The Comping Thread

[Jose EB5AGV]

Well, it seems this topic is not a beginners one, as I thought, but can be of interest for lots of us, which is great! 👌

 

I can't do lots more than opening this topic, as my experience playing in a band is quite limited (7 months right now) and my technique is still pretty basic. But I want to learn and improve, and so this thread comes to life. Thank you all in advance.

 

Please, share your tips and tricks, videos, ideas, questions... Everything comping is welcomed here! 😃

 

Jose

[Al Quinn]

Jazz great Mulgrew Miller shares some of his thoughts on comping. I think his advice transcends jazz and can be applied to any genre.

 

 

[JamPro]

Good topic.

 

So - as I understand it - my role when comping behind a soloist is to provide accurate harmonic and rhythmic information.  As a basic comping style, I might play on every quarter note (as a jazz guitarist might).  And what I will play will be the basic chrods (sorry chords - jeez, a clam, just like in my comping!) that occur in chord chart where the soloist is soloing.

 

Obviously, things can advance from here - with variations in the rhythm (try leaving out some of those quarter note hits), or  variations in the chord voicing (add the seventh or the ninth or something more adventurous).

 

Now it is permissible to ask the soloist what kind of comping they want behind the solo.  Guitarists seem to prefer long held notes played only when the chord changes.  Vocalists may want a specific note to guide their ear in singing.  Almost everyone I have played with prefers the comping be quiet and sparse - to give them the sonic space to create their solo.

 

So my suggests are to get comfy with that basic comp stlye (more clams!) and open up a discussion with the soloists in your group.

[16251]

I would comp on over to YouTube for a plethora of great content.

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, JamPro said:

the basic chrods

🙂 I know I've played plenty of chords in my time. Mostly the audience don't notice.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Al Quinn]

Nashville session star Matt Rollins gives a lesson on how he voices chords on the piano. The concept is simple to understand and seems easy to play. But Matt also expertly balances the volume of each voice in each chord which makes the music come alive and sound beautiful.

 

 

[ajstan]

Here are some semi-random, general thoughts from my experience/perspective which has been in the Yacht Rock / 70s-80s light rock genre:

 

Processes/Environment

• If you're comping in a band context, you need to fit with the other instruments for rhythms, voicings, and texture so things don't get too busy.
• If your FOH mix has the muddy bass that only higher frequencies can penetrate, your efforts will likely go unnoticed.  I'm fortunate as our FOH sound is clean and open, we have only one guitarist, the bassist has a wonderful, smooth tone, and the drummer is solid and rhythmic and locked in with the bassist.
• I record all of my band's gigs and send out the recordings after each weekend so we can hear how we sound individually and as a group.
• As others have mentioned, I check with the soloist to see what they like/prefer and will try different things until it sounds good.

Concepts

• Every space doesn't need to be filled.  
• Live sound is not like a studio recording, there is far less precision in placement, volume, and EQ of instruments, so design your sounds and play your parts accordingly.
• You may not need as much reverb as you think you do.
• Try to stay within your own frequency range and avoid doubling other instruments.

Tactics

• Since we only have one guitarist, if there's a guitar solo in a song where there are normally two guitars, I will use a piano sound to approximate the rhythm/tone/presence of the second guitar.
• A mellower organ sound can provide texture and warmth without adding bloat and unnecessary additions to the rhythm.
• If it's a longer solo, sometimes adding something to the second half adds interest and energy.
• Much like drummers sometimes switch from the hi-hat to the ride cymbal, you can explore adding sustain, adding some additional rhythmic elements, playing in a higher voicing or octave, turning on the leslie if playing organ, but recording what you're doing is important because it might sound good to you, but not be great for FOH.

 

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

Nashville session star Matt Rollins gives a lesson on how he voices chords on the piano. The concept is simple to understand and seems easy to play. But Matt also expertly balances the volume of each voice in each chord which makes the music come alive and sound beautiful.

 

 

Thanks for posting that. I agree, his touch and melodic instincts make this really soar. 

[timwat]

I've thought a little about this over the years, as like many I've straddled the fence between jazz and non-jazz genres.

 

There is overlap in basic concepts, and a lot that won't apply well in pop and other genres (I think Jose had earlier mentioned he's playing in a pop band - please correct me if that's not accurate).

 

Generally, I agree Job 1 is to support the soloist tell their story. Support can cover a lot of things - providing harmonic "markers" where you're all at in the changes, continuing the rhythmic support of the tune and hits, helping build the dynamic tension to give the soloist the release / conclusion good soloists build towards, and more.

 

But different genres call for different things in the practical specifics. Comping a rock guitar solo is not the same as '70s pop, which is way different than '80s pop, than R&B, than...you get the point.

