SonicKeysII

I like the VR-09 Hammond and Leslie sound on the VR-09 better than the YC for the kind of rock stuff I am doing. In addition, the YC does not have a solo violin which I need for fiddle type playing. The VR-09 has an excellent solo violin which does country well. It cuts through the mix like a knife. The VR-09 also has a great harmonica which is very realistic. The VR-09 has a bunch of sounds that the YC does not have. I still don't understand the thinking of Yamaha. It will give you tons of sounds on the MX61 series which are usable and only a limited number of sounds on the YC and CK which are supposed to be better and newer boards. My 20 year old Yamaha PSR 2100 which sits in my bedroom/office has better and more varied sounds. (The Genos derived sounds are sometimes excellent). Because of the actions, both the YC61 and VR-09 stink for playing acoustic piano. I address that by playing an 88 key weighted action bottom board. Yes, I could midi my YC to my bottom board but that is besides the point. Yes, I have done that at home. I am not a fan of using an Ipad live, having had some bad experiences with it such as shutting down in the hot sun at a farmers market gig or crapping out in the middle of a song at a bar gig. I want a single top board with no add ons which has a lot of flexibility and is easy to use. I apologize for going off topic.

I thought of buying the RD88 when it was on sale for about$1,000 but I was intimidated by its complicated menu driven OS and punted. I am still using my Casio Privia PXS-560 as a bottom board with a Roland VR-09 on top. My boards are dated but I am not seeing anything that floats my boat enough to run out and buy a new board. What I have works. Most of the 73 key weighted boards are compromises in terms of action. Yamaha did a shortened board in the P121, but it only has a few sounds. The Yamaha YC and CK boards don't have enough good sounds even though the bread and butter sounds are pretty good. (I own a YC board which I barely play--the VR-09 is a better top board IMHO). I will only be interested in the new RD board if it is easier to use than its predecessor and still has a wide variety of decent sounds. The computer integration is mostly meaningless to me. Frankly, I was hoping that Roland would improve upon the RD88 and its seems as if it is going backwards or going in a different direction. I would have to play the board to make any kind of final judgment. I would only buy the board if it met my requirements without having to pay for all of the add ons. I like to plug and play.

I find your comments interesting. I have a VR-09, Roland FA-06 and a Yamaha YC61. I never got on with the FA-06 live and have hardly ever used it even though on paper it is a decent baord. I love the VR-09. Originally, I thought it was a toy but it isn't. Bought the Yamaha YC61 to replace it and the VR-09 still gets top billing for Hammond organ clone duties and a lot of other sounds. As a top board, my VR-09 beats the YC61 for my purposes. Hence, the YC61 sits mostly in the basement. I thought of getting a Fantom 06 and you are suggesting sort of that I stick with what I have in the VR-09, at least from the Hammond organ clone perspective. I play strictly in mono with my band. The Leslie isn't perfect on the VR-09, but overall I like it.

Casio has never explained what the problem was or how they resolved it. It was resolved, in its mind, by the software driven fix, and did not feel the need to tell us what went wrong and why. The PR campaign which followed was to explain it away as a nothing problem and that we should not worry. As you have explained and I have felt, relying on the fix still left uncertainty. I have played and used the PX-560 and have never had a problem with "no mediia." I have played and owned various other Casio boards and again have never experienced the "no media" problem. I happen to like Casio boards and they have performed well for me. Casio's manner of resolution regarding the PX-5S left me with a sour taste in my mouth. The problem, based solely on my experience of owning and playing about six Casio boards, is that it is limited to the PX-5S. It may be further limited to a limited number of PX-5S boards. It was never clear how widespread the problem was and what they did to contain the problem. If Casio ever fessed up and told us what went wrong and why it would never happen again, it wouldn't be having these discussions on this board at this late date. The PX-5S is still a very good board, even with its ridiculous OS. (It is a better pro board than the PX-560 IMHO). Casio should have combined the best of the PX-560 and the PX-5S in the guise of a new board and it would have had a lot of takers, deflecting away from the "no media" problem. Instead, it did nothing for over a decade. It then went into the business of selling small and light keyboards designed for the living room in your home or non-professional use. Everything it did was a business decision--right or wrong. I recently bought one of their small and light weight boards, i.e., the CTS-500, and brought it to a impromptu jam at a family gathering and had a ball. It weighed about 5 pounds and could be picked up easily with one hand. Its action for piano was pretty good for a small lightweight board. No, the PXS-7000 is not a replacement for the PX-5S. Casio knows that. As for me, i have moved on from Casio for now with the exception of the CTS-500 and am looking forward to NAMM. I am hoping that there will be some interesting new boards out there, including, from Casio. In summary, I personally don't think you have to worry about the "no media" problem from Casio at this point based on my personal experience.

Thanks. i spoke to a friend who builds custom powered cabinets. He says "gain is gain" and use the mic switch option and turn down the sound on the synth. (This is where I eat my own words). I am hopeful that i can work with the Alto after playing around. On that note, I was hoping to buy a pair. A lot of people on this site like the 308s and that is what got me interested in the first place. Thanks again for the education. I appreciate it.

