Key Largo Question

[kwyn]

If you put stereo inputs into the key largo and only use the left xlr out to the mains, does the key largo sum to mono or does it only send the left side of the stereo signal, giving FoH only half?

[ElmerJFudd]

38 minutes ago, kwyn said:

If you put stereo inputs into the key largo and only use the left xlr out to the mains, does the key largo sum to mono or does it only send the left side of the stereo signal, giving FoH only half?

No, L is L and R is R.  If you have to send FOH only 1 and you’re playing with a full band with bass player, give them the R.  FOH is going to EQ/Filter out your lows anyway - which tend to be more prominent on the L on many patches like  Piano, Electric Pianos, etc. 
 

 

[kwyn]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

No, L is L and R is R.  If you have to send FOH only 1 and you’re playing with a full band with bass player, give them the R.  FOH is going to EQ/Filter out your lows anyway - which tend to be more prominent on the L on many patches like  Piano, Electric Pianos, etc. 
 

 

Good to know!! 

[Stokely]

Unfortunately I wish it had a mono button on it...if I'm going mono to FOH I make sure to only plug in one side from each keyboard and send that side's main out.

That advice of sending the right seems to be common, but fair warning...I tried this on my MODX instead of sending the L(mono) and got some unfortunate results on certain patches where the right side was only part of the sound of the performance.   Not only the timbre but the volume was greatly reduced on a few.  Granted this was a spur of the moment thing, if I had planned for it I could have gone through all my patches to make sure that wouldn't happen.  Kind of a PITA though.

[kelp]

From the manual, 

 

"For mono keyboards, simply connect to the left input only – the Key-Largo will automatically route the signal to both the left and right outputs."

 

If your keyboard can generate the desired mono-summing...

[ElmerJFudd]

35 minutes ago, kelp said:

From the manual, 

 

"For mono keyboards, simply connect to the left input only – the Key-Largo will automatically route the signal to both the left and right outputs."

 

If your keyboard can generate the desired mono-summing...

Right, so then you choose your solution at the keyboard(s).   Do you use the L+R or the R only.  Because it’s so dependent on patch, you may be better off with the L+R and living with whatever phase issues are inherent with that decision.  If you know you’re playing a lot of piano parts from a specific keyboard and it sounds better from the R than the L+R on your main patch(es), then do that from just that  board. 
 

Then from the Keylargo it doesn’t matter if you give them L or R, it’s the same material on either side.  

[Docbop]

Came across this maybe someone has a close personal friend at Radial that can get them a loaner for testing.   It's a low end DI box that has a feature where it can take two instrument inputs and merge down to a mono output.  It called the Radial StageBug SB-1

 

Here's the bit in the FAQ on the SB-1 that caught my interest.....

 

Does the SB-1 accept a stereo input and merge the signal to mono?

Yes, The SB-1 is equipped with an auto-merge feature that will combine the left and right outputs of a keyboard or another stereo device. Simply connect the left and right outputs of your device to the Input and Tuner jacks.

[ElmerJFudd]

43 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Came across this maybe someone has a close personal friend at Radial that can get them a loaner for testing.   It's a low end DI box that has a feature where it can take two instrument inputs and merge down to a mono output.  It called the Radial StageBug SB-1

 

Here's the bit in the FAQ on the SB-1 that caught my interest.....

 

Does the SB-1 accept a stereo input and merge the signal to mono?

Yes, The SB-1 is equipped with an auto-merge feature that will combine the left and right outputs of a keyboard or another stereo device. Simply connect the left and right outputs of your device to the Input and Tuner jacks.

Sure, but this isn’t really any different than using the L+R on the keyboard.  Or hitting the mono button on your main outs on a mixer when you check to see if you have any phase cancellation issues.  It’s different every time for every patch designed to be in stereo, but then you put the two signals together… 

 

https://ledgernote.com/columns/mixing-mastering/phase-cancellation/

Nord has a switch on some of their keyboards that if I understand correctly (since they did the sampling work and the patch design) they have an algorithm that attempts to deal with the problem when collapsing to mono.  I honestly don’t know how well it works since I don’t own one.  But I’m not aware of any other manufacturer that has attempted it. If I had to guess they are using eq/filter and favoring one side over the other in certain frequency ranges. 🤷‍♂️ 
 

If one doesn’t notice the drop in volume on certain notes or ranges on the keyboard on different patches and it’s not bothersome, then just  ignore the topic unless it’s interesting. 

[JamPro]

I have always thought it was a horrible crime that modern digital pianos implement stereo to mimic what the pianist hears (low notes on the left; hi notes on the right).  This stereo sound field is of course entirely inappropriate when one is using a digital piano in a live performance - because the audience in a hall listening to an acoustic piano onstage do NOT hear all the low notes on the left and hi notes on the right, so you don't want your DP on stage putting out lo notes on the left and hi notes on the right.

 

There are some DP that provide different sample sets that do not put the lows on the left and the his on the right.

 

A second problem with sending the FOH only half of your stereo image is that it may mess with any reverb or other effects your keyboard uses.  In the soul-dance band I played in, the sound guy inadvertently flipped the phase switch on one of the mix board channels of the stereo pair receiving the stereo output of DP: what I was hearing was a piano sound that was very thin and lost entirely in deep reverb.  No matter what I did to the DP's reverb settings, it sounded horrible.  When the sound guy realized his mistake and set the mix board channels for the keyboards in phase, suddenly my DP sound was much better.

[Delaware Dave]

Question 1:  If you send stereo from your keyboard into your mixer (left channel 1 and right channel 2) but pan both channels hard left on mixer, does the signal that comes out of the left channel output of the mixer have a phase cancellation issue? 