 

To get a sense of any genre, I might suggest spending time soaking one's ears in what keyboard players in those genres actually play. As an example, consider what Jonathan Cain chose to play on Union Jacks compared to what he played on Frontiers (Babys and Journey, respectively). Or, what Roy Bittan played on the Born to Run record vs. Making Movies (Springsteen and Dire Straits, respectively...a good lesson in rock piano back in the day).

 

In more improvisational settings (often, funk, R&B, fusion), there is more freedom to engage in more musical conversation with the soloist - responding in some direct fashion in the moment to what the soloist is saying (not necessarily mimic or repeat of phrases, which can work in very very small doses but is generally more like a touch of garlic, not a steady diet), but more like you'd respond in a natural conversation ("yeah, that's right" or "Huh...you don't say?" or "Did that really happen to you?"). But often that introduces a immediate rhythmic variety and use of negative space that can suggest "hey let's play some jazz" in ways that are musically inappropriate / unwise in a rock, pop or more structured setting. It's like when a jazzer sits in with a rock band, and it come off like Spinal Tap Mark 2 with the puppet show our bass player wrote this.

 

For a lot of us, it comes down to respecting the music by staying true to the genre. And that requires spending enough time listening, soaking ones' ears, learning the idiomatic vocabulary, and loving the music. I still love the Elton and Billy Joel and Beatles I heard as a kid...so I respect the music by playing it as best and as true as I can when I'm called to play it. Same with the prog and the hard rock and the blues I heard and loved, when I'm called to play those genres. 

 

It's been much much harder with jazz. I started late, I'm a slow learner and I'm not that talented. But I remember years ago an older first-call player told me before a gig I had no right to be playing on, "relax, everyone on the bandstand already knows where you're at on your journey, they heard it during soundcheck. They're all fine with you playing the gig. Just respect the music and do your best. The only time they'll get dark on you is if they feel you're disrespecting the music".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

21 minutes ago, timwat said:

To get a sense of any genre, I might suggest spending time soaking one's ears in what keyboard players in those genres actually play. As an example, consider what Jonathan Cain chose to play on Union Jacks compared to what he played on Frontiers (Babys and Journey, respectively). Or, what Roy Bittan played on the Born to Run record vs. Making Movies (Springsteen and Dire Straits, respectively...a good lesson in rock piano back in the day).

Just to slightly color this, I also usually add the caveat that what we hear on recordings has the benefit of an engineer's fingers and producer's decisions. So there are times where if you literally copped what the player was doing (which likely happened before the solo was even a glimmer in the guitarist's groupie-encrusted eye), you'd be overplaying live. I usually just say to think of comping behind solos and singers as "laying down the bed" for what they're doing. This means getting TF out of the way without sogging down the groove. That can imply (as you say) a range of approaches, depending on the song and context. It doesn't mean underplaying, if the groove needs you. But it definitely means not to overplay.

The other element I'd toss out is the reminder that left to its own devices, a keyboard is essentially a second singer. You have to be careful to keep that singer locked away in the basement while there is already someone singing the song, either literally or through a solo. 

 

Of course I mean that figuratively. I would never keep an actual singer locked in my basement, as far as anyone here knows.

[timwat]

5 minutes ago, MaskOfInsects said:

I would never keep an actual singer locked in my basement, as far as anyone here knows.

 

I spent time locked up in the basement of a few fetching young singers, serving as a toy for their private entertainment. But I give because I'm a giver.

[Docbop]

I would say a important key to comping behind someone is to talk to them before or after and get get feedback.   Some like people to go with them on the harmony they are implying.   Some want you to keep to the basic changes and let them go out and back.    As I heard one sax player say if you follow my out stuff then you are now turning to in stuff. 

 

Last in an interview Sonny Rollins was asked why he used guitar players a lot instead of piano.   Sonny said piano is too big of an instrument and can step on everyone's toes.    So just because all that range you don't have to use it and sometimes just laying out behind the soloist is the better choice, which gets back to my first thing talk to who you're backing up ask what they like.   

[timwat]

I found Jose's original post about his first gig, where he noted:

 

"We will play pop/rock, about 60% covers (80s-00s) and the rest songs composed by the group (all before I arrived in March)"

 

- so for his sake, I'm trying to keep this in mind when we discuss comping. In that sense, some of the comments I might make here won't directly apply because of the genre focus (as I noted above).