Ok. I admit it. I am more confused than ever. In my simplistic world, the trim knob at the top of any mixer channel, helps increase the gain or so I believe. If that feature is missing from a powered monitor and the output coming from the keyboard is low by the design of the keyboard, that is the problem as I see it. I view the knobs on the back of the 408 as volume controls and nothing else. I am guessing that my Alto 408 or a pair if I buy a second one will have plenty of volume if I run them through a mixer and the keyboard gain is increased by playing with the trim knobs at the top of the mixer. In this example, the keyboard would go to the mixer first and then out to the speakers. The gain staging would take place at the mixer level and the speakers would receive a hotter signal and produce more volume without having to trip the mic switch. In this example, the mixer would send signals to both the monitors and the FOH. There could be secondary gain staging at the FOH level but it might be unnecessary. As an added benefit, if I ran a mic through the mixer, the quality of the mic pre-amps might be better quality than the ones used on the Alto. Don't know. Your work around is to flip the mic switch and be done with it. I hear you. Need to spend more time playing with it and see what works in my mind. When playing piano, I like a very clean sound. In my one try at doing this under stressful playing out conditions with no time to do a dress rehearsal on a new piece of gear, I did not like what I heard and went to plan B. When I did not flip the mic switch on, I had to turn the volume up full throttle and that was not sufficient. In addition, I have learned never to turn up an amp past 2 o'clock ever. When I tried playing around with the mic switch, the sound was not clean. Of course, I was given an hour to set up and play with a horn band and did not have sufficient time to really fool around with it. The soundman, who is a friend, offered me a simple solution and I took it with little time to spare. He was busy trying to get everyone set up and working properly. Once I have time, I will experiment and see what works. In the meantime, I am waiting for NAMM in January to see what new stuff comes out. By then, hopefully I will understand more about what I am doing right or wrong. I don't want to spend a lot of money on new gear that does not work or play well in the sandbox with my other gear. If it is me, that is one thing. If it is the gear, that is another.

The Alto 408 does not have a trim control. Maybe, if it did, I would have found the sweet spot as you have suggested. I am still not a fan of using the mic on switch even though I might be wrong in that regard. As for mixers, I have several sitting in my basement. They are just another piece of gear I am looking to avoid taking to the gig. I used to bring my Allen & Heath mixer to the gig and it is excellent but big and heavy. I would rather leave it in my basement. The funny thing is that my Roland VR-09 has a gain knob in addition to a volume control which can substantially boast the gain as well as the volume when necessary without any noticeable clipping. And if I want to intentionally overdrive it for rock organ, it works like a charm. Thank you for the education on the electronics. It is helpful.

Your reality and mine are different. I will play around with my Alto speaker and see if I can get better results as you have. Actually, I hope I can. If I have to significantly lower the volume on my synth to adjust for the boast from the mic position into the 408, that might cause problems with not enough volume going to the FOH. Don't know. Just bought the speaker and it did not serve its purpose on its first gig. But I bought it 24 hours before the gig and did not have time to play with it at all. My solution was to abandon it completely when I was offered a solution from the soundman. I occasionally look for help on this forum when I am having a problem I cannot solve on my own. I appreciate your comments. They are helpful. Yes, I can blast my Yamaha DXR 10s without a mixer. Cannot say the same about my Alto 408. Personally, I was trained to never use a mic switch on a keyboard and apparently you are saying I am dead wrong. Live and learn. I played a Fender Rhodes in the seventies and ealry eighties. When I played out, I used two Leslie cabinets designed for electric piano which by themselves did not cut it. (These were not the traditional Leslie cabinets for organs). I hired an music equipment/electronics firm to build a custom Fagen-like pre-amp into the system and also added a Morley pedal to boast the sound and do other things. It was tricky, but in the right room, the Rhodes sounded pretty sweet. I got a lot of compliments. The set-up required smart gain staging depending on the room. We worked constantly, so I had plenty of time to figure out my gear. This was back in the day when keyboard players brought their own amps and did not tie into the mains. The monitors were for vocals although there was enough bleed through from the sound coming from the stage that everything could be heard. I have used side mixers many times. Trying to avoid that. Today, I do not rely on my monitor to serve as the sound going out to the crowd. I always tie into the FOH with a passive DI box. First, I want to preserve my hearing and second I believe that keys need to run through the mains to be adequately heard in the mix. I need a monitor which is loud enough to compete with the stage volume which varies depending on the drummer and the guitar player more than anything else. There is nothing worse than having a guitar player's amp positioned too close to you when you literally cannot hear your monitor. Been there. Done that. Not a lot of fun. The best solution is to go in ears all the time. You hear everything better at a much lower volume. With that solution, you toss your monitors in your basement to collect dust. In the meantime, I am still searching for the holy grail in a good monitor which is light and small and projects adequately for my needs without the need for a side mixer. I will eat my words if I can tame the 408 as you have suggested. Thanks again for the feedback. I sincerely appreciate it.

