

As mentioned by someone else, a full stomach is conducive to sleep. Indeed, experimentation with fasting made has showed me in no uncertain terms that sleep is extremely hard to achieve in this state. (Apparently this stems from our stone-age hunter past, where people needed to be alert in order to catch dinner, but then could afford to rest afterwards...)

 

However, my top tip is to try a sleep hypnosis app. They are crazily cheap and you can get them for your phone /ipad or whatever. If you can't sleep, just put on a pair of headphones, lie comfortably, turn on the app and just listen to it. No need to try to sleep. Indeed you are encouraged to try to keep listening - which, after the initial novelty and curiosity wears off  (usually after a few goes with it) - is extremely difficult. The trick is not to demand or even expect sleep, but just to treat yourself to 30 or so lovely minutes without having to think or listen to your own brain. It is extremely effective. Better still, if you wish you can combine the sleep inducing session with something you would like to achieve - like curing stage fright or stopping smoking or whatever. There are loads of hypnosis topics available and they are just as effective if you fall asleep in the middle of the session.

 

 

[ksoper]

On 10/24/2022 at 7:24 PM, Bill H. said:

So a question: Does anyone have experience with Zolpidem (Ambien)? I know senior ladies who swear by it, but my assigned provider (a young nurse practitioner) won't prescribe it because (among other things) of sleepwalking and sleep driving. None of these ladies have done that though, and they've taken it for years.

 

I started on Ambien in 1994 when my dad and grandmother died 8 days apart.  Sleep, when it came, was rough. I stopped after a few months but picked it up again in 1998 when I began to ride a tour bus regularly. The usual 10 mg dose was plenty.  Those who have ridden the bus know what a terrifying experience it can be, particularly when the driver's eyelids got heavy and he'd drift into the rumble strips.  So along with the Ambien was weed and bourbon.

 

Ambien is a hypnotic--it won't mess with any other meds you're taking. It's also out of your system in 4 hours. (You can see the change in the EEG.) So as far as drugs go, it's pretty clean. Addicting, but clean. My wife had to quit taking it. Too many "Ambien Fashion Shows" where everything in the closet would get pulled out and tried on. I was an Ambien eater. Always wanted to write an Ambien cook book. It's how I came up with sprinkling both garlic powder and cayenne pepper on popcorn (excellent) or dumping cheese goldfish into a jar of peanut butter and eating it with a spoon (not as good as I thought it would be).  My wife would come home from work and find the damndest things on the floor next to the bed. One sleep tech I know took Ambien, went in the kitchen and cooked hash browns in an iron skillet. Took the hot skillet in the living room, set it on top of a pile of magazines and ate it, then went to bed. In the morning she found the skillet sitting on the ashes of roughly 4 magazines. She was lucky.

 

As I've aged and developed spondylosis from the base of my skull to my ass crack I have neuropathy in my feet and hands that can cause many sleepless nights. My doc has warned me repeatedly that he's cutting me off Ambien when I turn 65.  He told me that Medicare dings him if he writes for someone on Medicare. (He also said recently that he hasn't written a new script for Ambien in a decade.) He's transitioning me to clonazepam, 2 mg. This puts me down and keeps me down. No issues with the feet or hands. However it does leave me with a bit of a hangover. Not as bad as Benedryl, thankfully. That shit's nasty.

 

As far as the senior ladies who swear by Ambien, it's well known to cause hallucinations in the elderly. That's a hoot in the sleep lab.

[Bill H.]

21 minutes ago, ksoper said:

 

I started on Ambien in 1994 when my dad and grandmother died 8 days apart.  Sleep, when it came, was rough. I stopped after a few months but picked it up again in 1998 when I began to ride a tour bus regularly. The usual 10 mg dose was plenty.  Those who have ridden the bus know what a terrifying experience it can be, particularly when the driver's eyelids got heavy and he'd drift into the rumble strips.  So along with the Ambien was weed and bourbon.

 

Ambien is a hypnotic--it won't mess with any other meds you're taking. It's also out of your system in 4 hours. (You can see the change in the EEG.) So as far as drugs go, it's pretty clean. Addicting, but clean. My wife had to quit taking it. Too many "Ambien Fashion Shows" where everything in the closet would get pulled out and tried on. I was an Ambien eater. Always wanted to write an Ambien cook book. It's how I came up with sprinkling both garlic powder and cayenne pepper on popcorn (excellent) or dumping cheese goldfish into a jar of peanut butter and eating it with a spoon (not as good as I thought it would be).  My wife would come home from work and find the damndest things on the floor next to the bed. One sleep tech I know took Ambien, went in the kitchen and cooked hash browns in an iron skillet. Took the hot skillet in the living room, set it on top of a pile of magazines and ate it, then went to bed. In the morning she found the skillet sitting on the ashes of roughly 4 magazines. She was lucky.