 

But there's a lot to learn from the masters on this - one recording I'd commend to Jose (not the least of which because of where he's playing) is Chick's playing on the original studio recording of Spain from Light as a Feather. Not only his monumental solo (5:15 - 6:58), but his comping for Joe Farrell (2:48 - 4:35) and Stanley (7:39 - 8:35). It doesn't get much better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[timwat]

Or Herbie's comp for Lee Morgan and Hank Mobley on the gorgeous Ceora (2:01 - 4:05):

 

 

 

 

[timwat]

Or Gerald Clayton behind Roy Hargrove on this live take of Strasbourg (4:03 - 7:31),and then for Justin Robinson (after letting it drop back down, (7:32 - 11:16):

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

25 minutes ago, timwat said:

I found Jose's original post about his first gig, where he noted:

 

"We will play pop/rock, about 60% covers (80s-00s) and the rest songs composed by the group (all before I arrived in March)"

 

- so for his sake, I'm trying to keep this in mind when we discuss comping. In that sense, some of the comments I might make here won't directly apply because of the genre focus (as I noted above).

 

But there's a lot to learn from the masters on this - one recording I'd commend to Jose (not the least of which because of where he's playing) is Chick's playing on the original studio recording of Spain from Light as a Feather. Not only his monumental solo (5:15 - 6:58), but his comping for Joe Farrell (2:48 - 4:35) and Stanley (7:39 - 8:35). It doesn't get much better.

 

Please, don't limit the conversation just to what I use to play (thanks for looking for that!)

 

I think this thread should cover as much comping ground as people wants to contribute. All and everything is interesting and can help other people.

 

Thank you all!

 

Jose

[Outkaster]

Play Reggae or Salsa. If you can do that a lot is easier. 

[David R]

Listen to drummers. A right-handed drummer is very similar to a pianist in that their right hand is improvising or stating time (melody) on the ride cymbal or hi-hat and their left hand is comping on the snare. Find any jazz snare drum comping etudes (Ted Reed’s Syncopation is a good start) and play them in your left hand.

 

Also, listen to how pianists and drummers comp together without stepping on each other. Wynton Kelly & Philly Joe Jones or Jimmy Cobb; Barry Harris & Billy Higgins on Lee Morgan’s Sidewinder; Herbie & Mike Clark behind Bennie Maupin in Headhunters; Art Neville & Zigaboo in the Meters.

 

On a note choice element of comping, the best advice I ever got was from master Montreal accompanist Wray Downes - leave a third around the melody. In other words, the top note of your voicing should be a third below or at least a third above the melody, to stay well out of the way of the singer or soloist. 

[niacin]

The best advice I’ve had is to listen to singers who also play piano or Hammond: Aretha Franklin, Nina Simone, Harry Connick Jr, Diana Krall, Elton Hohn, Billy Joel, Gregg Rolie, Allen Toussaint, Dr John, Stevie Wonder, Billy Preston, et al.

 

And as mentioned it varies from genre to genre, Chicago blues pianists tend to be going hammer and tongs behind a guitar solo cause that’s what works in that context but you wouldn’t do that in most settings.

[The Real MC]

When I comp on Hammond, I'm a drawbar artist.  The 5-1/3 drawbar almost always gets pushed in while comping.  All kinds of comping tones behind those drawbars.

[Al Quinn]

Masterful solo piano comping by Chuck Leavell

 

 

[Al Quinn]

Richard Tee comping greatness

 

 

[Doerfler]

18 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

Masterful solo piano comping by Chuck Leavell 

 

that was fn amazing. 

[Dave Ferris]

I was highly influenced by Chick's comping. Also Herbie from the 60s and Horace Silver. I never studied comping specifically say as written rhythms in a book, I just had a lot of experience playing with different musicians, groups, in different genres, contexts, over the five decades and REALLY listening. I don't even think I could teach or recommend a method to someone on how to comp, it was always just intuitive for me.

 

The only recommendation I might give is ALWAYS state the time. Don't be ambiguous, unsure or unclear. You have to have confidence in your time feel that when you're comping, or laying it down in any genre, that THIS is where it is. Recording yourself on gigs helps. I had multiple funky Walkmans that I wore the switches out on.

 

Playing with great  drummers and bass players is imperative. If there's any time discrepancy, or one weak link, everything's out the window. Plus you have to be a team player first with the concept, or mindset,  that you want to make "the whole" better. Egos normally don't go hand in hand with good comping and being essentially a supportive accompanist. If everyone in the group isn't on the same page - listening to each other, aware of ensemble balance and trying to support each other- it's a lost cause. Doesn't matter wtf you play.

 

It's harder to develop today in all facets with less live playing opportunities. I give it to younger kids that can get their sh!t together today, they're really up against it.