Thanks Scott. From reading another thread regarding the new Yamaha CK synths, other players were complaining about the lack of gain coming from the boards and a few people offer a simple solution, that being the board can internally be changed to increase the output by flicking the correct switch. One of users specifically told us how to do it on that board. Based on my common sense, if you have to turn the powered speaker all the way up, something is wrong. On the flip side, based on my common sense, using a mic switch on the back of a powered speaker to increase gain is not a great idea. It is a great way to overload the system and the sound is not clean. Maybe my common sense is wrong, but i don't think so. Do you have an opinion on the subject? Can you use a direct box to increase the gain? Or, if your board doesn't have the facility to increase the gain at the board level and you are not using a mixer, you are probably not going to be happy with using a powered speaker which doesn't have a typical trim or gain knob found on every mixer which is completely variable. Obviouly, if I am using a direct box and sending my signal to the FOH board, the gain staging can take place at that level assuming the soundman is aware of the issue. But if my monitor is routed directly off of my board and not back from the FOH, it may lack volume unless I use a side mixer which is a pain in the ass. Also, in one of my side bands which uses In Ear monitoring, the guy running sound does not want me to use a side mixer. He wants all levels adjusted at the FOH and the monitor mixes can be adjusted on the returns. We have one of those systems where every IPad works as a custom submixer. it is pretty sweet but then again I have no idea what is going out to the crowd. When we have a soundman out in the crowd, it is ideal. I am prepared to spring for the latest and greatest from QVC in an eight inch powered monitor. I may buy it and have the same issues that I have with my new Alto 408. Maybe, I just stop complaining and use a side mixer and play with the gain at that level. Or keeping using my Behringer which works perfectly for its intended purpose except when I need to play bass and it can't handle it properly. My overall goal is to go for small and light these days.

It is possible I could have played with the keyboard and made the 408 work with the mic position "on." Frankly, I thought it sounded terrible and was offered a simple solution of using a QSC monitor on the spot by the sound guy. I do not understand why a powered speaker rated at 1,000 watts cannot produce even close to the same level of volume as a little Behringer hot spot. I never turn up my other powered speakers very much. I use Yamaha DXR 10s with pretty good results. Maybe, I was just disappointed with the 408 and that is my problem. I was being cheap when I bought it. Probably, I should have reached into my wallet and bought the QSC 8 inch version of the same speaker for more than double the money. I will try the speaker with a small mixer and see what kind of results I can get. As a stand alone powered monitor, I am not currently a fan. I, for one, don't think goosing the gain in the mic position for a line level keyboard is necessarily a great thing to do. Don't claim to be an expert here.

I recently bought an Alto 408 to use as a monitor for my Casio PX-560 and/or Yamaha P125, plugging either board directly into the powered speaker. The Alto 408 did not have enough gain without running it through a mixer. When I flipped the microphone swith, it had too much gain and that really wasn't a solution. I brought the Alto 408 to a gig with a 10 piece band and ultimately abandoned it and used the QSC monitor supplied by the soundman. In contradistinction, I use a little Behringer hot spot monitor in practice with my regular band without a mixer and it is loud. I am currently running a Roland VR-09 and a Yamaha P125 through the Behringer on separate inputs without a monitor. Our bass player complained it was too loud in practice last night. On the other hand, the Behringer cannot handle bass that well and it has its own limitations. I have seen discussions on this board about the fact that some keyboards are "hotter" than others and some keyboards allow you to up the gain before the signal goes to the board. On that note, a simple solution is to use a mixer with gain controls on each input with a speaker or speakers like the Alto 408. That sometimes is just inconvenient. Yes, I have a wall of mixers in my basement. I don't like to take them out of my basement. Assuming I am looking for a powered monitor which does not suffer from lack of gain and don't want to use a mixer, what are your suggestions? Which powered monitors have gain control options or cut through the mix like a knife similar to the Behringer but have better sound, including bass? Thanks.

I bought the Yamaha SC-DE88. It is fairly light and does not offer a lot of protection for the board. On the other hand, it fits in my back seat. i carry my own boards and for my purposes, I think it is fine. It has more padding than my Privia case which is lighter and more compact. The heavier duty cases tend to be bigger and heavier.

I ended up buying the CK88, even after my initial concerns over its keybed. Judgment call. My Roland VR09 has a better violin sound for country fiddle and my Privia PXS 560 has better banjo sounds. It matters for both of my bands. My VR09 is probably a better board for Hammond organ and better as a top board IMO. The synths, pianos and electric pianos on the CK88 are very good and justify the purchase. I purchased the Yamaha case and it fits across my backseat with just enough room. I doubt I will be able to squeeze this board into the back of my SUV without folding the seat down which I am able to do with my Privia board and my Yamaha P125. We will see. Now I know why Casio makes its boards so narrow. It facilitates loading them in and out of a small SUV. It is more than a gimmick.

Perhaps, a Modx8+ on the bottom and the CK61 on the top would be a great new setup. You get to mix an overly complex board with great sounds on the bottom with a simple practical light weight board on the top with drawbars where you can integrate an IPad Hammond clone.