 

As I've aged and developed spondylosis from the base of my skull to my ass crack I have neuropathy in my feet and hands that can cause many sleepless nights. My doc has warned my repeatedly that he's cutting me off Ambien when I turn 65.  He told me that Medicare dings him if he writes for someone on Medicare. (He also said recently that he hasn't written a new script for Ambien in a decade.) He's transitioning me to clonazepam, 2 mg. This puts me down and keeps me down. No issues with the feet or hands. However it does leave me with a bit of a hangover. Not as bad as Benedryl, thankfully. That shit's nasty.

 

As far as the senior ladies who swear by Ambien, it's well known to cause hallucinations in the elderly. That's a hoot in the sleep lab.

Wow ok I guess there really is a danger for that kind of stuff with Ambien. Thanks for the head's up ksoper. 

 

The senior ladies I know who take it... I think they all take 1/2 dose (5mg) and that's enough to work for them. I know both my neighbor and sister's friend take it like that. 

 

I've been sleeping like crap for several nights - only getting two hours last night. After an emergency call to my primary care provider and pleading for help. I've got a 30 day supply of generic Lunesta. Pharmacist said it's a very low dose: 1mg pills. My provider (a nurse practitioner) warned me that she's not renewing it, but has other ideas that we'll discuss during an appointment next week. 

 

She's told me several times that she draws the line at Ambien, and will not ever prescribe it. I didn't know about the senior penalty, but in her case I'm pretty sure it's because of safety concerns. 

 

Sorry about your medical issues ksoper. I hope what you're taking gives you at least some relief. 

[bill5]

I find music helps too (surprise). Classical and New Age are the go-to's. 

[ksoper]

2 hours ago, Bill H. said:

After an emergency call to my primary care provider and pleading for help. I've got a 30 day supply of generic Lunesta.

Lunesta gave me a common side-effect: a metallic taste in my mouth. If it works for you, cool.

[mcgoo]

Wow, really interesting thread. I have 2 related but different problems. I'm a terrible night driver. After the energy and prolonged focus of a gig I have a heck of a time staying awake for a long drive home. Enough so that I've developed what's probably a bad habit of taking a 5hr energy drink right before downbeat so I'll be awake for the ride home (and I never drink on a gig because that'll help make me sleepy). 

 

The other related problem I have is staying asleep. I'm lucky to sleep 5 hrs a night. I don't even set an alarm clock anymore because the chance of me sleeping past 6 am is nil. I usually wake up between 4 and 4:30. So this thread has me thinking I should talk to my doc about sleeping aids. 

[analogika]

For those of you not sleeping through the night: get checked for apnoea. I cannot overstate how much my APAP machine has improved my sleep experience. 
 

Also, at the risk of getting too personal: sexual activity does seem to help winding down and getting to sleep. 

[RABid]

I had brain surgery 5 years ago to remove a huge blood clot. At the time the pressure from the clot bruised my brain. I went through various types of insomnia and finally setting on a situation where my dreams would immediately wake me up. My doctor wanted to prescribe a sleep medication but my insurance would only pay for Ambien. My mother took Ambien and I was well aware of the side effects. I told my doctor that I would not take Ambien and my doctor told me she would never prescribe it. Two family members who are in medical fields recommended Unisom. I take one each night before bed and I am back to dreaming again. I still wake up all through the night and my solution for that is the opposite of what many experts say to do. Experts say turn off all electronic devices and do not depend on noise from sources like TV to help you sleep. I have found that certain shows will knock me right out. I think it gives my mind something to latch onto rather than running wild. My best source of material for me is a subscription to The Great Courses. It is college professors doing series in their field. I watch shows on bird watching, geology, astronomy, etc... I use fire TV as the main host for The Great Courses though you can also use an ipad or iphone. When I wake up I just select the next episode of a series and sometimes I am asleep within 5 seconds. If I watch two episodes without falling asleep I know it is time to get up, no matter what time it is. This morning I got up at 5:00 AM. Most mornings I sleep until 7 or 8.