 

Question 2: If I also send both those mixer channels to the aux out send does the mixed signal that comes out of the aux send also have a phase cancellation issue?

 

 

[Stokely]

I don't recall mono pianos on my Electro sounding much better than they do on most every other keyboard.  They had that same boxy, "honky" quality.   Modx, Forte, all the pianos in particular sound terrible in stereo I presume because they are stereo samples.   

JamPro, that sounds right on.  Every keyboard is *trying* to mimic the sound that the player gets if right in front of a real piano, but get a few feet away and there's no stereo from a single instrument.   It's very frustrating.   I recently picked up Hammersmith Pro on Soniccouture's big bundle sale, and one thing I was looking forward to was the mono mic recording...if it was good enough I'd consider bringing out a laptop just for that.  I'm very unhappy with any of the Modx pianos in mono, though the advice to use the non-CFX samples did help a bit.   Sadly the Hammersmith mono version wasn't my cup of tea.

Forte, not any better IMO in mono.   One sound guy (also a keys player) looked at the Forte after the show and said "that thing sounds weird."  And it did, in mono.

Organimation claims their piano is "mono compatible" but they want a bunch for it.   

All in all a very frustrating issue.   Most of our shows we use our PA and I run stereo, and monitor in stereo.  Unfortunately the higher profile gigs are the ones that invariably are sound companies that run their PAs mono.  I've never had one say they are stereo, our regular resort gig really can't be because they pipe the sound all over the place.   So it's something I'd like to find a happy place with.  Caveat: I'm going to try to do some recordings (off the mixer and out front too) to make sure my annoyance isn't mostly with my monitor mix.  I'm able to monitor all the mono instruments in stereo at the resort gig, as I have a P16m monitor mixer that works with their Behringer x32, so I don't think that is the problem.  I have keys a bit to the right, guitar a bit to the left etc.

Not to steal the spotlight from Dave's questions above, I'd be interested in answers to those.

[Docbop]

I wish I knew where my old Phil Spector  "Back to Mono" was it could be the cover art for this thread.     I remember the stink when Spector wanted to do the John Lennon Rock N Roll album in Mono.   That was the John Lennon session was at and heard about A&M told Spector no way and Spector insisted.  A&M we're also doing stereo and if you want to make it mono you can.  The album came out stereo.  

 

Have to say to witness and old style Spector session was amazing.  Six guitars, two basses, two drummers,  full horn section, I think two keyboards all crammed into one room recording live.   

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

11 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Question 1:  If you send stereo from your keyboard into your mixer (left channel 1 and right channel 2) but pan both channels hard left on mixer, does the signal that comes out of the left channel output of the mixer have a phase cancellation issue? 

 

Question 2: If I also send both those mixer channels to the aux out send does the mixed signal that comes out of the aux send also have a phase cancellation issue?

 

 

Whether or not there is a phase cancellation issue on a patch is dependent upon how it was made.  Is it an acoustic instrument that was sampled in stereo or was it sampled in mono?  Does the patch employ stereo fx like reverb, and does that increase the potential for the same waveform to overlap on L and R?  A lot of the electronic keyboard instruments we love from yesteryear have/had mono outs to begin with - mini moog, prophet 5, Wurlitzer, CP-80 which have two outputs for recording/mixing the tremolo effect.  

 

1. No, the left channel from your keyboard going into a mixer channel, panned hard left, and then grabbing the left main out will only contain wave forms from the left channel of your keyboard.  

 

2. Once the L and R signals from your keyboard are sent to a mono monitor or aux send the signals are being combined and there is potential for phase cancellation. 

 

 Sampled acoustic instruments sound better to us in stereo  with headphones or when listening on two monitors and sitting in the sweet spot.  In a perfect world, the keyboard manufacturers would include a lot more of their libraries sampled in mono on the pro boards.  

[Al Quinn]

The last time a sound company forced me to give them a mono feed I dialed up the mono AP on my CP4 and it sounded very good through their PA. I think that patch was created for that type of situation. Fortunately, AP was all I need for that gig.

[Delaware Dave]

...   

[DJkeys]

One of the reasons I purchased the KL-8 (besides the form factor) is that my Nord keyboards do not have a mono out.  But the KL-8 has a mono switch on the Main and Monitor outs that sums the L+R stereo signal to mono and sends it out either output.  If I just use L or R, I don't get the entire signal from my boards. 

 

-dj

[U.Honey]

18 minutes ago, DJKeys said:

One of the reasons I purchased the KL-8 (besides the form factor) is that my Nord keyboards do not have a mono out.  But the KL-8 has a mono switch on the Main and Monitor outs that sums the L+R stereo signal to mono and sends it out either output.  If I just use L or R, I don't get the entire signal from my boards. 

 

-dj

I don't know about other Nords but the Stage has mono out button, Shift + Panel A.

[ElmerJFudd]

6 hours ago, DJKeys said:

One of the reasons I purchased the KL-8 (besides the form factor) is that my Nord keyboards do not have a mono out.  But the KL-8 has a mono switch on the Main and Monitor outs that sums the L+R stereo signal to mono and sends it out either output.  If I just use L or R, I don't get the entire signal from my boards. 

 

-dj

This is a true.  This mono vs stereo debate always has a compromise.   Either you’re missing something from patches that are designed to be in stereo by choosing L or R, or you deal with phase cancellation when you put the L and R signals together.  Or in Nord’s case, they’ve attempted to use some filter and eq trickery, possibly timing - I just don’t know, honestly - in an attempt to skirt the problem on their stereo sampled patches.  
 

In the end we choose what sounds best to us.  Stereo amplification is ideal if you can sit in the sweet spot.  But if you must reduce to one speaker - test all options and take your pick.