[Theo Verelst]

I think to play tight rhythm for keyboardists may take a decade of practice and forms of feedback. Until you're trained to play strict rhythms, the drummer sets the rhythm, and you don't carry others in the band like the preferred keyboardist role is. A jazz solo+comping can be exciting to listen to, when advanced Jazz players do it right, but usually is very far into the "no go" area as in learn to solo short and clear, don't clutter the mix, etc. , for everybody else.

 

Comping, unless you do lounge piano or something usually means accompaniment, so the singers or leads of the music are supported and given a clean musical carpet to work on. Even for relatively "simple" pop, that's arguably difficult, so non-beginner pianists may well find it hard as well, not just for ego reasons.

 

Than, inevitably, there's the *sound*. Now, no sound is going to replace playing accurateness, so could better be a very good and steady player comping on an old barrel of a piano than doing your beginners thing on R. Tee's setup that just before has cut a historic record. But as any normal organ player, or rhythm guitarist, for that matter, knows: you need a decent tone and a fitting proper musical sound to play on. For comping, most digital instruments suck, IMO, so it could pay to practice with a real piano or electronic (not so much digital) organ, using a drum computer or track to get the rhythms by practice.

 

Theo V

 

[cphollis]

I found that -- when comping -- listening perspective matters. 

 

When I am mostly focused on what I am personally playing (and thereby not listening as much to what's going on elsewhere), I don't like the way I sound when I listen to it later.  Basically, I suck.

 

Conversely, taking an audience listening perspective -- listening closely as to how do the keys support and interact with other lead lines -- always leads to better and more pleasing results.  

 

For me, better comping is less about technical skill, more about mindset.

[stoken6]

A lot of my comping includes "play nothing". Particularly in verse 3 after the middle 8. I tend to encourage others in the band to come down or drop out completely at times, to get some dynamics happening across the arc of the song. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[marino]

Excellent advice from everybody. Let me add something about instructional material:

 

I remember to have studied, many years ago, a book called "The Art of Comping" by Jim McNeely. It deals with jazz comping in a group context, but generally speaking, it just shows lots of different ideas for voicings, rhythms and interaction with the soloist, which can be applied, with modifications, to other genres. It comes with an audio cd to play along with. You have to have your jazz together in order to really use the audio, though.

Also, I remember to have studied - maybe "devoured" is a better term - an instructional column by Chick Corea on Contemporary Keyboard magazine, which was exactly about jazz comping. Just one page. In a few lines with musical examples, he put so many useful ideas on the table, I tried immediately to apply those principles to my playing, and I still remember them vivdly. It was explained in a beautifully simple way - my hat is off to Chick for being such a great communicator other than the genius musician that we all know.

 

[SonicKeysII]

A drummer who I worked with for years and who is an accomplished pianist, introduced me to playing paradiddles and other drum patterns on my keyboards.  The techniques helped me with my comping.   I recommend it.  Frankly, having a great rhythm section and a singer who you can work with really helps.  Accompanying a really talented singer who sings behind the beat and takes the band down some surprising paths is the hardest to accompany if you don't have a great sense of rhythm.  You have to be paying attention in any event.  And then there are singers who cannot count or cannot find the melody and your job is to cover for them or help them out as best as you can by giving them cues which work in the moment.  Every once in a while, I would play a ballad where I was totally in sync with the singer and the rhythm section, sometimes interweaving fills, sometimes playing straight block chords and sometimes mixing it up as appropriate for the song.  It was pure joy.   Listen to Bill Evans or Chic Corea. They were both masters.  I used to listen to Monty Alexander's piano trio live and I loved the way the trio played together.   I saw Dave Brubeck play with Joe Pass live.   They played well in the sandbox and it was a pure pleasure listening to them.  Joe Pass had to essentially reinvent his unparalleled playing style to work with Bruebeck and he did so effortlessly.  Some guitar players and piano players trip over each other.  It takes a lot of listening and discipline to work together as a cohesive unit.  A guitar player friend who has his own jazz group will not play with a piano player because he feels the piano player gets in the way.  He wants to comp freely and without thinking about what the piano player is doing or wants to do.  I guess that is why there are piano based trios.  In that context, the piano player is free to comp without worrying about what the guitar player is doing.  I have played in rock bands with three guitar players which can be a challenge at times.  That is why they invented the Hammond organ.  In that context, laying down pads on the organ may be the best strategy other than unplugging the guitar players' amps or asking them to sit out a tune.  if you play in a band where one member constantly overplays and doesn't listen to what other band members are doing, it is a drag.  Avoid those situations or do the best you can in spite of them.  Less is sometimes more.     

[CEB]

“A piano is a collection of 88 drums. “  - Terry Adams