[JamPro]

White Noise/Radio:  I learned this trick when I lived in NYC, and it seems the person who lived in the apartment above me was always doing gymnastics around 2-3am.  Leave the radio on, turned down low.  This will help block out other noises, distracts me when I am obsessing about "%&*(&^% I'm not sleeping", and now after years of doing it, is a mild sleep aid (these days I need to hear the radio playing softly to fall asleep).  The choice of content is key (for me): lots of music with few ads.  And finding the right volume level takes some experimentation.  Where I live there is a great NPR station that has no ads and all classical music programming.  I sleep well to that.  And when I am not at home, I can use my cell phone to hear the broadcast from that particular station.

 

Meds: There are plenty of meds that will force one to sleep; Ambien, Benzodiazepines (Valium, Clonazepam, Temazepam, etc.).  Here's the thing about using any med to sleep: if you use one of those meds 4-5 nights in a row to sleep, you will then find that you will have difficulty sleeping without the med.  So if I go on a trip for a week, use a Temazepam every night of that trip to sleep, I then have to stop using the med when I return home, and I can expect to not sleep very well those first couple of nights when not using the med.  It is a choice I get to make - I can choose to continue to use the med regularly to force sleep, or I can choose to have poor/no sleep for a few nights in order to avoid the problems of always needing the med to sleep.  So I have a great respect for the power of meds to get me to sleep, AND the power of meds to mess with my sleep.

 

Age:  It is a well-known fact of our human biology; we sleep less as we age.  If you are over age 45 and find that you have difficulty falling or staying asleep, you may be experiencing normal human aging, not a sleep disorder.  This thread  has provided a number of options (both medical and non-medical) to help sleep: try a few and see what works for you.

[Threadslayer]

+1 for Unisom. It allows me to fall asleep and even better, if I wake up in the middle of the night, I can fall right back to sleep - unlike melatonin or Benadryl. I cannot tolerate Ambien and it took a couple of disasters to figure that out.

[cedar]

I've had sleep issues for decades.  I go through cycles.  For weeks, I can be fine.  Then for weeks, I struggle.  My personal issue would be in the category of "trying to turn the brain off," and also anxiety over falling asleep.  And I definitely have trouble winding down after playing music past a certain hour, especially if coming from a lively, stimulating gig.  

 

Through the decades, I've dabbled in most of the things already suggested.  For me, there is nothing to consume that helps consistently over the long term.  There always seems to be a cost/downside.  Some things can leave me groggy the next day, for example.  

 

But my main reason for writing, though, is just to point out that sleep issues  - and these sleep solutions - can change over time.  At one age, alcohol was a great help.  Later, I felt it created a rebound effect, whereby I might fall asleep more easily but then wake up a couple of hours later.  Some people seem to become better sleepers as they get old, but others have the opposite experience.  (My wife used to be able to sleep through concerts and all kinds of loud noises, but now wakes up easily when there is some outside noise.)    

 

The thing that helped me most over time: reduce sleep anxiety by reminding yourself that it's really not that big of a deal to miss a night of sleep.  And it's the truth.  I'm not fazed by one or even two very poor nights in a row.  Makes me feel better remembering that.

[RABid]

It also helps to notice what music or TV shows relax you and induce sleep. Even though I really like the album, Breakfast In America by Supertramp puts me to sleep. Fantasia will also put me under. ESPN is the worst TV channel to try and sleep. Too much dynamic when the announcers get excited. 

[Bif_]

Timely post, been dealing with sleep issues for a few years. (I'm 62.)

 

I do 30 minutes of cardio 5 days a week. I break a hard sweat. Although execise is touted to help, I've not seen that benefit.

 

I have central apnea (like sleep apnea, but my brain doesn't tell me to breath while I sleep). I have a Bipap machine (like a Cpap, but way more complex functionality). It works like a charm, I've used it for around 10 years. I'm accustomed to it and it was life changing for me. Ironically, my sleep doctor was no help on "why can't I sleep better." 

 

Met with my general practitioner for an annual physical. Discussed my sleep issues. She would not prescribe Ambien or Lunesta (or anything in that family of drugs, or anything that could be habit forming). She had no kind words for those, said it could lead to not being able to sleep without them, or worse. She prescribed Doxepin (non-habit forming, helps you stay asleep). It has helped but no magic cure.

 

Some nights I'll wake up many, many times, often lay for what seems like long periods of time. Yet in the morning when I get up, I don't feel groggy or have a headache. Maybe it's just natural ageing. 

 

Regarding most OTC sleep meds, many have diphenhydramine (as do many cold/allergy medications). These worsen BPH (Benign Prostate Disease, or enlarged prostate) symptoms, and can lead to urinary retention. Pseudoephedrine (in many cold meds) affects BPH the same way.